Royal New Zealand Air Force

[Gibbo]

I don't think he's been over optimistic. It depends upon how much they are willing to take advantage of opportunities, for example say acquiring 6 surplus Air NZ ATR72 aircraft and fitting the sensors, coms gear etc., off the P3K2 to them. The aircraft will be relatively inexpensive and we've already got the gear, so it's a cost effective option and the work could potentially be done here, maybe at Woodbourne which IIRC, did the P3K2.

The UAV could be the MQ-9B SeaGuardian which is significantly cheaper than the MQ-4C Triton. Satellites are different story and traditional surveillance satellites are expensive and sitting targets. They could lease / buy sensor bandwidth off commercial birds but that's expensive and doesn't supply all the data that they require. They could look at new technologies such as cubesats and work with those. The sensors are certainly being miniaturized enough to possibly fit a satellite that could be launched from Mahia, but would they be willing to take such a risk? I think at some stage they will have to seriously consider cubesats because NZDF will require replacement satellites to be launched quickly as existing satellites are neutralized. It would be something that our allies would also be very interested in because (from memory) we and the US have the only operational satellite launch facilities on sovereign territory within FVEY. Outside of FVEY, the only other partner nation within the region would be Japan.

Yes I guess ATR-72 could be re-purposed fairly comfortably but would US approval be forthcoming to swap P3 systems over?...and what about support of those systems? Possibly surmountable... but we do always tend to say we shouldn't go leading-edge on a orphan hybrid capability. Maybe just do an COTS fit out of a supported, new sensor system rather than re-using P3 systems... . AirNZ will be largely a domestic airline going forward so will they want to release any of the domestic fleet.... dunno, many variables! Still adamant it won't involve ASW or ASuw capability though.

With respect to the EMAC this PDF is quite interesting... https://www.defence.govt.nz/assets/publication/file/e4ddc7952d/NEA-Tranche-2.pdf

Whilst seemingly unconnected there is a table on the last page that states in relation to EMAC that the current business case stage is:
Enhanced Maritime Awareness Capability: Single Stage (Approval of a preferred option)

That suggests some aspects of the EMAC project are a lot further down the path than the AVM alludes to in the article!

 

[ngatimozart]

AFAIK the transfer of equipment covered by ITAR within a country from one platform to another doesn't require US approval. That is only required if it's being sold to a third party or being disposed of.

The EMAC project is one that not much is known about and appears to be something that is cruising along nicely. It being a single stage approval, to me looks like they already have a platform shortlisted. Most likely it's something that's come out of the FASC RFI & RFT stages. Who knows.

Air NZ whilst being a domestic fleet in the near to medium term, derived a significant amount of traffic on its domestic network from foreign tourism and foreign business travellers. Since neither won't be here for a reasonable while, they will have excess capacity that they can't afford to hold on to. They have also been replacing older aircraft in the ATR fleet.

 

[MrConservative]

Yes they do, but he said medium sized aircraft, and that a King Air isn't. It has the range, but maybe not the capacity that they are looking at. The current King Airs are leased apart from the GFE fitted to them.

The Hi-Lo mix per P-8A/KA-350ER goes back a number of years prior to the time of the DWP15. It was even a thing back in the days of Phil Goff as Defence Minister when there was a noted requirement for a Q300 style short range constabulary aircraft, but that morphed into the cost effectiveness of the KA-350.

However, the degradation of the strategic environment has shifted even faster since the time of the DWP15 and by the DCP19 it possibly has come to a point where by the KA-350 focus on purely the EEZ constabulary side in policy terms wont be enough for the extension of a Lo-Medium capability into the Pacific where there is likely to be a bit more action that envisaged earlier last decade.

The Italian law enforcement agency Guardia di Finanza recently paid Eur150m for three new Leonardo P-72A's which is the MPA variant of the ATR-72. That is a fair whack of cash and the C-295MPA is considerably more expensive.

Air New Zealand have in storage six ATR-72's which are respectively, ZK-MVB 7.5 Years, ZK-MVE 5.8 Years, ZK-MVF 5.5 Years, ZK-MVK 4.1 Years, ZK-MZC 0.6 Years and ZK-MZD 0.6 Years old. Thus they seem to have plenty life left in them for a potential 2nd career as patrol aircraft. Their market value will have plummeted. Our leased KA-350ER's are of a similar age.

