Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

He wanted it built. It will be bigger, better. There'll be cost savings too, since what was cutting edge in the eighties is now commonplace. But as before he didn't exactly survey the market first.

That's what happens during IPTN era too. Habibie's good engineer, he's good aircraft designer. Well he's good position in German Aircraft Industry, prove that. However from what I got info during that time, he's also want to build the best airliner on the class that only need economics and dependable.
Basically he wants to build S Class or 7 Series in the market that only need Camry or Hyundai Elantra. He didn't like Soeharto's economics team when confronted him on what's really market need. He's also didn't like them, cause they try to convince Soeharto to get foreign established producer as partner that can control the scope of project, while make sure the plane can be marketed properly.

Habibie's and the people around him seems playing down the abilities to provide good financing packages and marketing access, that Indonesia simply can't provide and didn't have experience on doing that.

His concept for regional jets Airliners in the form of N2130 actually was quite ahead at the time. If N2130 come out in the 90's instead N250 for example, he can beat Embrear or Bombardier timing on entering the regional Jets market. It doesn't guaranteed it will be successful in the market, however perhaps he can attracted more foreign Investors on N2130.

However his insistence to go alone (eventough Habibie's colleagues in Airbus from what I heard already hinting possibility for partnership in the project), simply Overestimate the Indonesian capabilities at that time (heck even this time around) on financing the projects. Seems He and people around him only thinking the cost to develop and build the plane, and not study much on the aspects of marketing and customers financing. Yes, he's planning to build facilities in US for N250 and N2130 (especially for that regional Jets project), to get closer to the market. However he wants to do it alone, when IPTN still (in term of Aerospace Industry) still a toddler learning to walk.

This kind of thinking still take preference in his RAI company with the people around them.
In the 80's and 90's somehow he can manage Soeharto thus silence the critics from the economics team that need to find money to finance it. The thinking that circulate on the idea, as long as we can build good plane, then the market will take it. Well, commercial market did not work like that.

One point from a North American perspective. There are many destinations that regional turboprops serve in the 300-600 mi range

Yes, and that market (below 600mi or 1000 km) does not need 70-90 pac Turboprop, since most of the market only serve thin regional routes that Airlines only need 40-50 capacity Turboprop at most.
Regional Jets already become efficient enough, that they are begin to replace 70+ capacity Turboprop. Thus the market for this R80 is already dwindling. When you travel 1500-2000km routes, the speed of regional Jets make it capable on doing two sorties at the time Turboprop only can do 1 sortie. It matter much on the economics of operation.

As for driving, yes at this time around many people maybe preference on that. However if the COVID become controllable. Then just as to situation in Japan and Europe, that range will not be attractive for most customers for land transport toward Flight (even in 50 pac turboprop). Unless you also have efficient network of High Speed train.

 

[John Fedup]

A little off topic but I wonder if air circulation in rail cars is less problematic than airline cabins from a COVID perspective? Unfortunately here in Canada passenger rail is poor hence the success of regional turboprops but A220s will at some point replace them in Canada for most routes.

 

[Ananda]

Not an expert in air circulation/conditioning, just talk on experience. When I travel regular train that run 100-150 km at most the Air seems regulated from outside air more often. However, at least in my experience, when I travel using Shinkansen in Japan, seems the air circulation feels more like the system used in Airliners.

I don't know on other High Speed Train, but a friend that already using High Speed train in China, Europe and Japan saying that he feels the air circulation similar on all those High Speed train.

However even Airliners air circulation system capable and circulated outside air from time to time, at least that my understanding.

 

[ChestnutTree]

Not sure whether to put this on the Army, Navy, or Air Force thread. I figured the Air Force section would be best as they're the ones who are usually doing the C4ISR/Network Integration roles across the Armed Forces.

The original article is in Greek.

Η ελληνική SCYTALYS αναλαμβάνει έργο των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων της Ινδονησίας

Η εταιρία SCYTALYS, ανακοίνωσε σήμερα την ανάθεση σύμβασης από το Υπουργείο Άμυνας της Ινδονησίας αξίας $49 εκατομμυρίων, κατόπιν διεξαγωγής ανοιχτού διεθνούς διαγωνισμού, για την παροχή ολοκληρωμ

www.sofokleousin.gr

Essentially Greek IT Defense company SCYTALYS has won the open tender for thecreation and integration of a national command and control/datalink system for the Indonesian Armed Forces.


