Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

PAL just send Video of Gun Installation and putting back to the sea one of KCR60 (FAC 60) KRI Kerambit. I put the video in here, just to comment on the plan after the 6th KCR60, PAL will stop manufacturing this type of vessel.

More of the vessel type like this will be subcontract toward other Yards (either government owned or private ones), while PAL concentrate on larger types as OPV/Corvettes/Frigates.

This is part of plan to spread Government projects and revitalize other yards, as part overall development of Ship Building industry in Indonesia. Nice plan in paper, let's see how this developing.

 

[OPSSG]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1570602275856617472

Sometimes certain throw away comments really irritate me. This Indonesian has got to think a little — given that both India and Malaysia can service their own submarines and each have an existing facility — shouldn’t they be the Scorpene ‘MRO’ hubs (instead of Indonesia)? PT PAL should just focus on the TNI AL’s fleet needs.

The Malaysian Navy will NEVER be willing to send their 2 Scorpene submarines to Indonesia for work to be done. Likewise, the Indian Navy will NEVER be willing to send their 6 Scorpene submarines to Indonesia for work to be done.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1570602275856617472

Sometimes certain throw away comments really irritate me. This Indonesian has got to think a little — given that both India and Malaysia can service their own submarines and each have an existing facility — shouldn’t they be the Scorpene ‘MRO’ hubs (instead of Indonesia)? PT PAL should just focus on the TNI AL’s fleet needs.

The Malaysian Navy will NEVER be willing to send their 2 Scorpene submarines to Indonesia for work to be done. Likewise, the Indian Navy will NEVER be willing to send their 6 Scorpene submarines to Indonesia for work to be done.

Don't take it seriously.

It is not impossible that it will happen (Indonesia also had sent some C-130s to AIROD), but the chance that Malaysia will send its Scorpènes to PAL is smaller than that the Philippines really order some brandnew Scorpènes.

 

[STURM]

As it stands there is zero chance; given the shore support infrastructure the Malaysians have established to support their SSKs; plus the fact that they are able to perform not only routine maintenance but refits as well.

 

[Ananda]

Scorpene deal with NG and PAL still in MOU. There're not even finish calculation on the adjustment of PAL facility for Scorpene specs. Many Indonesian enthusiats seems 'conveniently' forgot PAL facility being prepared by DSME assistance for DSME 1400.

The only new project that already got clear money trail is Arrow 140 derivatives Frigates. No clear money trail yet for FREMM or Scorpene. PAL blue print on Submarine development still on DSME 1400 second batch. Thus no definitive decision yet on which next submarine project will be going to be. Whether stay with DSME or switch with NG as partner. Ironically if they stay with DSME, the fourth DSME 1400 already launch and 5th Submarine already in construction by this time around.

As usual I always wait for clear contract with money trail to back it up, on any Indonesian defense deal. Afterall Indonesian political commitment is cheap this days around. Money trails to back it up, is entirely different matter.

given the shore support infrastructure the Malaysians have established to support their SSKs; plus the fact that they are able to perform not only routine maintenance but refits as well.

Seems many Indonesian defense enthusiats not believing on that . Just like many Malaysian military enthusiast put down PAL Submarine facility. Trolling on each other military infrastructure is favorite sports between Indonesian-Malaysian defense online (mostly milenials) enthusiats .

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

For the people who are interested in old retired LSTs.
The South-Korean made Teluk-Semangka class LST KRI Teluk Penyu (513) and KRI Teluk Mandar (514) are for sale.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1570732559289683968

And according to KSAL Minta Nelayan Natuna Lapor ke Pangkalan AL jika Diadang Kapal Asing
....TNI-AL said that there are at least four warships on standby at all times in Natuna.

 

[tonnyc]

Follow up to the auction of decomissioned KRI Teluk Penyu and Teluk Mandar. Both were sold (Indonesian language press release.)

Rp5.547.038.000 untuk eks KRI Teluk Penyu-513 dan Rp5.890.290.000 untuk eks KRI Teluk Mandar-514

This is about the same as the minimum price mentioned above (US$370,190 and US$393,494 plus/minus a small number due to foreign exchange fluctuations).

Given the price I believe both are going to a scrapyard rather than going to another navy.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

So it seems that $21 million is reserved for a Pohang class corvette.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1573202268434108417

I have a little bit doubts about the procurement of a 30 years old second hand corvette....
Not only it is equipped with a GE LM2500 gasturbine, but also the weapons, sensors and CMS are old and from a kind which are never used by TNI-AL.

Big chance most equipment will be stripped off before delivery with exception of the guns.

 

[Arji]

What I'm curious about is why is the CNN Indonesia coverage of that news in Youtube has been privated?

 

[tonnyc]

So it seems that $21 million is reserved for a Pohang class corvette.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1573202268434108417

I have a little bit doubts about the procurement of a 30 years old second hand corvette....
Not only it is equipped with a GE LM2500 gasturbine, but also the weapons, sensors and CMS are old and from a kind which are never used by TNI-AL.

Big chance most equipment will be stripped off before delivery with exception of the guns.

