Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Sandhi Yudha]

KRI Semarang 594, the temporary hospital ship, is now also been sent to the crashsite of the Sriwijaya Air Boeing PK-CLC. It can not only operate on sea for a long period, but this article explains it has a "mobile chamber". I think they mean a decompression room/hyperbaric chamber, because it is for the divers.

Punya Mobile Chamber, KRI Semarang Dikerahkan ke Titik Jatuhnya Sriwijaya Air

"Penyelaman dalam itu harus masuk ke ruang chamber. Chamber itu pemulihan lagi kondisi biar kita nggak kena barotrauma," jelas Voni Seprian.

news.detik.com

 

[Ananda]

Indonesian Naval Divers (Kopaska) underwater Cam on the debris of Sriwijaya Air wreckage. Since the Navy and SAR are the leads on the recovery effort, I put it in this thread.

Any development in finding of accident from Indonesian Aviation Safety, I will put later on in General Aviation thread.

Just my post in GA thread yesterday, the underwater Cam video shown the wreckage already scattered and in pieces. Indicating this is high impact crash to the sea. Further data also shown the dive is less then a minute. Thus sudden lost of control seems indicating that.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

At last, a video about the launch of the first hospitalship.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1018353621979645

And now this...
Our beloved Menteri Koordinator (Menko) Bidang Kemaritiman dan Investasi Luhut Binsar Pandjaitan (Coordinating Minister of Everything), is visibly really happy, after the cancellation last year he can now meet at last his masters.

Menko Luhut Terima Menlu China Wi Yang di Danau Toba, Bahas Apa?

Menteri Koordinator Bidang Kemaritiman dan Investasi, Luhut Binsar Pandjaitan menerima kunjungan dari Menteri Luar Negeri Republik Rakyat Tiongkok (RRT) Wang Yi di Parapat, Sumatera Utara.

m.liputan6.com

 

[Ananda]

Berita Terkini, Berita Hari Ini Indonesia dan Dunia | tempo.co

bisnis.tempo.co

Tempo article on Indonesian Coast Guard intercept Chinese Research vessels around Sunda Strait. Seems when many Indonesian Navy and Coast Guard assets on the work helping evacuation of Sriwijaya Air remains, one if them slip away. The route actually open to International Ships, however they have to engage their Automatic Indentified System (AIS). The Ship however disengage their AIS system, that prompt Coast Guard to look and intercept them.

This similar with an Airplane disengage the transponder. Making this ship doing somewhat "black" sailing. I don't know why some people in Indonesia (even in Parliament and Political circles) still think China intentions is benign. Basically with the underwater drone incidents, and action like this from their surface 'research' vessels shown their intentions to fully mapping the maritime routes (surface and underwater). If there's people that still think this is benign or for commercial purpose only, then they're delusional.

 

[tonnyc]

Berita Terkini, Berita Hari Ini Indonesia dan Dunia | tempo.co

bisnis.tempo.co

Tempo article on Indonesian Coast Guard intercept Chinese Research vessels around Sunda Strait. Seems when many Indonesian Navy and Coast Guard assets on the work helping evacuation of Sriwijaya Air remains, one if them slip away. The route actually open to International Ships, however they have to engage their Automatic Indentified System (AIS). The Ship however disengage their AIS system, that prompt Coast Guard to look and intercept them.

Note for other readers: The picture in the article is NOT a picture of the ship in question. That's just a random fishing boat used for illustration. Xiang Yang Hong 03 is this.

There's a bunch of hydrographic survey ships of similar models all named Xiang Yang Hong followed by a number designation. Searching at Baidu for 向阳红 and manually identifying the ships, I'm seeing 01, 03, 06, 08, 09, 10, 12, 18, 22, 28, 52, 81, and I stopped looking. Not all of them are deep sea survey ship. Xiang Yang Hong 52 for example is significantly smaller than 03. But all of them are survey ships. So if you hear about a ship named Xiang Yang Hong and it's current news, chances are it's a Chinese survey ship.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

In this article we can see a map with some positions of Xiang Yang Hong 03 in the period of the last two months.

Chinese Survey Ship Caught ‘Running Dark’ Give Clues to Underwater Drone Operations - USNI News

A Chinese government survey ship was intercepted “running dark” without broadcasting its position via AIS (Automated Information System by Indonesian officials. The incident is latest twist in an ongoing maritime saga which has also seen Chinese uncrewed underwater vehicles (UUVs) found in...

news.usni.org

 

[ngatimozart]

It doesn't surprise me. Be a real shame if it got boarded and arrested for breaking Indonesian law.

