Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

certain person on Twitter shared this just 30 minutes ago...

@Sandhi Yudha 30 minutes interval? You're followers

Anyway, one of local Defense blog still say based on their 'rumours' that MinDef already prepared USD 400 Mio for modern Corvettes/Light Frigates (some definition call Light Frigates as Corvettes), based on Sigma PKR. While this Guy put his 'rumours' that there's no budget allocation (I presume he's talking on Foreign Credit Allotment) for this project.

For me the question is, do training Light Frigate still needed? I've put the picture below on this thread sometimes ago. This's picture of Training patrol ships for Cadets based on KCR-44 design.
At the same time with the advancement of Simulators tech, most of large Navy build their training regime on that environment. While for field navigation training, can be done with building smaller ships for Cadets, like the picture I attached.

I guess there's now debate internally in TNI-AL and MinDef on the need for Training Frigates or use the budget for improving the Simulators infrastructure. Personally I tend to believe building more simulators will be more beneficial. It can create multiple scenarios than even Training Frigates can't provide.

TNI-AL already build simulators for Submarine, Gun Training facilities (using 76mm gun from one of the Van Speijk that already retired, heard that Ki Hajar Dewantara 57mm gun will also be used there). However many large Navies already build simulators for AAW, ASW, ASuW, and simulators for damage controls scenarios.

Thus, despites all the benefits of having Training Frigates, however I do believe to build more simulators infrastructure and used those Patrol Boats Trainers for Field/Sea Navigation training for Cadets will be more beneficial.

 

[Ananda]

ASELSAN'dan yeni ihracat anlaşması!

ASELSAN, Endonezya Donanması'nın ihtiyaçlarına binaen Uzaktan Komutalı Stabilize Top Sistemi ihracatıyla ilgili yeni bir ihracat anlaşması imzaladığını duyurdu.

www.savunmasanayist.com

On the 30mm Gun, it's true that the Patrol ships now seems more and more Marlin 30mm being used. However seems Aselsan saying they've got agreement from Indonesia to supply their 30mm Smash gun.

I don't know if this's for TNI-AL or BAKAMLA/Coast Guard. However if they choose Aselsan 30mm gun then it's more likely due to the price. Rumours say, this's PINDAD project, as Aselsan agree on ToT with them.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

@Sandhi Yudha 30 minutes interval? You're followers

Anyway, one of local Defense blog still say based on their 'rumours' that MinDef already prepared USD 400 Mio for modern Corvettes/Light Frigates (some definition call Light Frigates as Corvettes), based on Sigma PKR. While this Guy put his 'rumours' that there's no budget allocation (I presume he's talking on Foreign Credit Allotment) for this project.

For me the question is, do training Light Frigate still needed? I've put the picture below on this thread sometimes ago. This's picture of Training patrol ships for Cadets based on KCR-44 design.
At the same time with the advancement of Simulators tech, most of large Navy build their training regime on that environment. While for field navigation training, can be done with building smaller ships for Cadets, like the picture I attached.

I guess there's now debate internally in TNI-AL and MinDef on the need for Training Frigates or use the budget for improving the Simulators infrastructure. Personally I tend to believe building more simulators will be more beneficial. It can create multiple scenarios than even Training Frigates can't provide.

TNI-AL already build simulators for Submarine, Gun Training facilities (using 76mm gun from one of the Van Speijk that already retired, heard that Ki Hajar Dewantara 57mm gun will also be used there). However many large Navies already build simulators for AAW, ASW, ASuW, and simulators for damage controls scenarios.

Thus, despites all the benefits of having Training Frigates, however I do believe to build more simulators infrastructure and used those Patrol Boats Trainers for Field/Sea Navigation training for Cadets will be more beneficial.

We all know that Ahmad, you and me are loyal followers, but the difference is that i also have a special spiritual connection with the Oracle on Twitter.

ASELSAN'dan yeni ihracat anlaşması!

ASELSAN, Endonezya Donanması'nın ihtiyaçlarına binaen Uzaktan Komutalı Stabilize Top Sistemi ihracatıyla ilgili yeni bir ihracat anlaşması imzaladığını duyurdu.

www.savunmasanayist.com

On the 30mm Gun, it's true that the Patrol ships now seems more and more Marlin 30mm being used. However seems Aselsan saying they've got agreement from Indonesia to supply their 30mm Smash gun.

I don't know if this's for TNI-AL or BAKAMLA/Coast Guard. However if they choose Aselsan 30mm gun then it's more likely due to the price. Rumours say, this's PINDAD project, as Aselsan agree on ToT with them.

It seems to be for the navy.