Lembaga Keris may have misinterpreted the number 21.000,00 as $21 million. An alternative reading is that it's in million rupiah, which would put it at Rp21 billion or about $1.39 million. It would be very unusual for Indonesian defense budget tables to be denominated in thousand dollars.

@Arji If CNN Indonesia originally took Lembaga Keris' interpretation as correct and made a news coverage based on it, but then later found out that the $21 million assumption is not necessarily correct, it would make sense for CNN Indonesia to set the coverage as private or even delete it until they can be sure whether it's $21 million or Rp21 billion.

 

[Ananda]

I don't know where Keris quote that number come from. If this is still part of internal memo of Bapenas, then probably it is quotes in Million IDR. However if this part of official final version of DRPPLN (Bapenas Green Book) then it is quotes in Thousand USD.

DRPPLN talk on final proposed foreign sources credit line from Bapenas. Thus it is usual quote in thousand USD. You can take a look on previous DRPPLN that Bapenas already put in public domain to download. It's formatted in thousand USD.

Note that DRPPLN is not a done deal yet. It is can still be revised back or up by MoF. However mostly the number usually not that different. Still MoF can scratch out some particular financing items. However usually it is done due special circumstances or because some other financing need to be prioritize. It's already happening few times during COVID or other distress economics situations.

Also some more credit lines that being consider more 'political' sensitives can be 'side line' to come out on different timing.

That's I suspect why this year DRPPLN first iteration that come out in first half of this year only shown MinDef foreign credit line on those projects related to 'medical' procurement projects (due still in Covid consideration). Then they seems now shown 'revisions' DRPPLN for MinDef that already add some foreign credit line toward MinDef more 'defense' related procurement.

 

[koxinga]

I have a little bit doubts about the procurement of a 30 years old second hand corvette....
Not only it is equipped with a GE LM2500 gasturbine, but also the weapons, sensors and CMS are old and from a kind which are never used by TNI-AL.

Big chance most equipment will be stripped off before delivery with exception of the guns.

Look at TNI-AL's history (e.g the East Germany purchase or the Bung Tomo class), you know none of these will be a problem. Re GE LM2500 / WM-28 -> Mandau class FAC; LIROD is not new either.

However, it would look at this from the perspective of necessity. It would probably make more sense to invest in domestic OPV designs than buying 30 year old ships in small quantities. But then again, necessity in Indonesian context have different meanings as @Ananda would share.

PT LEN can be working on a CMS with Thales but it doesn't stop TNI from getting a CMS from Turkey, awarding contracts for Terma C-Guard CMS or giving Indra the work for upgrading the Fatahillah-class. The more the merrier.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Look at TNI-AL's history (e.g the East Germany purchase or the Bung Tomo class), you know none of these will be a problem. Re GE LM2500 / WM-28 -> Mandau class FAC; LIROD is not new either.

However, it would look at this from the perspective of necessity. It would probably make more sense to invest in domestic OPV designs than buying 30 year old ships in small quantities. But then again, necessity in Indonesian context have different meanings as @Ananda would share.

PT LEN can be working on a CMS with Thales but it doesn't stop TNI from getting a CMS from Turkey, awarding contracts for Terma C-Guard CMS or giving Indra the work for upgrading the Fatahillah-class. The more the merrier.

The first badges of the Pohang Class corvettes had indeed a lot of Hollandse Signaalapparaten stuff on board, but the corvettes available now are all from batch IV or later, which are equipped with other brands.

In my opinion getting one or two 30 years old second hand Pohangs is not logic and a waste of money, time and energy. Those $21 million could be better spent on MM40 Exocets, MICAs or fuel.

 

[Ananda]

PT LEN can be working on a CMS with Thales but it doesn't stop TNI from getting a CMS from Turkey, awarding contracts for Terma C-Guard CMS or giving Indra the work for upgrading the Fatahillah-class. The more the merrier.

"Why need to do standardized, it is illogical. The logic thing to do is to have more projects and more partners. Standardisation means limiting the scope of your projects partnership". Indonesian bureaucracy 101 handbook for project planning.

my opinion getting one or two 30 years old Pohangs is not logic and a waste of money, time and energy.

The key word is interim solution. So, interim fighters, interim surface ships, even if possible interim submarine. How to define what need to be done for interim solution is something must base on how to get more projects. Logic of standardisation, easiness on logistical Chain back to the hand book of project planning. Not a logical thing to do .

Seriously tough, there is some merit on interim solution. Considering some years are already wasted due to not doing proper implementation for new assets. Then again why need to get those interim solution toward what's logical from logistics PoV? Who cares on logistics... It's number of new projects that matters, even tough it is only for interim solution.

Again from handbook of Bureaucracy project planning (which officially don't exist)..

 

[ngatimozart]

Again from handbook of Bureaucracy project planning (which officially don't exist)..

Ah but if you have a handbook or manual, people will then expect you to follow the rules and procedures outlined therein. In some cases that could be highly problematic and you could be asked difficult questions which require answers that cannot be easily evaded.