 

[Ananda]

doesn't surprise me. Be a real shame if it got boarded and arrested for breaking Indonesian law.

I'm no expert in International Maritime law, however as far as I know if they're still in ALKI corridor (the corridor within Indonesia archipelago that's open for International traffic), they can't being boarded.

The problem as far as I got from Indonesian Coast Guard (Bakamla) report, that ship still in ALKI corridor. It just they're disengage their AIS recognition system. From Indonesian media, I read they're claiming they have problem with their AIS system. Disengage AIS just like an airplane disengage the transponder. Thus it's against the law, but usually not in deemed to boarded or force to land (in case for Airplane), as long as they stay in corridor set for International traffic. For that usually the Coast Guard or Navy just escort them out from Indonesian water and EEZ.

Unless they are caught red handed or have enough evidence doing illegal activities on Indonesian waters. So far this ship can only been proved disengage AIS, but the rest still as innocent passage.

Still off course nothing innocent on that, but still not proven. So I guess some Chinese friend in Political circle will tone down this incidents. Hope people that responsible for defense didn't see that as just innocent and benign activities.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Of course this is not a contract, or even a MoU, but it clearly shows that France is really active in offering their defence equipment.

 

[Ananda]

La Fayette ? Well seems it's answer the question which second hand Frigate they're (MinDef) aiming for. Is more make sense then second hand Bremen, it's still CODAD. Question is how many Lafayette that French will decom? They are going to replace Lafayette with Belhara (FTI), while there's talk on French to keep and upgaming some of the Lafayette.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

La Fayette ? Well seems it's answer the question which second hand Frigate they're (MinDef) aiming for. Is more make sense then second hand Bremen, it's still CODAD. Question is how many Lafayette that French will decom? They are going to replace Lafayette with Belhara (FTI), while there's talk on French to keep and upgaming some of the Lafayette.

Yes, its a better candidate than the single F122 Bremen class frigate. The La Fayettes are 6-11 years younger, more advanced, CODAD and are already equipped with the MM40 Exocet.

The negative points are that the Crotale SAM is obsolete now and parts of the superstructure are built using radar-absorbent synthetic materials or have been coated in radar-absorbent paint. TNI-AL doesnt have experience with this, and maybe this makes maintenance more complicate and expensive.

These are just plans, and big chance that nothing will happen ntil 2024, but France plans to give 3 of the 5 La Fayette frigates a midlife-update, that means 2 will be retired, so i think that TNI-AL could only get 2 frigates.

 

[Ananda]

These are just plans, and big chance that nothing will happen ntil 2024, but France plans to give 3 of the 5 La Fayette frigates a midlife-update, that means 2 will be retired, so i think that TNI-AL could only get 2 frigates

They try to get at least 6 Van Speijk replacement program going before 2024. Two of Sigma PKR already there, thus at least 2 Van Speijk can be replace. The 2 Iver program, well as preliminary contract already sign, then seems it has potential to go ahead. If this Lafayette talk are the ones being talk as second hand Frigate as stop gap, then even only 2 combine with PKR and Iver based Frigates, it will be enough at least to roll Van Speijk replacement.

negative points are that the Crotale SAM is obsolete now and parts of the superstructure are built using radar-absorbent synthetic materials or have been coated in radar-absorbent paint.

That MoI including the article for Lifetime Upgrade and Modifications. VL MICA already use for PKR and seems the VLS on Bung Tomo class will be use for VL MICA too. There's space in Lafayette that even French set asside for VLS, thus it's not improbable to put VL MICA there too. After all it's MBDA origin missile, which seems TNI-AL now shown more and more as preference for their missile.

In paper upgrading Lafayette is still better then upgrading other potential second hand Frigate from other Euro market.

 

[swerve]

I don't know if it'd be worth it, but I'm sure that it should be feasible to fit Mica-VL to the Lafayettes. As you say, they're reported to have been designed with space for VLS, & both the enlarged Saudi version & the slightly smaller Singapore Formidable class have Sylver & Aster. The upgraded Mica NG missile, with extended range, has a launch customer, & it'd make sense for current Mica-VL operators to phase that in.

 

[alexsa]

I'm no expert in International Maritime law, however as far as I know if they're still in ALKI corridor (the corridor within Indonesia archipelago that's open for International traffic), they can't being boarded.

The problem as far as I got from Indonesian Coast Guard (Bakamla) report, that ship still in ALKI corridor. It just they're disengage their AIS recognition system. From Indonesian media, I read they're claiming they have problem with their AIS system. Disengage AIS just like an airplane disengage the transponder. Thus it's against the law, but usually not in deemed to boarded or force to land (in case for Airplane), as long as they stay in corridor set for International traffic. For that usually the Coast Guard or Navy just escort them out from Indonesian water and EEZ.