So on one hand we have 6 reasonably young medium twin passenger aircraft that have been put out to pasture due to Covid and the near collapse of the NZ commercial aviation market and on the other hand we have reasonably new but very high end components such as Elta EL/M2022A[V]3 radars, LN-100G INS/GPS, Rockwell Collins CS-3045 Electronic Surveillance sensors, Wescam MX-20's, and MIDS-LVT(1) Link 16 terminals, that will by 2024 be sitting inside 6 very elderly P-3K's. Some of that stuff may present an ITARS problem for us and the US. It maybe that having the RNZAF and through the local aviation industrial base retain, recycle and reintegrate certain components and acquiring what else it needs as Government Furnished Equipment into a newer airframe such as relatively youthful ATR-72's might be an attractive solution.

We have also have a pretty capable aviation support industry (Air NZ Engineering, Airbus NZ (Woodbourne), Pacific Aerospace, AirWork NZ et al) that needs to be put to work and both Employers and Unions keen to see this industry and employment prospects continue and yes a fair chunk of the money would stay in New Zealand. It is certainly worth a deeper investigation in my view.

There are also five Air NZ owned Q300's now under storage as well, ZK-NEE 14.6 Years, ZK-NEG 14.4 Years, ZK-NEH 14.4 Years, ZK-NEJ 14.2 Years, and ZK-NEK 14 Years old which may also be a potential alternative.

Incidentally the four fully Air NZ owned B772ER's that are now in storage are ZK-OKB 14.7 Years, ZK-OKC 14.5 Years, ZK-OKF 14.1 Years, and ZK-OKH 13.5 Years.

 

[RetirementIsGood]

I think you are looking at the satellite issue from the wrong angle. If you think of it as a surveillance function rather than as a warfighting capability, it becomes a lot easier. If we are engaged with an opponent with significant anti-satellite capability, we're in all sorts of bother anyway.

I would envisage the initial capability as being able to provide radarsat and AIS coverage of the Ross Sea and Southern Ocean to the south of NZ. This would require commercial agreements with one or more of the existing government and commercial providers, and probably a satellite earth station to downlink the data gathered by satellites on their northward pass. You would want the ability to revisit each spot at least a couple of times every day.
Apart from general maritime situational awareness, the first thing they would look for is radar returns with no AIS ping: these are prime targets for sending an enforcement element. I believe the French did a similar thing in their south Indian Ocean territories and cleaned up a lot of the illegal fisheries there.

 

[Todjaeger]

The Hi-Lo mix per P-8A/KA-350ER goes back a number of years prior to the time of the DWP15. It was even a thing back in the days of Phil Goff as Defence Minister when there was a noted requirement for a Q300 style short range constabulary aircraft, but that morphed into the cost effectiveness of the KA-350.

However, the degradation of the strategic environment has shifted even faster since the time of the DWP15 and by the DCP19 it possibly has come to a point where by the KA-350 focus on purely the EEZ constabulary side in policy terms wont be enough for the extension of a Lo-Medium capability into the Pacific where there is likely to be a bit more action that envisaged earlier last decade.

The Italian law enforcement agency Guardia di Finanza recently paid Eur150m for three new Leonardo P-72A's which is the MPA variant of the ATR-72. That is a fair whack of cash and the C-295MPA is considerably more expensive.

Air New Zealand have in storage six ATR-72's which are respectively, ZK-MVB 7.5 Years, ZK-MVE 5.8 Years, ZK-MVF 5.5 Years, ZK-MVK 4.1 Years, ZK-MZC 0.6 Years and ZK-MZD 0.6 Years old. Thus they seem to have plenty life left in them for a potential 2nd career as patrol aircraft. Their market value will have plummeted. Our leased KA-350ER's are of a similar age.

So on one hand we have 6 reasonably young medium twin passenger aircraft that have been put out to pasture due to Covid and the near collapse of the NZ commercial aviation market and on the other hand we have reasonably new but very high end components such as Elta EL/M2022A[V]3 radars, LN-100G INS/GPS, Rockwell Collins CS-3045 Electronic Surveillance sensors, Wescam MX-20's, and MIDS-LVT(1) Link 16 terminals, that will by 2024 be sitting inside 6 very elderly P-3K's. Some of that stuff may present an ITARS problem for us and the US. It maybe that having the RNZAF and through the local aviation industrial base retain, recycle and reintegrate certain components and acquiring what else it needs as Government Furnished Equipment into a newer airframe such as relatively youthful ATR-72's might be an attractive solution.

