Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[76mmGuns]

One thing most of us amateurs miss is not understanding how the long & deep VLS are, and thus they don't fit into the warship like we think.

VLS's are really long and straight.

Warship cross sections are not.

They usually become very narrow the "lower" you go. So the ship is not wide enough to accommodate the VLS, even though the deck view shows lots of horizontal space.

https://media-s3-us-east-1.ceros.com/lockheed-martin/images/2019/09/03/f3e183db5c4dc035493050a9eb2fabf0/lcs-interactive-vls.jpg

I couldn't find anything on google showing an exact cross section diagram with VLS and ship, this LCS pic was the only thing coming close to what I'm trying to explain.

Hope this helps.

 

[ngatimozart]

One thing most of us amateurs miss is not understanding how the long & deep VLS are, and thus they don't fit into the warship like we think.

VLS's are really long and straight.

Warship cross sections are not.

They usually become very narrow the "lower" you go. So the ship is not wide enough to accommodate the VLS, even though the deck view shows lots of horizontal space.

https://media-s3-us-east-1.ceros.com/lockheed-martin/images/2019/09/03/f3e183db5c4dc035493050a9eb2fabf0/lcs-interactive-vls.jpg

I couldn't find anything on google showing an exact cross section diagram with VLS and ship, this LCS pic was the only thing coming close to what I'm trying to explain.

Hope this helps.

Here's some Mk-41 VLS info.

Source: What is the Mk-41 Vertical Launching System (VLS)? — Steemit


Naval VLS solutions | Page 2 | DefenceHub | Global Military Forum


Mk-41 Vertical Launching System VLS Missile Tomahawk ESSM (seaforces.org)
A missile canister was loaded into the aft Mk-41 VLS aboard USS Benfold (DDG 65) (Click on image for full size.)

These images from various sources will give an idea and it didn't take me long to find them. The first two give the dimensions of the VLS themselves, and the last one shows a canister being loaded aboard a DDG. You can see how long the cannister is by comparing it to the sailors working with it, so that tells me that the VLS system takes up three decks.

 

[Going Boeing]

Much of the computing power and control of the radar certainly mounted lower in the hull but as to the comment about wave guides. Just remind me. why would they have wave guides Wave guides when the TR units are an integral part of the actual mast mounted antenna?

I’m no expert on these radars but from what I’ve read in the public domain, the T/R units are integral with the mast mounted antenna on the CEAFAR system but not on the SPY system as fitted to the AWD’s. It is difficult to get the specific information but the following article does mention the wave guides.
”The shipboard FCS equipment set consists of Continuous Wave Illuminator (CWI) elements, waveguide elements between the transmitter and antenna, and two (2) data conversion cabinets (DCCs)”

Search Results: Procurement Synopsis Database

 

[spoz]

HMAS Encounter III will be commissioned this afternoon as the Navy’s shore establishment in SA.

 

[76mmGuns]

Source: What is the Mk-41 Vertical Launching System (VLS)? — Steemit

View attachment 49377
Naval VLS solutions | Page 2 | DefenceHub | Global Military Forum

View attachment 49378
Mk-41 Vertical Launching System VLS Missile Tomahawk ESSM (seaforces.org)
A missile canister was loaded into the aft Mk-41 VLS aboard USS Benfold (DDG 65) (Click on image for full size.)

These images from various sources will give an idea and it didn't take me long to find them. The first two give the dimensions of the VLS themselves, and the last one shows a canister being loaded aboard a DDG. You can see how long the cannister is by comparing it to the sailors working with it, so that tells me that the VLS system takes up three decks.

Hi

Thanks for the effort. Yes, saw plenty of those pics. But what I meant was not a pic of the VLS, but a front view showing the tapering outline of the warship, with the rectangular VLS inside. As you get "lower down", depending on how many VLS you have, the bottom of the VLS can even "stick out" the sides of the ship.

 

[ngatimozart]

Hi

Thanks for the effort. Yes, saw plenty of those pics. But what I meant was not a pic of the VLS, but a front view showing the tapering outline of the warship, with the rectangular VLS inside. As you get "lower down", depending on how many VLS you have, the bottom of the VLS can even "stick out" the sides of the ship.

I very much doubt that you would ever see a VLS, as you put it "sticking out the the sides of ships". That is not how it's done and would cause all sorts of problems.

 

[Redlands18]

HMAS Encounter III will be commissioned this afternoon as the Navy’s shore establishment in SA.

At its original spot or has it been moved to Osborne? Having a fulltime Naval base at Osborne would make sense.

 

[spoz]

Currently at Keswick, they are building new premises at Osborne but I’m not aware of when it’s due to be completed.

 

[oldsig127]

I very much doubt that you would ever see a VLS, as you put it "sticking out the the sides of ships". That is not how it's done and would cause all sorts of problems.

@Ng, I don't think he meant literally, but that if you overplayed a cross sectional elevation of a Mk41 on a similarly scaled section of a ship in many of the more, er, fantastical, locations suggested, the bottom would be sticking out.

oldsig

 

[Going Boeing]

I very much doubt that you would ever see a VLS, as you put it "sticking out the the sides of ships". That is not how it's done and would cause all sorts of problems.

Like you, I don’t expect to see missile launchers “sticking out the sides of ships” but the new EJECT concept from Northrop Grumman should allow some flexibility with locations around the vessel due to the booster exhaust plume starting after the missile is clear of the ship. It’s an interesting concept which could be available for later Hunter batches.

National Interest Northrop Grumman EJECT

 

[ngatimozart]

Like you, I don’t expect to see missile launchers “sticking out the sides of ships” but the new EJECT concept from Northrop Grumman should allow some flexibility with locations around the vessel due to the booster exhaust plume starting after the missile is clear of the ship. It’s an interesting concept which could be available for later Hunter batches.