Unless they are caught red handed or have enough evidence doing illegal activities on Indonesian waters. So far this ship can only been proved disengage AIS, but the rest still as innocent passage.

Still off course nothing innocent on that, but still not proven. So I guess some Chinese friend in Political circle will tone down this incidents. Hope people that responsible for defense didn't see that as just innocent and benign activities.

Actually there may be an issue here as SOLAS require AIS to be on except in specific circumstances. AIS was primarily adopted as a collision avoidance systems but has evolved for additional functions. However, the prime function remains.

There is no excuse for switching off Navigation Lights under COLREGS.

Added to this innocent passage is subject to a some limitations in UNCLOS. Innocent passage does not apply if you are headed to or from a port of the coastal state. When transiting passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal state. A vessel in innocent passage may traverse the coastal state’s territorial sea continuously and expeditiously, not stopping or anchoring except in force majeure situations.

The scope of the territorial sea is 12nm from the baseline but there are variations for how archipelagic states define the baseline.

UNCLOS gives examples of what is non-innocent is provided in article 19(4) of UNCLOS and includes a number of items that a research ship needs to be careful of ...
(a) any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State, or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations;
(b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;
(c) any act aimed at collecting information to the prejudice of the defence or security of the coastal State;
(d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State;
(e) the launching, landing or taking on board of any aircraft;
(f) the launching, landing or taking on board of any military device;
(g) the loading or unloading of any commodity, currency or person contrary to the customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal State;
(h) any act of wilful and serious pollution contrary to this Convention;
(i) any fishing activities;
(j) the carrying out of research or survey activities;
(k) any act aimed at interfering with any systems of communication or any other facilities or installations of the coastal State;
(l) any other activity not having a direct bearing on passage.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

A new strange unidentified device found in Indonesian waters.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351872996424654848

Benda Mirip Rudal Bertuliskan China Ditemukan di Anambas Kepri

Warga di Kecamatan Siantan Timur, Kabupaten Kepulauan Anambas, Provinsi Kepri, dihebohkan oleh penemuan benda misterius menyerupai rudal.

news.detik.com

I dont know what this is, but these links tell us two things:
1. This device looks very chinese.
2. Those brainless locals try to disassemble and 'analyse' it by themself.

 

[Ananda]

don't know if it'd be worth it, but I'm sure that it should be feasible to fit Mica-VL to the Lafayettes

Correct me if I'm wrong, however from what I read on Lafayette class, it's from beginning was prepared by French for further upgrade capabilities if the need arises.

As whether worth it ? Well the French do plan to upgrade 3 from 5 Lafayette. Thus seems the other two are open to transfer, which reflect the MOI. Compared to other potential second hand Frigates from Euro Market, it's still worth in my opinion. It's coming from 90's, compared to others potential that mostly from 80's.

Indonesian Navy during SBY era asside new Sigma build Corvettes and Light Frigates, also taking over ex Brunai's Nahkoda Ragam Corvettes. Granted the condition of those Corvettes were actually haven't been used, but the technology wise they're not much different from Lafayette's.

Yesterday I take a peek on some local forums or Indonesian defense related forums. Read some forumers that complain, if second hand Frigates going to be choose as part of stop gap, why not ex Dutch M Class for example.

For me, despite the talk of stop gap second hand Frigates, in my opinion it's actually not a stop gap. MinDef looking for potential second hand Frigates that can be upgraded and being used for at least another two decades to complement newly build assets.

Just like when SBY bought Sigma's. Some build in Netherlands, some build by PAL, but they also looking for second hand assets that still can be upgraded and used for considerable time in future. For that Lafayette still fall on that category. Lafayette potential for upgradings can be seen on what Saudis and Taiwanese done (Singaporean ones a bit difference on design eventough still based on Lafayette).

That MOI if follow through include the co-op on upgrade. Thus it's probable the package includes upgrade done locally in Indonesia with kits from French. The upgrade including refurbishing the hull, which basically also done to Bung Tomo/Nahkoda Ragam. Lafayette has enough space in B position to accommodate at least 16 VLS for VL MICA/NG or Aster 15. Changing sensors, improvement on ASW suites has the space to be done.

Personally on my thinking, if looking for potential upgrade and keeping it for at least another two decades, Lafayette is better candidate then Ex Dutch M class, or other Euro potential second hand Frigates in the market.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Correct me if I'm wrong, however from what I read on Lafayette class, it's from beginning was prepared by French for further upgrade capabilities if the need arises.