We have also have a pretty capable aviation support industry (Air NZ Engineering, Airbus NZ (Woodbourne), Pacific Aerospace, AirWork NZ et al) that needs to be put to work and both Employers and Unions keen to see this industry and employment prospects continue and yes a fair chunk of the money would stay in New Zealand. It is certainly worth a deeper investigation in my view.

There are also five Air NZ owned Q300's now under storage as well, ZK-NEE 14.6 Years, ZK-NEG 14.4 Years, ZK-NEH 14.4 Years, ZK-NEJ 14.2 Years, and ZK-NEK 14 Years old which may also be a potential alternative.

Incidentally the four fully Air NZ owned B772ER's that are now in storage are ZK-OKB 14.7 Years, ZK-OKC 14.5 Years, ZK-OKF 14.1 Years, and ZK-OKH 13.5 Years.

The P-72A variant of the ATR-72MP is kitted out for ASuW and ISR/ELINT roles as well as C3. In the future, ASW capabilities could be added but that has not happened yet.

If a fair bit of the current P-3K2 kit can be 'pulled through' and installed onto ATR 72's, then I would definitely be in favour of the NZDF adding several to the inventory to augment what the Poseidon's can do.

 

[milliGal]

I don't think he's been over optimistic. It depends upon how much they are willing to take advantage of opportunities, for example say acquiring 6 surplus Air NZ ATR72 aircraft and fitting the sensors, coms gear etc., off the P3K2 to them. The aircraft will be relatively inexpensive and we've already got the gear, so it's a cost effective option and the work could potentially be done here, maybe at Woodbourne which IIRC, did the P3K2.

The UAV could be the MQ-9B SeaGuardian which is significantly cheaper than the MQ-4C Triton. Satellites are different story and traditional surveillance satellites are expensive and sitting targets. They could lease / buy sensor bandwidth off commercial birds but that's expensive and doesn't supply all the data that they require. They could look at new technologies such as cubesats and work with those. The sensors are certainly being miniaturized enough to possibly fit a satellite that could be launched from Mahia, but would they be willing to take such a risk? I think at some stage they will have to seriously consider cubesats because NZDF will require replacement satellites to be launched quickly as existing satellites are neutralized. It would be something that our allies would also be very interested in because (from memory) we and the US have the only operational satellite launch facilities on sovereign territory within FVEY. Outside of FVEY, the only other partner nation within the region would be Japan.

The June edition of Airforce News adds a bit of information to this topic.

From what I had seen it appeared the complementary maritime surveillance capability (now called EMAC apparently) was quite far progressed. Given that all we had seen to date was 2 KA350's modified with an EO/IR and a multi-mode radar I thought this might be it, but that article appears to suggest we might see additional capability added yet.

Their is also a piece in there about interning at the DTA that shows they are already experimenting with CubeSat technologies. I am not sure if an EO system capable of providing high enough resolution imagery for maritime surveillance can bit shrunk down to fit on a CubeSat, so I am not sure what kind useful capability they could provide (communications node perhaps, or low resolution maritime radar). Perhaps other members know more.

 

[ngatimozart]

I think you are looking at the satellite issue from the wrong angle. If you think of it as a surveillance function rather than as a warfighting capability, it becomes a lot easier. If we are engaged with an opponent with significant anti-satellite capability, we're in all sorts of bother anyway.

I would envisage the initial capability as being able to provide radarsat and AIS coverage of the Ross Sea and Southern Ocean to the south of NZ. This would require commercial agreements with one or more of the existing government and commercial providers, and probably a satellite earth station to downlink the data gathered by satellites on their northward pass. You would want the ability to revisit each spot at least a couple of times every day.
Apart from general maritime situational awareness, the first thing they would look for is radar returns with no AIS ping: these are prime targets for sending an enforcement element. I believe the French did a similar thing in their south Indian Ocean territories and cleaned up a lot of the illegal fisheries there.