Turkish defence companies survey Indonesian warships for possible upgrade opportunities

A delegation of Turkish defence industry officials has arrived in Indonesia to survey nine Indonesian Navy (Tentara Nasional Indonesia – Angkatan Laut: TNI-AL) warships, and assess the suitability of each of the platforms for weapon upgrades.

www.janes.com

To make it more confusing, some time ago Pindad also made an agreement with Kongsberg to produce the Protector RCWS in Bandung. But i think these RCWS are for smaller calibers, maybe for 7,62 and 12,7 mm machineguns, and maybe only for land vehicles.

 

[Ananda]

is that i also have a special spiritual connection with the Oracle on Twitter.

Well I also got psychic connection with one of the Oracle. She told me Indonesia will have 3 sq of Rafale, 3 sq of Eurofighter, 3 Sq of F-16V, and 3 Sq of F-15E. There will be also KC-46 Tankers, E-7 Wedgetail and P-8. She also give picture of Indonesian 30FFM Frigates, and Aegis Based Destroyers.

Then I woke up, with something wet, cause the Oracle come as Bella Hadid in Victoria Underwear.
Now, it's not hard though to be an Oracle for Indonesian Defense Enthusiasts

 

[swerve]

KC-46? I don't think much of your dreams. There are better tankers, you know. Ask your neighbours.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Well I also got psychic connection with one of the Oracle. She told me Indonesia will have 3 sq of Rafale, 3 sq of Eurofighter, 3 Sq of F-16V, and 3 Sq of F-15E. There will be also KC-46 Tankers, E-7 Wedgetail and P-8. She also give picture of Indonesian 30FFM Frigates, and Aegis Based Destroyers.

Then I woke up, with something wet, cause the Oracle come as Bella Hadid in Victoria Underwear.
Now, it's not hard though to be an Oracle for Indonesian Defense Enthusiasts

1. You make me jealous.
2. Who in heavens sake is Bella Hadid?
3. Why does she need to wear Victoria underwear?
4. Swerve is right, there are better tankers on the market.

Besides that. The Aselsan SMASH 30 mm RCWS uses the Hughes/Northrop-Grumman Mk44 Bushmaster II 30 mm gun, so that can maybe complicate deliveries.

 

[ngatimozart]

1. You make me jealous.
2. Who in heavens sake is Bella Hadid?
3. Why does she need to wear Victoria underwear?
4. Swerve is right, there are better tankers on the market.

Besides that. The Aselsan SMASH 30 mm RCWS uses the Hughes/Northrop-Grumman Mk44 Bushmaster II 30 mm gun, so that can maybe complicate deliveries.

If you don't know who Bella Hadid is, your education is sorely lacking I am sure that @Ananda would be willing to educate you on that question and your next one.

Yes I agree that there are better tankers on the market and I am sure that your neighbour to the south would be happy to advise you on this matter and help with training.

 

[Ananda]

KC-46? I don't think much of your dreams. There are better tankers, you know. Ask your neighbours.

Yes I agree that there are better tankers on the market and I am sure that your neighbour to the south would be happy to advise you on this matter and help with training.

RAAF already shown their A330 MRTT to TNI-AU. TNI-AU knows the capabilities of MRTT compared to KC-46. That's why my post actually 'sarcasm' on why in their publicly study result, they still put higher points to KC-46.

Sometime ago their study result already put and bit discuss in Indonesia AF thread. They've put higher points on KC-46 against MRTT mostly due to two points; KC-46 considered can be operated through more Air Base due to lightee MTOW, and local MRO support.

Which's boggling to me personally, yes MRTT has larger MTOW but not that much that makes them need much longer runway then KC-46. 767 and A330 basically still in same class. The points of KC-46 will be easier to support than MRTT also not making sense for me considering Garuda's MRO are more familiar with A330 than Boeing 767. Besides Garuda will have surplus A330-200 when they move to A330 NG, that eventough mostly leased like many Airlines, still can be cheaper to take over and convert for MRTT.

So somehow Bella Hadid in my dream shown the sarcasm, or I'm too distracted with her Victoria Secret outfit.

2. Who in heavens sake is Bella Hadid?
3. Why does she need to wear Victoria underwear

you don't know who Bella Hadid is, your education is sorely lacking

I'm sure @Sandhi Yudha only playing innocent

The Aselsan SMASH 30 mm RCWS uses the Hughes/Northrop-Grumman Mk44 Bushmaster II 30 mm gun, so that can maybe complicate deliveries

Yes, they're using same gun base. I do also believe it's the reason why SMASH being choose. However I also do sense ASELSAN being choose on other factor. Either price or their potential co-op with PINDAD. Leonardo/Oto Melara also have some history with PINDAD, something must happen that make ASELSAN can cut in from Leonardo.

 

[swerve]

... Garuda will have surplus A330-200 when they move to A330 NG, that eventough mostly leased like many Airlines, still can be cheaper to take over and convert for MRTT....