 

[Ananda]

if you have a handbook or manual, people will then expect you to follow the rules and procedures outlined therein

Ahh but if this is only "mentally" unofficial unwritten handbook, then the 'top' in bureaucracy can evade questioning and can fall back to 'official' writen handbook. This is important to avoid giving something that can shown back in 'audit' trails. While in same time expect the subordination level knows when to follow the unofficial handbook and when must comeback to official ones.

 

[ngatimozart]

Ahh but if this is only "mentally" unofficial unwritten handbook, then the 'top' in bureaucracy can evade questioning and can fall back to 'official' writen handbook. This is important to avoid giving something that can shown back in 'audit' trails. While in same time expect the subordination level knows when to follow the unofficial handbook and when must comeback to official ones.

They're the best of the lot. @swerve 's mentor Sir Humphrey Appleby would very impressed.

 

[Ananda]

Ahh Sir Humphrey..this video below is one of my favorite of his deduction of what's government supposedly doing.

For me it is also shown how the bureaucracy keeping their sanity after has to deals with various politicians.

Say what you want with Sir Humphrey, honestly I believe he is efficient on keeping bureaucracy continue inefficient, to keep civil service sanity check running well.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1574842057134411796

Put it in here, as we know Twitter guy is 'Euro' sales agent. Thus he will got hints on how 'Euro' sales project progressing. This tweet on Gas Turbines operational concern, as being put by some ex TNI-AL brass like Admiral Sondakh, shown 'still" the concern on how TNI-AL can afford the 'fuel' on those gas turbines frigattes with present trend of operational budgets.

Some rumours also talk on diesel engine thinking also influences why Indonesia choose ex Nahkoda Ragam light frigattes, rather offer on ex Type 22.

However with this indication money trail being prepared for Gas Turbines equip ex ROKN corvettes, shown also 'seperate' thinking on how to manage operational budget. Perhaps some think it is ok to operate gas turbines for 'interim' solution. Or even 'perhaps' the thinking (this is just my speculation), just get that corvettes cheap and 'rengined' them with Diesel later on.

The last one is not without precedent, as with TNI-AL services reengined already happening before. All six Van Speijk Frigates were reengined and convert from Steam Turbines to Diesels. It will be more changes needed on power design on converting gas turbines to diesels. However talk with some ship yard people (granted mostly civilian yards), converting any power pack in the ships from one form to another is possible.

If he's right on delaying FREMM executional contract, asside from budget allocation schedulle, could this also part of 'redesign' ? Afterall the Arrow 140 design are more or less 'tweek' by Babcock and PAL for those being prepared for manufactured in PAL. So who knows if similar thing happen on FREMM.

Just my two cents.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1574842057134411796

Put it in here, as we know Twitter guy is 'Euro' sales agent. Thus he will got hints on how 'Euro' sales project progressing. This tweet on Gas Turbines operational concern, as being put by some ex TNI-AL brass like Admiral Sondakh, shown 'still" the concern on how TNI-AL can afford the 'fuel' on those gas turbines frigattes with present trend of operational budgets.

Some rumours also talk on diesel engine thinking also influences why Indonesia choose ex Nahkoda Ragam light frigattes, rather offer on ex Type 22.

However with this indication money trail being prepared for Gas Turbines equip ex ROKN corvettes, shown also 'seperate' thinking on how to manage operational budget. Perhaps some think it is ok to operate gas turbines for 'interim' solution. Or even 'perhaps' the thinking (this is just my speculation), just get that corvettes cheap and 'rengined' them with Diesel later on.

The last one is not without precedent, as with TNI-AL services reengined already happening before. All six Van Speijk Frigates were reengined and convert from Steam Turbines to Diesels. It will be more changes needed on power design on converting gas turbines to diesels. However talk with some ship yard people (granted mostly civilian yards), converting any power pack in the ships from one form to another is possible.

If he's right on delaying FREMM executional contract, asside from budget allocation schedulle, could this also part of 'redesign' ? Afterall the Arrow 140 design are more or less 'tweek' by Babcock and PAL for those being prepared for manufactured in PAL. So who knows if similar thing happen on FREMM.

Just my two cents.

The plan to buy a Pohang class corvette is almost like the plan to procure the Lübeck F122 Bremen Class frigate, a panic-move caused by years of doing nothing. Also the F122 Bremen Class frigates are CODOG warships from the same age. Refurbishment and installing new propulsion systems into a second hand Pohang class corvette can be much more than the $21 million.

The cheapest way is to keep the ship like the condition now, and only using the original diesel engines in it. Ofcourse the navy will get a slow 30 years old second hand corvette stripped off from Korean and American weapon systems and sensors, but it will be enough for the 5 October military parade to show the people how great this current administration is and how glorious and pro-rakyat the political party behind it is.

I don't have any knowledge about the design and construction of warships, but i expect modifying a design from CODOG to CODAD before the construction of the ship is more cost effective than removing the old propulsion systems + all wiring, tubing and supporting components and then designing and installing the new propulsion package.

In my opinion the procurement of a Pohang class corvette is only worth if Indonesia buy 3-4 of them, then fully refurbish/modify/modernise them while installing new propulsion, weapon-, sensor and CMS in order to replace the Fatahillah and Hajar Dewanara frigates and use them for 20-30 more years.