Maybe I was. I was looking at it more in the case of a conflict occurring with space warfare already occurring. We have to assume that any space assets that we utilise will be targeted by the PRC and / or Russia during hostilities. That's where I am coming from. Prepare for the worse and hope for the best. Our use of satellites have 5 specific functions:

• Surveillance
• C2
• Communications
• Data transfer
• Navigation

The loss of our space based systems or access to them will place us at a significant disadvantage and it's not something that can be fixed in a couple of minutes. It's something that we have to plan for and have robust systems in place for. That's why I wrote what I posted. This is not detracting from your post because you post very valid points which offer solutions to current problems and are eminently practical. I agree with you on them.

 

[ngatimozart]

The June edition of Airforce News adds a bit of information to this topic.

From what I had seen it appeared the complementary maritime surveillance capability (now called EMAC apparently) was quite far progressed. Given that all we had seen to date was 2 KA350's modified with an EO/IR and a multi-mode radar I thought this might be it, but that article appears to suggest we might see additional capability added yet.

Their is also a piece in there about interning at the DTA that shows they are already experimenting with CubeSat technologies. I am not sure if an EO system capable of providing high enough resolution imagery for maritime surveillance can bit shrunk down to fit on a CubeSat, so I am not sure what kind useful capability they could provide (communications node perhaps, or low resolution maritime radar). Perhaps other members know more.

Cool thanks. You safe and well in this COVID-19 pandemic?

 

[milliGal]

Cool thanks. You safe and well in this COVID-19 pandemic?

Oh a few minor dramas here and there, travel and work plans have being disrupted and the like, but nothing serious to complain about. I left the UK and returned to NZ late last year and with hindsight I could not have timed things better. NZ is a good place to be right now.

 

[ngatimozart]

Oh a few minor dramas here and there, travel and work plans have being disrupted and the like, but nothing serious to complain about. I left the UK and returned to NZ late last year and with hindsight I could not have timed things better. NZ is a good place to be right now.

Cool. It sure is.

 

[Gibbo]

The June edition of Airforce News adds a bit of information to this topic.

From what I had seen it appeared the complementary maritime surveillance capability (now called EMAC apparently) was quite far progressed. Given that all we had seen to date was 2 KA350's modified with an EO/IR and a multi-mode radar I thought this might be it, but that article appears to suggest we might see additional capability added yet.

Their is also a piece in there about interning at the DTA that shows they are already experimenting with CubeSat technologies. I am not sure if an EO system capable of providing high enough resolution imagery for maritime surveillance can bit shrunk down to fit on a CubeSat, so I am not sure what kind useful capability they could provide (communications node perhaps, or low resolution maritime radar). Perhaps other members know more.

Yes agreed it does indeed seem that the 42sqn KA350 sensor fit-out is intended primarily as a training platform and not EMAC per se.

That same link I posted earlier is dated Feb 2020 by which time the 'Air Crew Training Capability' (ACTC) project plan to add sensors to 2 x KA350 was well advanced... effectively well into the implementation stage. At the same time the 'Future Air Mobility Capability - Tactical' (FAMC-T) project for C130J-30 acquisition was still not confirmed by cabinet nor contact signed, yet it was listed as being in the implementation stage. If EMAC was at that time as 'Approval of a preferred option' then it is clearly not nearly as advanced as the FAMC-T project, and even less so than the ACTC project. So my long-winded point... that you've already picked up on... is that EMAC must indeed refer to another capability.

Trying to read between the lines of media releases from MinDef & others in relation to the DCP, which is never an exact science, I interpreted the EMAC hinting at a move away from a fixed wing option and focusing on satellites 2025+ & UAV 2030+... however the AVM's interview seems to strongly suggests a fixed wing capability is very much still on the cards. Neither satellites nor UAV could be considered anywhere near the stage of looking for approval of a preferred option / supplier ... so it must be the fixed wing the AVM refers to.

Due to it's apparent rapid progress of the EMAC project to this stage would strongly suggest it must be an extension of an existing capability... hence not going to full RFP / tender etc. That therefore has KA350 seemingly written all over it. Textron offer the KA350er which has longer range than 42sqn's KA350i... just how much more that range pans out to once fitted with sensors, consoles & datalink / comms etc I don't know. They can be modified to drop rescue rafts / packs which would be essential for SAR taskings.

However the AVM is definitely painting a picture of something larger (mid-size) and I can't see that going through without a RFT / tender process unless it is something rather cheap & opportunistic being pursued...that sounds very much like ex-AirNZ twin-props to me... much like the F27 in the 80's. As MrC has pointed out...AirNZ has some fairly young ATR72 sitting around...but were they sitting unused in pre-COVID Feb 2020 when EMAC had a preferred option? .... maybe it was the older Q300 in contention.

