Fascinating.
Is the Millennium Gun an option as the main armament for the Arafura?
Regards,
Massive
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
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Is the Millennium Gun an option as the main armament for the Arafura?
Regards,
Massive
In the article they say the vertical build makes it easier to access and weld across/around 360 degrees. If it was horizontal then the overhead welding is more difficult. I also found the idea of inserting a pre fitted out frame into the hull form pretty smart. The frame inserts and braces/reinforces the hull but is about 70% fitted out before being inserted …which allows for simultaneous work to take place on the same hull section. A really modular build.
This pleases me.
As with many things with subs, peacetime loadout isn't terribly relevant. War time, you can do as you please. However Collins probably won't be an excellent sub killer in the 2040's, so giving them a mission beyond that is important and relevant is key. Subs with long range anti-shipping/land attack make enemy offensive planning very difficult. Launching volleys of 3-12 missiles from a magazine of say 30 is, significant. The US Sturgeon class subs, with only 4 tubes, used to carry ~8 Tomahawks. A fast transit diesel submarine isn't a huge disadvantage for this type of mission, particularly if they were operating out of the southern part of the South China Sea and able to cruise back under allied aircover.
While the US has significant tlam strike capability, its not the same as having that capability embedded into your force, particularly for defence. It also frees up a SSN for hunting duties and more aggressive missions.
Plus we are already acquiring TLAM, and the combat system is already integrated with it and we are already doing LOTE on Collins. Tiny outlay for potentially very significant strategic capability.
TLAM is pretty much the same dimensions and mass as a heavy torpedo. The US actually invested very significant time and effort to allow it to be fired from torpedo tubes. As it predated putting VLS on subs.
Don't get me wrong because I like the Millennium Gun, but why? It's 35mm calibre, designed for a role that the Arafura Class don't do, and expensive if you are using it for an unintended role. If that's the case you might as well put a Phalanx CIWS on the ship up fo'ard because that's what a Millennium Gun is. A 35mm revolver CIWS.
We await the verdict for the Arafura Classes main gun.
Pop gun or main gun!
The decision will somewhat indicate the governments expectations for this class of vessel.
If the Millenennium gun meets the expectations of Rheinmetall's sales pitch then this truly is a beast of a system.
Rheinmetall
Our air defence systems Oerlikon Millennium Gun, Oerlikon Searanger and Oerlikon Seaguard are specially adapted for layered naval air defence tasks.
www.rheinmetall-defence.com
It may have some appeal on the major fleet units but on the Arafura Class?????
Cheers S
Felt to me that Rheinmetall was positioning it as such.
Given the Arafura's stated role a 25mm gun could well be sufficient and potentially even overkill.
Regards,
Massive
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Could also be a contender for the Hunters, which has a requirement for 2x30mm Guns and 2x20mm CIWS(according to the RANs own site). Not a big step up to 35mm. On the first 12 Arafura OPVs you could argue that 25mm is an overkill but not so much for the follow up MCM/Hydro Vessels.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
As far as I have been able to determine, the Millennium Gun is a single barrel 35 mm gun, as opposed to multi-barrel rotary guns like Goalkeeper or Phalanx, and has multiple fire modes (single shot, burst, and rapid single shot) and with a variety of munitions options can perform anti-air/missile and anti-surface CIWS duties. Being a 35 mm round, IIRC it also has a somewhat longer/further max effective range when compared to the 20 mm Mk 15 Phalanx, even the newer versions with the longer barrels and firing the newer, heavier 20 mm rounds. Again IIRC, the max effective range in an anti-air/missile role is something like 3 km or 4 km.
A few other things to consider. IMO it is potentially very worthwhile for the RAN rationalize the type and number of different small calibre guns used across the fleet. If properly executed, such a rationalization should enable the RAN to meet or perhaps even exceed the current small calibre gun capabilities, whilst reducing the training, maintenance and logistical support across the fleet. Instead of needing train one pool of personnel to support/operate a 25 mm gun fitted to the Arafura-class OPV, another pool of trainees for the 30 mm guns aboard the Hunter-class, a third group to operate, service and support the Mk 15 Phalanxes, and so on... there could be one common pool of trainees and then crew, who could support and operate a gun (using a common interface) whether they were aboard an OPV, FFG or DDG.