Whether they'll be worth converting depends on how much they've been used, but assuming they have enough airframe hours left, yes, that's a very good point. Airbus would rather sell you a new plane, of course, but I think if the customer wants to use secondhand aircraft Airbus will convert them. They get paid for it. They may insist on the aircraft meeting a certain standard, though.

I recently saw it reported that the French have decided to convert used A330s for the last three of their A330 MRTT order to save money. They've bought the planes secondhand from Airbus, so they'll be Airbus-certified.

 

[Ananda]

Video from TNI-AL First Fleet Command (Koarmada 1) official. Showing glimpse of PASSEX operation in Natuna Sea between KRI Bung Tomo and HMAS Bellarat.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

RAAF already shown their A330 MRTT to TNI-AU. TNI-AU knows the capabilities of MRTT compared to KC-46. That's why my post actually 'sarcasm' on why in their publicly study result, they still put higher points to KC-46.

Sometime ago their study result already put and bit discuss in Indonesia AF thread. They've put higher points on KC-46 against MRTT mostly due to two points; KC-46 considered can be operated through more Air Base due to lightee MTOW, and local MRO support.

Which's boggling to me personally, yes MRTT has larger MTOW but not that much that makes them need much longer runway then KC-46. 767 and A330 basically still in same class. The points of KC-46 will be easier to support than MRTT also not making sense for me considering Garuda's MRO are more familiar with A330 than Boeing 767. Besides Garuda will have surplus A330-200 when they move to A330 NG, that eventough mostly leased like many Airlines, still can be cheaper to take over and convert for MRTT.

So somehow Bella Hadid in my dream shown the sarcasm, or I'm too distracted with her Victoria Secret outfit.






I'm sure @Sandhi Yudha only playing innocent




Yes, they're using same gun base. I do also believe it's the reason why SMASH being choose. However I also do sense ASELSAN being choose on other factor. Either price or their potential co-op with PINDAD. Leonardo/Oto Melara also have some history with PINDAD, something must happen that make ASELSAN can cut in from Leonardo.

1. No, i really dont know who Bella Hadid is, but looking to Ngatimozarts and your reaction i have the feeling she is an erotic photomodel, pronstar or something else lewd... well, ill search later for her.

2. Also another neighbour (another close US ally) has ordered the A330 MRTT.

3. That the Aselsan SMASH uses the American Bushmaster Mk44 30 mm as its core is actually a problem. Even if the US is willing to export the 30 mm gun to Indonesia, its not sure yet they want to sell it to Aselsan.

Erdogan says US sanctions aim to stymie growing Turkish defense industry

The U.S. sanctions, imposed on Monday over Turkey’s procurement of Russia’s advanced S-400 system, are part of a U.S. law known as CAATSA, which are aimed at pushing back on Russian influence.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

A certain person on Twitter just posted this:
"US has delivered Boeing ScanEagle UAV to Indonesia since a few months ago. But it's not handover yet from US to Indonesia. It's still need to assemble by US technicians. Also required a dedicated shelter or hangar. It's expected ScanEagle will fly on Indonesian sky next year."

1. How can the ScanEagles already been handover of these things are not even built and tested?
2. Maybe he means assembly of the main parts (wing to body attachment), but that will probably done after delivery when the disassembled parts arive in Indonesia.
3. The ScanEagle needs ofcourse a store and repair centre, but from which i understand the ScanEagle have to operate from naval vessels.

 

[Ananda]

It's still need to assemble by US technicians. Also required a dedicated shelter or hangar.

My guess it's due to COVID situation. All the equipment of UAV already delivered. However since no Indonesian technicians already have exposure to this particular UAV system yet, then it need the US technicians to guide them on assemble the system.

It's practically Standard delivery procedures. Even when the Flankers come, we need Russian technicians to guide TNI-AU technicians to assemble the plane. It's not assemble manufacturing, like in car manufacturing for example. It's simply bolt them together. However you do still need suppliers technicians support, in order to guide your own technicians. It's also part of suppliers support for local familiarity on new system.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The KRI Bung Tomo 357 went recently on patrol in Laut Natuna Utara, the sea north of the Natuna Islands which is still part of the EEZ of Indonesia. As predictable the Chinese Coast Guard try again to claim they have the right to patrol there. Sadly the English of the chinese reply is not really understandable.

Later a P-3 Orion flies close to the Indonesian corvette, but its unclear from which country it is.

The Indonesian Navy is quite busy over there, because there are also a lot of naughty Vietnamese fishingboats in the North Natuna Sea.

Also KRI Sutedi Senoputra 378 caught some fishingboats.

 

[Ananda]

https://www.facebook.com/638220153015141/posts/1551082708395543

Got this from PT. PAL Facebook, showing their building block assembly process for KCR-60 Batch 2. However I put in here more on talk on the PT. PAL enclosed assembly yard facilities. From the Video it's quite large, however I do see this's only sufficient up to Corvette/OPV size perhaps up to 100 m. More than that PAL perhaps has to assemble outside, that's why I suspect PKR and LPD manufacturing process doing on outside yard.