I suspect the P3K2 fleet will start shrinking due to 'supportability challenges' before the P8 start ops so the EMAC may have more urgency now in order to plug a foreseen gap in capability. Whether that in turn becomes a temporary capability until satellites & UAV come on stream .. only time will tell I guess!

 

[ngatimozart]

@Gibbo I believe that the EMAC is a permanent capability given the wording of the AVM. My reading of it is that he is talking about a wider role than just 2nd tier MPA. I could be wrong, but it would make some sense. I agree with your P3K2 availability comment, but the first Poseidon arrives mid - late 2023 with the other 3 in quick succession during 2024.

I read your comments elsewhere saying that the B777-200 was to large for the RNZAF. I beg to differ and a good part of my reasoning is here. I think that we have to take advantage of the unique situation that we are in at the moment and the B777-200 offers us a significant strategic lift capability, that not only benefits us, but is a capability that our allies and friends don't have. It would future proof us as well.

 

[MrConservative]

It may be a good idea at this stage to list the current Air-Space Domain projects in play as a reference.

Enhanced Maritime Awareness Capability - Air Domain
The Enhanced Maritime Awareness Capability project will support the Government’s civil maritime security strategy, providing air surveillance capabilities that enhance all-of-Government maritime domain awareness in New Zealand and the Southern Ocean. The capabilities delivered through this investment will be dedicated to civil surveillance requirements, with Defence support for their delivery and operation. This will free up the new P-8A maritime patrol aircraft fleet to fly more missions in the South Pacific and further afield. Investment in a range of capabilities will be considered, including satellite surveillance, unmanned aerial vehicles and traditional fixed-wing surveillance.

Indicative dates:
Industry engagement commences – Currently underway
Request for tender – 2020
Introduction into Service – 2023
Indicative capital cost: From $300m–$600m

Future Strategic Air Mobility - Air Domain
Operations in the Pacific and globally will require an air transport option for the movement of personnel, equipment and stores over long ranges. The eventual withdrawal from service of the current Boeing 757 fleet will allow for the procurement of a strategic airlift capability that meets capability requirements across a range of tasks.

Indicative dates:
Industry engagement commences – 2021
Request for tender – 2024
Introduction into Service – 2028
Indicative capital cost: From $300m–$600m

Future Air Crew Training Capability - Air Domain
The recently acquired King Air 350 have allowed the New Zealand Defence Force to conduct air crew training domestically, improving Defence’s resilience and sustainability. The leased aircraft will require replacement in the mid-2020s with a training platform that reflects the Royal New Zealand Air Force’s modern fleet of aircraft, following the introduction of the P-8A Poseidon, C-130H replacement, and strategic airlift capability.

Indicative dates:
Industry engagement commences – 2024
Request for tender – 2026
Introduction into Service – 2028
Indicative capital cost: From $150m–$200m

Investment decisions planned for 2021

Maritime Satellite Surveillance - Space Domain
Surveillance from space through the procurement of specific coordinated services from operators of satellite systems will provide broad coverage of our expansive maritime domain, allowing for improved situational awareness, and more targeted and efficient use of surface vessels and aircraft. Information provided from satellite communications will be used to identify activities and vessels of interest in the Southern and South Pacific Oceans. This will allow aircraft and ships to be directed, assisting in interceptions of criminal activity at sea, resource and border patrols, and assistance to vessels in distress. In operations in support of our Pacific partners, surveillance may also be used to inform decision makers of the state of critical infrastructure and the movement of people. This will ensure that stability and security, and humanitarian and disaster relief operations can be undertaken with relevant, up-to-date information.

Indicative dates:
Introduction into Service – 2025

Investment decisions after 2030 - Air Domain
Indicative investments planned between 2030 and 2035 have been included to allow for considered, long-term planning for the Defence Force’s future needs. These capabilities will be reassessed ahead of the 2022 Defence White Paper.

P-8A Poseidon Upgrades
In order to retain the full operational capability and interoperability of the P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft, projects will be undertaken to install upgraded systems and equipment on the aircraft as they become available from the late 2020s.