As whether worth it ? Well the French do plan to upgrade 3 from 5 Lafayette. Thus seems the other two are open to transfer, which reflect the MOI. Compared to other potential second hand Frigates from Euro Market, it's still worth in my opinion. It's coming from 90's, compared to others potential that mostly from 80's.

Indonesian Navy during SBY era asside new Sigma build Corvettes and Light Frigates, also taking over ex Brunai's Nahkoda Ragam Corvettes. Granted the condition of those Corvettes were actually haven't been used, but the technology wise they're not much different from Lafayette's.

Yesterday I take a peek on some local forums or Indonesian defense related forums. Read some forumers that complain, if second hand Frigates going to be choose as part of stop gap, why not ex Dutch M Class for example.

For me, despite the talk of stop gap second hand Frigates, in my opinion it's actually not a stop gap. MinDef looking for potential second hand Frigates that can be upgraded and being used for at least another two decades to complement newly build assets.

Just like when SBY bought Sigma's. Some build in Netherlands, some build by PAL, but they also looking for second hand assets that still can be upgraded and used for considerable time in future. For that Lafayette still fall on that category. Lafayette potential for upgradings can be seen on what Saudis and Taiwanese done (Singaporean ones a bit difference on design eventough still based on Lafayette).

That MOI if follow through include the co-op on upgrade. Thus it's probable the package includes upgrade done locally in Indonesia with kits from French. The upgrade including refurbishing the hull, which basically also done to Bung Tomo/Nahkoda Ragam. Lafayette has enough space in B position to accommodate at least 16 VLS for VL MICA/NG or Aster 15. Changing sensors, improvement on ASW suites has the space to be done.

Personally on my thinking, if looking for potential upgrade and keeping it for at least another two decades, Lafayette is better candidate then Ex Dutch M class, or other Euro potential second hand Frigates in the market.

Agree, the Karel Doormanklasse/M-fregatten have sensors and processing systems all provided bij Hollandse Signaalapparaten, and most Indonesian vessels are equipped with their systems, but the ships are CODAG and are armed with the Harpoon and Sea Sparrow. Big chance that these two systems will be removed before delivery to Indonesia. Besides that the ships are slightly older than the La Fayettes and it is planned that Netherlands Navy have to keep them until 2028-2029, the two ships have to stay until the replacement is delivered.

The two La Fayettes will be retired much sooner, probably around 2023, when the first FTI will come.
TNI-AL doesnt have the 100 mm gun on its ships, maybe the 100 mm Creusot Loires will be replaced with Oto Melara 76 mm guns during overhaul before delivery to Indonesia, or TNI-AL will get enough support, spareparts and 100 mm rounds.

 

[Ananda]

TNI-AL doesnt have the 100 mm gun on its ships, maybe the 100 mm Creusot Loires will be replaced with Oto Melara 76 mm guns during overhaul before delivery to Indonesia, or TNI-AL will get enough support, spareparts and 100 mm rounds.

Better used ex Van Speijk Oto 76mm, it will simplified logistics. Oto Melara from what I read also offer upgrade to those guns with better software. Seems the indication shown TNI-AL going to standardize their main gun to Oto 76 and Bofors 57. Some in local forums talk to used 127mm gun if Iver based Frigates go ahead. For me, what for ?

Oto 76mm especially with upgrade can be used to be secondary CIWS. This time around, eventough the merit of 127mm gun still there, however in my opinion, unless you have big budget, standardize your main gun with 76mm and 57mm already good enough.

 

[swerve]

Correct me if I'm wrong, however from what I read on Lafayette class, it's from beginning was prepared by French for further upgrade capabilities if the need arises.

As whether worth it ? Well the French do plan to upgrade 3 from 5 Lafayette. Thus seems the other two are open to transfer, which reflect the MOI. Compared to other potential second hand Frigates from Euro Market, it's still worth in my opinion. It's coming from 90's, compared to others potential that mostly from 80's.
...

The French refit is a modernisation, but the Crotale is being replaced with Sadral, which is inferior in many ways. They're getting new hull sonars, torpedo defence, CMS, & being refurbished. They'll be better-equipped for ASW than now.

The two spare ships, Surcouf & Guépratte, are a few years newer than the remaining Dutch M-class, & the design is newer, but they're slower & have a more basic sensor fit. The all-diesel propulsion should be easier to maintain & cheaper to operate than the CODAG M-class.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Keel laying of the second KBRS/Hospital ship.
It seems that PAL is on schedule and that the construction is on 26%

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1573959149441232&id=638220153015141