If Government wants to build larger number of Frigates on the 130m-140m size, perhaps they should invest for PAL on larger Facilities. Enclosed assembly line up to Frigates size should be build. Yes PAL has outside yard to do it, however as the video shown, enclosed facilities will be more efficient doing building blocks assembly. They can do it up to two build simultaneously, then after completion can rolled it out to launch facilities.

There's been talk during SBY's era to build larger Facilities for PAL in Lampung (Southern Sumatra) location. Seems in beginning of Jokowi's first term PAL still continue the studies. However no additional development that I heard.
Unlike DI, PAL actually already more commercially viable. Thus in my opinion, Investment in SOE Shipyards are more commercially justify then DI at this moment.

 

[Ananda]

Later a P-3 Orion flies close to the Indonesian corvette, but its unclear from which country it is

I think from Video the KRI TOM crew already indentified it as New Zealand P-3. I suspect they're coming from Malaysian AB. I believe RNZAF like RAAF still do some operation from Malaysian AB from time to time.

With RMAF still lack on MPA (that's why they're now doing modifications of their CN-235 as MPA in DI), I suspect RNZAF MPA help to them to fill the gap, from time to time. Remember North Natuna Sea also close to Malaysian EEZ.

 

[ngatimozart]

I think from Video the KRI TOM crew already indentified it as New Zealand P-3. I suspect they're coming from Malaysian AB. I believe RNZF like RAAF still do some operation from Malaysian AB from time to time.

With RMAF still lack on MPA (that's why they're now doing modifications of their CN-235 as MPA in DI), I suspect RNZF MPA help to them to fill the gap, from time to time. Remember North Natuna Sea also close to Malaysian EEZ.

A RNZAF P-3K2 was either on its way to Japan or returning from Japan recently, being up their monitoring the UNSC sanctions on North Korea. So maybe it was helping the Malays out whilst it was in the area.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://www.facebook.com/638220153015141/posts/1551082708395543

Got this from PT. PAL Facebook, showing their building block assembly process for KCR-60 Batch 2. However I put in here more on talk on the PT. PAL enclosed assembly yard facilities. From the Video it's quite large, however I do see this's only sufficient up to Corvette/OPV size perhaps up to 100 m. More than that PAL perhaps has to assemble outside, that's why I suspect PKR and LPD manufacturing process doing on outside yard.

If Government wants to build larger number of Frigates on the 130m-140m size, perhaps they should invest for PAL on larger Facilities. Enclosed assembly line up to Frigates size should be build. Yes PAL has outside yard to do it, however as the video shown, enclosed facilities will be more efficient doing building blocks assembly. They can do it up to two build simultaneously, then after completion can rolled it out to launch facilities.

There's been talk during SBY's era to build larger Facilities for PAL in Lampung (Southern Sumatra) location. Seems in beginning of Jokowi's first term PAL still continue the studies. However no additional development that I heard.
Unlike DI, PAL actually already more commercially viable. Thus in my opinion, Investment in SOE Shipyards are more commercially justify then DI at this moment.

Correct me if im wrong, but weren't the 5th and 6th KCR-60 boats part of the third batch, to be equipped with Terma systems?

 

[Ananda]

but weren't the 5th and 6th KCR-60 boats part of the third batch,

Could be, I once read PAL call 1st, 2nd, and 3rd as first batch and 4th, 5th, and 6th as second batch. However there's also other talk on 1st and 2nd as first batch, second batch for 3rd and 4th boats, while 5th and 6th as 3rd.

However I personally tend to follow two batch as based on hull design. My understanding that the 1st through 3rd have different hull design toward the 4th through 6th boats. PAL remodified the hull somewhat on the 1st through 3rd, however the 4th through 6th already designed from beginning on the lesson from previous batch.

On other other hand divide the class on 3 batch also can be done due to different electronics as you have mentioned.

 

[Ananda]

Il Giappone vuole vendere le fregate all'Indonesia, spunta anche l'offerta italiana

Tra le priorità del Governo di Tokyo c’è l’export di equipaggiamento militare con particolare attenzione per l’area di influenza giapponese. Il Giappone starebbe infatti spingendo la vendita di navi militari verso l’Indonesia in modo da alimentare la visione di un “indo-pacifico libero”. Le...

www.aresdifesa.it

Personally in my opinion if MinDef, TNI-AL and PAL still going with OMT Iver Based for Frigate, for secondary layer Fincantieri PPA seems quite more realistic toward TNI-AL operational condition.

PT. PAL already have long potential discussion with Fincantieri from the 90's from potential using Lupo design for Light Frigate, Nationale Corvettes program (both being cut by Damen) and now Fincantieri submitting their proposal again.