Long Endurance Unmanned Aerial Vehicles
A long-range unmanned aerial vehicle will be acquired to support land and maritime forces with improved, continuous intelligence and surveillance. The capability will provide a greater range and coverage of operational areas, while also reducing risk posed to personnel in collecting intelligence.

Investment decisions after 2030 - Space Domain

Wideband Global Satellite Replacement
The current Wideband Global Satellite system used by the New Zealand Defence Force as part of its global defence communications network, will require replacement after 2030. The current satellite constellation will reach the end of its life and be replaced with a new capability. The means through which this service is provided, along with the exact capability requirements, will be assessed at that time and will draw on technological advances from the intervening years.

 

[Incog_Nito]

Will New Zealand Air Force be open to selling their P-3Cs and C-130Hs to other countries?



Shopping List type posts without any context or analysis are against the rules. Please do not do this again.

 

[MrConservative]

Will New Zealand Air Force be open to selling their P-3Cs and C-130Hs to other countries?

No. They will go to museums and or be parts.

And I guess they should also focus on the acquisition of Boeing 737 AEW&C. As they don't have a regular Air Force but they can have a surveillance & reconnaissance Air Force which can be comprised of the following Aircraft:

• 3-4 Boeing P-8 Poseidon MPA
• 3-4 Boeing 737 AEW&C
• 12-14 General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper

And these can be divided in the 3 commands i.e:

• North
  • 1 Boeing P-8 Poseidon MPA
  • 1 Boeing 737 AEW&C
  • 4 General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper
• Central
  • 2 Boeing P-8 Poseidon MPA
  • 2 Boeing 737 AEW&C
  • 6 General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper
• South
  • 1 Boeing P-8 Poseidon MPA
  • 1 Boeing 737 AEW&C
  • 4 General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper

Such force will give them a massive capability that can make New Zealand's surveillance & reconnaissance formidable.

A fanboi list of aircraft and hypothetical command structures is nowhere near the standard of posting we demand at Defence Talk. We also don't encourage pointless artwork of populating posts. Thus the huge and irrelevant crest you posted was deleted.

Please read the rules and the become familiar with the threads before you post again.

Defence Talk is primarily a site for defence and security professionals and informed defence enthusiasts to share analysis of current and futures capabilities, force structures and outlooks guided by sound policy considerations. Not amatuerish wish lists without any bearing to reality.

Mr Conservative (Moderator)

 

[Incog_Nito]

No. They will go to museums and or be parts.




A fanboi list of aircraft and hypothetical command structures is nowhere near the standard of posting we demand at Defence Talk. We also don't encourage pointless artwork of populating posts. Thus the huge and irrelevant crest you posted was deleted.

Please read the rules and the become familiar with the threads before you post again.

Defence Talk is primarily a site for defence and security professionals and informed defence enthusiasts to share analysis of current and futures capabilities, force structures and outlooks guided by sound policy considerations. Not amatuerish wish lists without any bearing to reality.

Mr Conservative (Moderator)

I'm sorry and I will make sure to stay under the rules. Thanks

 

[Gibbo]

@Gibbo I believe that the EMAC is a permanent capability given the wording of the AVM. My reading of it is that he is talking about a wider role than just 2nd tier MPA. I could be wrong, but it would make some sense. I agree with your P3K2 availability comment, but the first Poseidon arrives mid - late 2023 with the other 3 in quick succession during 2024.

I read your comments elsewhere saying that the B777-200 was to large for the RNZAF. I beg to differ and a good part of my reasoning is here. I think that we have to take advantage of the unique situation that we are in at the moment and the B777-200 offers us a significant strategic lift capability, that not only benefits us, but is a capability that our allies and friends don't have. It would future proof us as well.

Yes certainly hoping EMAC fixed wing capability becomes a permanent reality... having P8 + ?? fixed wing; satellite(s) & UAV sounds about right for NZ given the substantial EEZ & SAR area of responsibility we have... certainly needs to be upsized from present levels.

With regard B777 yes very valid point about 2 providing the ability to move a batallion group and obvious utility of such for allies. I'm not familiar with what airports in the Pacific can take a B777 but I guess it is a strategic asset after all so it does add some meat to our sum game. I'm still not convinced we'd get them nor 3 operational but I guess the constant scrimping by successive Govts has conditioned me to always expect the less than optimum approach to every purchase. Post COVID does certainly change the lansdscape for 2nd market and if AirNZ are an average of 14 years old then maybe we look for similar but newer.

