There were some comments out of the CN office during the ANZAC Frigate debate during the 80's that the min length to operate in the Southern Ocean was 110m. It was published but I have never been able to find the source, but it did stand out for me at the time.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
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That makes things easier. There's also the wave buoy that is down in the Southern Ocean at the moment which is giving good data.
There are two:
VARD 7 110 - Vard Marine
The Vard 7 110 is a dynamically stable design capable of multiple missions in naval operations, maritime security, border patrol and search and rescue operations. The platform is capable of safely launching and recovering cutter boats and helicopters in sea state 5. Stabilizer fins provide...
vardmarine.com
VARD 7 125 - Vard Marine
The VARD 7 125 is a multi-purpose patrol vessel designed to enhance and maintain comprehensive defence capabilities, provide maritime strike and interdiction support, perform EEZ patrol, and aid in humanitarian assistance operations. The vessel’s hullform offers high speed and significant range...
vardmarine.com
The -7-110 would just meet the criteria whilst the -7-125 would be better. Shows you why the current OPV at 85 m get knocked around down there.
I disagree, the VARD-7-100-ICE is not an icebreaker nor claims to be one. It is ice strengthened to the next level higher than the Aotearoa. Lucas's post discusses the length issue and so they are 10 m short if Lucas is correct, which I believe he is.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The political opposition calls it a slushbreaker.
I remember reading some were that it was designed to travel through 1 metre of ice at 3 knots and if you look at the photos you can see that the bow is similar to an ice breaking shape, the other give away is the large amount of installed power the ship has to reach 17 knots.
Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ship | Fleet & Units | Royal Canadian Navy
Information about the Royal Canadian Navy Harry Dewolf-Class Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ship
www.navy-marine.forces.gc.ca
Harry DeWolf-class offshore patrol vessel - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I remember a post which said that the wave data from the wave buoy in the southern ocean was even more extreme than expected so this could mean that the acceptable minimum length is even greater than 110 metres and that is the minimum asked for and not necessarily an ideal length.
Length is not the be all and end all; to take the example of two ships which regularly operate successfully in the Southern Ocean, Aurora Australis is 95 metres and Ocean Protector 106. There are many other examples. Hull design appropriate to task and anticipated environment is the most important thing.
Whilst the bow may be similar, it is not an icebreaker. It is a VARD-7-100-ICE-AOPV and that is not an icebreaker; nowhere in the Vard or RCN literature is there a claim for it being an icebreaker. If it was, the Canadians would not be looking at building a new icebreaker.
What I was referring to in the shape of the bow was not its Ice Breaking ability but rather its lack of hydrodynamic efficiency. which I think is born out by the the high amount of installed power require to achieve 17 knots and that this would lead to higher operating costs, also being built to polar ice class 5 is hardly necessary for the published tasks of the SOPV which would be an unnecessary expense.
I am only referring to what experienced Naval officers have stated and yes a lot smaller ships can operate there including our 85m OPVs which I understand can be very interesting at times. I think that due to the SOPV being expected to stay at sea for extended periods of time the design will need to ensure that the ship motion is as least fatiguing for the crew as possible.
I suspect that the reason in the first place for the SOPV was the interesting times the crews of the OPVs were having when sent on patrol in the southern ocean, as if it was just a case of not enough ships they could have simply built a repeat of what they had as they are are ice protected.
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The late Capt Ian Bradley was one of them. He was a former Assistant Chief of Naval Staff and ranking Captain in what was then 11th Frigate Squadron in the 1980's. Capt Bradley in the context of the Southern Ocean, around the time the OPV's were ordered 15 years ago or so, said they needed to be at least around the length of the Canterbury. He said this when he was a guest on the Larry Williams Drivetime Show on Newstalk ZB at the time. Remember that well and even took notes at the time while listening.
Why isn't Polar Class 5 required? The waters around Antarctica and the Antarctic coast are becoming more attractive to both state and non state actors, as competition for protein and resources intensify because of depletion of resources in other regions of the planet.
The Protector Class OPV are Finnish Swedish Ice Class 1C, meaning that they can only enter unconsolidated ice channels during the summer where the ice is no more than 0.6 m thick. IC doesn't even feature on the Polar Class Scale. PC 5 is year round first year medium ice and old ice inclusions. As fish stocks further deplete, we will have problems in the region and we will require ships capable of operating in the conditions down there. It's no good having a ship that can only do half the job.