If there was to be movement towards a common, fleet-wide small calibre gun, then IMO it would also make sense to select a gun which is reasonably capable at providing multiple options and covering multiple types of targets/contingencies.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
And it sits smack bang in the middle for the RANs original requirement of 40mm for the Arafura's(12) and 30mm for the Hunters(18) and those requirements could be for up to 40 guns if you throw in the follow up MCM/Hydro ships as well. Certainly plenty of advantages going with a single calibre unless the RAN decides to go all the way to 57mm.
Going Boeing
Well-Known Member
It appears that the Brit’s are having problems on their first Type 26 with deformation of some welds. They are blaming temperature changes caused by building it outside. It looks like the building of the large assembly building at Osborne for the RAN’s Hunter class frigates was a good investment and, being forewarned, they should not encounter these problems.
UK Defence Journal Type 26 Weld Deformation
UK Defence Journal Type 26 Weld Deformation
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Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Any temperature issues in Adelaide would the opposite to Scotland though, milder winters and hot summers as against cold winters and mild summers in Scotland.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Add in the potential to replace Typhoon mountings with 25 mm Bushmasters provided the mounting area can support the increased mass and that number expands even further across the fleet. If the electronics, sensors and CMS of the RAN's amphibs and support vessels can manage it, Millennium Guns could also potentially replace Mk 15 Phalanx as self-defence options for the Canberra- and Supply-classes.
If done correctly, a set of single training, logistics, maintenance and support streams could be operated to support current and future RAN small calibre gun needs. IIRC current plans require five different ones to accommodate the different calibre rounds used, the different guns, and the various mountings across the current and as of now planned for fleet. Part of what gets me about this is that the and variety of capabilities the current mix of small calibre guns is IMO rather limited, with only the Mk 15 Phalanx really providing any sort of CIWS capability vs. aerial threats or inbound missiles. Everything else is really only appropriate for use vs. smallcraft. Me being me, I would much rather there be a dual or multi-use gun which can add an additional layer of close-in air defence, rather than only being able to destroy hostile FAC's.
As for the Mk 110 57 mm gun being adopted... the only way that might make any sense (IMO at least) was if the RAN were to decide to start having a third class of MFU start entering RAN service as a GP frigate to both accelerate the replacement of the ANZAC-class FFH's and over all increase the number of MFU's in RAN service beyond the currently planned for dozen. If (very very big IF) this were to happen, and then the RAN were to select an Australian or Australianized-version of the USN's planned Constellation-class frigates, then having the design retain the Mk 110 and having a new gun brought into RAN service might make some sense. Otherwise the Mk 110 is really too large to be a small calibre gun, whilst also being rather on the small side for a main naval gun.
Side note: For me, I do see potential value in the RAN adding a third class of major warship into the planned fleet, providing the planning and implementation is done properly. However, unless/until the RAN, ADF, or AusGov provides some sort of indication that the should or will be expanded beyond a dozen majors, I do not wish to encourage 'fantasy fleet' building. If members are interested, I can put forth my ideas on why it might be a good idea, but I really do not wish to restart any of the, "The RAN should get NN vessels of XX-class..."-type discussions.
I’m certainly interested in how this would fit into an overall fleet mix. To my ignorant mind I think that the current plan gives us a good High-Low mix of capabilities between the Hunter and Arafura hull forms.
I am very sympathetic to your thoughts about rationalising small calibre guns and I think that equally (perhaps more so) applies to shipbuilding. We’re a midsized power who wants to build our own ships and so we need to take economies and diseconomies of scale very seriously as we can see in the state of the number of MFUs available in the next few years that this has very real capability costs for us.
My view is that if you want more MFUs, you should crank out Hunters as quickly as possible. They are going to be beasts by all accounts and we should produce as many of them as possible as efficiently as possible.
But as I said this is my ignorant view. I’d be very keen to hear what something in the 4-6000 tonne range would bring that we can’t get from more (and possibly cheaper) Hunters or OPVs.
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According to Defence Technology review the gun for the Hunter has been selected.
DTR MAY 2022 (partica.online)
Sorry this is a subscription mag but it is pretty simple to access. DTR state that BAE have identified Rafael as the preferred tenderer with the Mk-30c (Using the M Bushmaster II 30mm chain gun). The mount is supposed to be capable of firing a range of ammunition types and the article indicates the Rafael are looking to integrate Spike ER on the mount (nice idea and would be better if this was more than something to look at).