Although AVM Clark states work will begin next year to define requirements for B757 replacement I would expect that they already have a fair idea of what those requirements will look like. I just hope they get the squadron record book out & shake that at Govt & Treasury & provide stats to prove 2 airframes are not enough... just need to itemise all breakdowns or periods of no B757 availability... one thing a pollie told me once is they only deal with facts that can be proved by stats!

 

[MrConservative]

I'm not familiar with what airports in the Pacific can take a B777 but I guess it is a strategic asset after all so it does add some meat to our sum game.

Here is a list of major Pacific airports with runways above 2000m in no particular order:

Niue 2,335m
Raraotonga 2328m
Tongareva 2,295m
Nadi 3,206m
Apia 3,000m
Noumea 3,250m
Tahiti 3,420m
Pago Pago 3,048m
Wallis 2,100m
Nauru 2,150m
Kiribati 2,103m
Bonriki 2,011m
United States Minor Outlying Islands (3 US Defence Dept Runways)
Northern Mariana Islands (3 US Defence Dept Runways)
Guam (2 3000m+ runways one an IA the other US DoD)
Marshal Islands 2,407m
Kwajalein 2,032m
Palau 2,195m
Port Villa 2,600m
Honiara 2,200m
Port Moresby 2,750m
Lae 2,439m
Fuaʻamotu 2,681m
Auckland 3,635m
Wellington 2,081m
Christchurch 3,288m
Whenuapei 2,031m
Ohakea 2,445m
Hamilton 2,059m
Rotorua 2,114m

They are either ICAO approved International Airports or US military fields and spread around every territorial jurisdiction in the North and South Pacific. They are all within easy reach of a B777-200ER.

As per the Future Strategic Air Mobility - Air Domain statement above: Operations in the Pacific and globally will require an air transport option for the movement of personnel, equipment and stores over long ranges.

It is pretty much the only option that can do all that the current B757 can do but all at the same time and over a much greater range.

 

[aviation_enthus]

Runway length is only one part of the equation. The runway has to be physically strong enough to handle the higher weights of a bigger aircraft.

Runways are given a Pavement Classification Number (PCN) which determines their relative strength and ability to withstand regular operations of aircraft.

Aircraft have an Aircraft Classification Number (ACN) based on overall weight, number of wheels and the weight distribution of those wheels.

Runways can exceed their design PCN to a certain degree for one off flights. But semi regular or even multiple flights over the space of a week/month (disaster relief or war) would result in damage and potentially an unusable runway.

The two images below show the difference between the 757 vs 777. The 777 has up to a 50% higher PCN vs the 757.

 

[Gibbo]

Here is a list of major Pacific airports with runways above 2000m in no particular order:

Niue 2,335m
Raraotonga 2328m
Tongareva 2,295m
Nadi 3,206m
Apia 3,000m
Noumea 3,250m
Tahiti 3,420m
Pago Pago 3,048m
Wallis 2,100m
Nauru 2,150m
Kiribati 2,103m
Bonriki 2,011m
United States Minor Outlying Islands (3 US Defence Dept Runways)
Northern Mariana Islands (3 US Defence Dept Runways)
Guam (2 3000m+ runways one an IA the other US DoD)
Marshal Islands 2,407m
Kwajalein 2,032m
Palau 2,195m
Port Villa 2,600m
Honiara 2,200m
Port Moresby 2,750m
Lae 2,439m
Fuaʻamotu 2,681m
Auckland 3,635m
Wellington 2,081m
Christchurch 3,288m
Whenuapei 2,031m
Ohakea 2,445m
Hamilton 2,059m
Rotorua 2,114m

They are either ICAO approved International Airports or US military fields and spread around every territorial jurisdiction in the North and South Pacific. They are all within easy reach of a B777-200ER.

As per the Future Strategic Air Mobility - Air Domain statement above: Operations in the Pacific and globally will require an air transport option for the movement of personnel, equipment and stores over long ranges.

It is pretty much the only option that can do all that the current B757 can do but all at the same time and over a much greater range.

Hmm interesting, thanks for posting that. Does hot & humid Sth.pac atmosphere add to the required TO distance? I'm seeing figures 2300m+ for the B777-200 but there's so many variables in the equation.