National Interest Northrop Grumman EJECT

There is a new VLS concept that saw a while back where the siloes were along the outboard side of the ship instead of along the centre line. They were also larger than the Mk-41 silo. I shall have to see if I can find it again, but at the time I thought to myself; I wonder if an at sea reload capability could be built into it.

 

[Morgo]

There is a new VLS concept that saw a while back where the siloes were along the outboard side of the ship instead of along the centre line. They were also larger than the Mk-41 silo. I shall have to see if I can find it again, but at the time I thought to myself; I wonder if an at sea reload capability could be built into it.

Do you mean the Mk 57 on the Zumwalt per the attached doc?

 

[Takao]

There is a new VLS concept that saw a while back where the siloes were along the outboard side of the ship instead of along the centre line. They were also larger than the Mk-41 silo. I shall have to see if I can find it again, but at the time I thought to myself; I wonder if an at sea reload capability could be built into it.

USS Zumwalt has the Mk 57 Peripheral VLS.

Mk-57 Peripheral Vertical Launching System PVLS Zumwalt DDG

mk-57 vertical launching system vls peripheral zumwalt class ddg

www.seaforces.org

 

[ngatimozart]

Do you mean the Mk 57 on the Zumwalt per the attached doc?

USS Zumwalt has the Mk 57 Peripheral VLS.

Mk-57 Peripheral Vertical Launching System PVLS Zumwalt DDG

mk-57 vertical launching system vls peripheral zumwalt class ddg

www.seaforces.org

Thanks, yep that's one.

 

[CJR]

I very much doubt that you would ever see a VLS, as you put it "sticking out the the sides of ships". That is not how it's done and would cause all sorts of problems.

Not with a Mk 41... But with a Mk48 (or maybe the Mk56?) you could do a hanger-side install ala the Karel Doorman-class.

 

[hauritz]

With all this talk of missiles it is easy to forget that the primary mission of the ship is still advertised as ASW. The torpedoes will be the MU90 for ship launched and the Mark 54 for the Romeos.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I could explain why they are using two different lightweight torpedoes?

In particular why the MU90 given that seems to cost more than twice as much as the US torpedo.

I note that the MU90 does seem to have slightly greater range but the Mark 54 can also be delivered using ASROC if necessary.

 

[Takao]

With all this talk of missiles it is easy to forget that the primary mission of the ship is still advertised as ASW. The torpedoes will be the MU90 for ship launched and the Mark 54 for the Romeos.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I could explain why they are using two different lightweight torpedoes?

In particular why the MU90 given that seems to cost more than twice as much as the US torpedo.

I note that the MU90 does seem to have slightly greater range but the Mark 54 can also be delivered using ASROC if necessary.

Because the MU90 is crazy expensive, individually and to integrate.

Originally P-3's, SH-60s and SH-2s would have MU90. Noting the USN (and they were all USN platforms) use the Mk-54, it meant we had to pay for the integration. The SH-2's were obviously scrapped, and then (see individual cost and add in timeline and capability questions), it was cheaper to stick with the Mk-54 for the USN platforms. When we bought the P-8 and the MH-60R it was deemed smarter to just use the Mk-54.

The MU90 got its own ANAO report.

 

[Volkodav]

Any temperature issues in Adelaide would the opposite to Scotland though, milder winters and hot summers as against cold winters and mild summers in Scotland.

Consolidation is done after midnight usually in most modern yards, it gives the blocks time to cool and stabilise dimensionally, while leaving several hours to weld before thermal expansion starts throwing everything out of whack. Carefully planned weld sequencing can minimise distortion and was one of the things ASC worked very hard on with the Hobarts with extensive input from Lloyds and BIW, as well as their own highly experienced team of structural and welding engineers.

 

[Volkodav]

would love to see bae williamstown flattened and rebuilt. Was a great yard back in the day, hopefully they Can do some major shipbuilding in that location in the future. Would be the Perfect size yard to build opvs and other smaller vessels etc, let wa focus on the proposed big ships.

To be honest there would be more value and versatility in reclaiming land and joining Cockatoo Island to the shore with a series of covered building docks and hardstands. Then again why? It would be hideously expensive and provide nothing existing facilities in SA and WA couldn't provide at far less cost.

One of the stupid pointless things about Australian shipbuilding has been divvying up work between states, even shutting down operations in one place, in favour of another for purely parochial reasons. This results in what could have been an economical and efficient strategic national shipbuilding capability in one location, be diluted, shut down and moved, multiple times over several decades. Instead of generations of institutional knowledge from continuous builds in economical numbers we run things down, rebuild, shut things down, relocate and build new, over and over.

Stop using it for pork barrelling and start treating it like the strategic capability it is. Do not bleed dry or shut down any more existing operations, rather be smart and invest in optimising them to best fit the nations strategic needs.

 

[Volkodav]

I'm not sure Adelaide over Melbourne is a selling point for attracting and keeping top level staff. Regardless of property prices.

That's a bit ignorant and insulting to all the top level staff who have lived and worked in Adelaide for years. Adelaide already had a lot of very good people from the submarine project, then when ASC won the destroyer program a lot of people moved there from Sydney and Melbourne, as well as from overseas, I know this because I worked with them. Also a great many people moved from automotive engineering to shipbuilding, I know this because I was one of them. ASC / BAE is now training the children of employees, there are top level people there retiring after over 30 years of working for ASC in Adelaide, i.e. most of their careers, the people they trained from mid career are now in senior roles.

Maybe you can explain to the top people they need to move to Melbourne because there aren't any top people in Adelaide. Take your parochial BS elsewhere.