The Toplite electro-optic fire control will be fitted which the same as used on the current 25mm Typhoon systems.
If this mount is confirmed it would be quite useful on the Hunters and the Arafura with a lot of commonality with the current system. The article indicates that this mount will be offered when the RFT for the Arafura gun comes out.
On the Millennium gun as a CIWS, I would prefer SEARam given it has quite a bit of commonality with Phalanx and offers another layer of defence a bit further out.
DTR MAY 2022 (partica.online)
Sorry this is a subscription mag but it is pretty simple to access. DTR state that BAE have identified Rafael as the preferred tenderer with the Mk-30c (Using the M Bushmaster II 30mm chain gun). The mount is supposed to be capable of firing a range of ammunition types and the article indicates the Rafael are looking to integrate Spike ER on the mount (nice idea and would be better if this was more than something to look at).
The Toplite electro-optic fire control will be fitted which the same as used on the current 25mm Typhoon systems.
If this mount is confirmed it would be quite useful on the Hunters and the Arafura with a lot of commonality with the current system. The article indicates that this mount will be offered when the RFT for the Arafura gun comes out.
On the Millennium gun as a CIWS, I would prefer SEARam given it has quite a bit of commonality with Phalanx and offers another layer of defence a bit further out.
Rock the kasbah
Active Member
This is a bit O/T
It's a legit question about the elephant in the room
Recently on mainstream media a CCP spy ship navigated close to a RAN base.
It was reported that this base is involved with submarines
It was also reported that the name of the base is the R.Hon. Harold Holt.
What came first, the chicken or the egg?
It's a legit question about the elephant in the room
Recently on mainstream media a CCP spy ship navigated close to a RAN base.
It was reported that this base is involved with submarines
It was also reported that the name of the base is the R.Hon. Harold Holt.
What came first, the chicken or the egg?
The Mk-30c is safe choice for some close in defence against some threats.
It is not a close in weapon system against missiles.
Relatively light weight and inexpensive, it shares some of the components of the older 25mm Typhoon.
Whats not to like!
Well it does take up space on weight, so the question I have is, do these type of systems have a place on modern combat ship going forward?
If we go with this weapon system, then explore what the system offers and that is utilizing its ability to also mount small ATGM's and SAM's.
As ALEXSA mentions the Rolling Airframe Missile offers another layer of defence further out.
Maybe the two systems together offer a good range of options for inner defence.
However!
My thought is why would you go with a slow rate of fire 30 mm if you could go with a higher rate of fire 35 or 40 mm on a 8000t ship.
Cheers S
Harold E Holt is a VLF radio station established by the RAN and USN in the 60s to communicate with submerged submarines. For many years it was jointly manned on a roughly 50/50 basis but for the last 20 or more it has been run by contractors for the RAN. I know we don’t normally reference Wikipedia, but in this case it has a fairly comprehensive article on the place, if you ignore the guff about interference with aircraft systems.
Seeing a Chinese elint ship sail up the coast, behaving perfectly legitimately is neither surprising nor even new; it has happened a number of times in the past.
Seeing a Chinese elint ship sail up the coast, behaving perfectly legitimately is neither surprising nor even new; it has happened a number of times in the past.
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Going Boeing
Well-Known Member
If my info is correct, the reason that the US pulled out of the joint operation at Harold E Holt was because they switched to ELF for submerged submarine communication which has worldwide coverage from a single transmitter in the US. The Exmouth VLF transmitter is perfectly located for coverage of the RAN’s area of operation.
There have been a few “incidents“ on commercial fly-by-wire airliners that some sources blame on this transmitter but all the subsequent investigations have failed to find a link.
would love to see bae williamstown flattened and rebuilt. Was a great yard back in the day, hopefully they Can do some major shipbuilding in that location in the future. Would be the Perfect size yard to build opvs and other smaller vessels etc, let wa focus on the proposed big ships.
The US are still involved and use the facility and capabilities, an agreement was signed in 2008
Australia-United States: Exchange of letters relating to Harold E. Holt Naval Communications Station AUSMIN 2010 | Australian Government Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (dfat.gov.au)
Microsoft Word - 11-1124 - Australia Defense Naval Comm Sta.docx (state.gov)
Cheers