The other thing is that once the ice sheets start melting, as the climate and oceans warms, there will be an increase in the number of icebergs in the adjacent waters as there are more frequently calvings. With the increase in calving and melting, there is an increase in ice river flow velocity from the hinterland to the coast recharging the sheets. The ice sheets melt from the bottom rather than the top because of the year round increases in median water temperature, as warmer water currents have pushed further south. Over time there is a net loss of ice mass because the recharge rate is unable to keep up with the calving rate and the melt rate.
This loss of ice makes the continent and its surroundings more attractive to both state and non state actors for the extraction of resources. At present whilst it is protected by the Antarctic Treaty until 2043 and the Mining Accord until 2048, both the Treaty and Accord are based upon a consensus format. If one signatory decided to abrogate its responsibilities under both the Treaty and Accord, there is not much that the other signatories could do about it. There is no mechanism to remove them from the continent.
At present given the geostrategic and geopolitical conditions, along with the increasing global population and reduction of available protein and resources, I don't hold much hope that the Antarctic Treaty and the Mining Accord will be successfully renegotiated. Certain nations such as the PRC and Russia and some others will be wanting to extract the riches from there. We have a significant territorial claim there as does Australia and we should be prepared to defend that claim, as should Australia there claim. Just because the US doesn't recognise those claims isn't the end of the world
That is why I take the view that we should have proper ice capable vessels for Antarctica. I am taking the long view and the CCP leaders in Beijing most definitely will be. They have a lot of mouths to feed and a lot of industries to support to ensure their survival of their imperial dynasty.
Most of what you say I agree with except for the polar class 5, as I would think that extracting protein in conditions requiring this level of ice protection would be extremely difficult and I doubt that any commercial operators would try to, I agree that illegal operations are likely to significantly increase in the future. I would think that most of the illegal operations carried out would be by standard commercial ships that would have little or no ice protection themselves. personally I think that one SOPV is not enough and for the future we should have at least 2 but with design features ( high aircon ) to allow them to operate into the northern extent of our responsibilities in the off season.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
The RNZN's newest ship HMNZS Aotearoa is currently sailing to New Zealand from South Korea.
Credit to the Royal New Zealand Air Force Orion crew for the awesome shot
Only two more days and she will be here in New Zealand... Any locals going to go meet her.. and get some action photo's lol
Credit to the Royal New Zealand Air Force Orion crew for the awesome shot
Only two more days and she will be here in New Zealand... Any locals going to go meet her.. and get some action photo's lol
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Ah but the important question will they splice the mainbrace?
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
When was the last official time they did that... ??? I remember having a couple after the last issue...
however unfortunately we are a dry navy aren't we...
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CJohn
Active Member
From this overhead view of Aotearoa we can see the two originally planned aft flight deck alcoves, port and starboard are not present, this may indicate the purpose of the two sponsons aft of the stacks, that being to house the mini typhoon mounts.The RNZN's newest ship HMNZS Aotearoa is currently sailing to New Zealand from South Korea.
Credit to the Royal New Zealand Air Force Orion crew for the awesome shot
Only two more days and she will be here in New Zealand... Any locals going to go meet her.. and get some action photo's lol
Also the storage deck on the foc'sle looks large enough to stow 6 rather than the original 4 TEU's.
If they are for the 25mm gun mounts depression is going to be an issue in dealing with asymmetric threats @ -20 degrees (if small craft get close).
They look a bit small for that; the width looks to be about right for a gangway. If I was mounting VSRSD I would do so behind the bridge, I think, assuming the proper foundations could be put in place. Presume she will get some decoys; they could probably go in that general location as well.
Those TEUs on the bow look like they would cop an awful flogging in the Southern Ocean, their vertical movement and acceleration will be huge.
CJohn
Active Member
Remember, the Mini Typhoon is the lightweight, remote-controlled weapon station based on the Typhoon. It can be fitted with a .50 caliber MG or something lighter.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Apparently she is at anchor of Rangitoto Island
MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic
As for the mini typhoons... well I believe the will be amidship on the superstructure, there is heaps of room and will give the best cover angles. But never can tell... will have to wait and see... if they ever get fitted or not.
MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic
As for the mini typhoons... well I believe the will be amidship on the superstructure, there is heaps of room and will give the best cover angles. But never can tell... will have to wait and see... if they ever get fitted or not.
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She sure is. Since early this morning. Had a friend post it on her Facebook page. Wonder if there's any live streaming of the arrival tomorrow.