SCYTALYS is expected to implement within a 3-year time frame the following sections:

A) Design and development of the National Regular Data System.
B) Design and development of a Business Center consisting of a state-of-the-art C4ISR system, including the construction of new infrastructure where it will operate. This system will achieve the composition of the Common Operational Picture with the immediate impact of strengthening the Situational Awareness.
C) Interconnection of multiple Command Centers by all the bodies of the Armed Forces with the central C4ISR system.
D) Design and development of a Surveillance and Monitoring system, interconnected with the central C4ISR system in order to enhance the Awareness of Operational Status and Interoperability.

Would be interested to see who the other bidders involved were.

 

[Ananda]

Not sure whether to put this on the Army, Navy, or Air Force thread. I figured the Air Force section would be best as they're the ones who are usually doing the C4ISR/Network Integration roles across the Armed Forces.

I can't say on Defense IT vendors, but in commercial/financial sectors there're Vendors with good global reputation originated from Greece (or have development infrastructure in Greece). Mostly they begin their business as sub contractor from US, UK or German more known IT vendors. I suspect this SKYTALYS begin their business and reputation from that too.

 

[Ananda]

Jokowi Bertemu Empat Mata dengan SBY di Bali

video.tempo.co

One TNI-AU Hawk 200 crash in residential area this morning. The pilot manage to bail out, and on other media being reported the fighter crash into empty house. The crash happen near the fighter operational home in Pekanbaru AB.
No information yet on what the cause of the crash, but attrition rate on Hawk 200/100 in the inventory for the last 25 years, from what I gather is one of the reason wirh the plan to merge Hawk from two squadron to just one.

Hawk 200/100 already being proposed by TNI-AU for replacement. However the question now is whether with FA-50 or F-16V.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Jokowi Bertemu Empat Mata dengan SBY di Bali

video.tempo.co

One TNI-AU Hawk 200 crash in residential area this morning. The pilot manage to bail out, and on other media being reported the fighter crash into empty house. The crash happen near the fighter operational home in Pekanbaru AB.
No information yet on what the cause of the crash, but attrition rate on Hawk 200/100 in the inventory for the last 25 years, from what I gather is one of the reason wirh the plan to merge Hawk from two squadron to just one.

Hawk 200/100 already being proposed by TNI-AU for replacement. However the question now is whether with FA-50 or F-16V.

Thanks...
I just found it on Indonesian Air Force Hawk 209 jet fighter crashes in residential area of Riau

TT-0209 is such a perfect registration number.
Luckily the pilot survived and there are also no casualties on the ground.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Jokowi Bertemu Empat Mata dengan SBY di Bali

video.tempo.co

One TNI-AU Hawk 200 crash in residential area this morning. The pilot manage to bail out, and on other media being reported the fighter crash into empty house. The crash happen near the fighter operational home in Pekanbaru AB.
No information yet on what the cause of the crash, but attrition rate on Hawk 200/100 in the inventory for the last 25 years, from what I gather is one of the reason wirh the plan to merge Hawk from two squadron to just one.

Hawk 200/100 already being proposed by TNI-AU for replacement. However the question now is whether with FA-50 or F-16V.

Both the FA-50 and F-16V are improvements over the Hawk Mk209. TNI-AU needs fighters with enough range at Supadio to cover Natuna, so its logic if SkU 1's Hawk are replaced by FA-50 or F-16s. On the other hand replacing the Hawks from SkU 12 with F-16s makes it operationally and logistically easier for TNI-AU, because of SkU 16.

 

[Ananda]

It will be interesting to see what LM offer for F-16V. Whether it's new build or upgrade from Blk 32/40 that USAF now has in surplus.
Last time they offered with the same Budget of 8 newly build Blk 52 or 24 Blk 25 upgrade to Blk 52. Indonesia choose the latter as more quantity on same Budget. Blk 25 being choose to similarities with existing Blk 15 OCU.

Read somewhere long time ago (perhaps on F-16 net), that Taiwan Blk 20 actually closer to USAF Blk 40. LM call it A/B Blk 20, just to not shown the US actually give Taiwan same F-16 as their most advance F-16 at that time.
For that, Taiwan A/B make smooth transition to V version as seems 'Blk 40' can be easily upgrade to V version.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

At last some updatenews from the N219-program.

The N219 prototypes have reached the 330 flighthours milestone!

(Picture taken from the IPTN facebook account)

 

[Ahmad]

At last some updatenews from the N219-program.

The N219 prototypes have reached the 330 flighthours milestone!View attachment 47443

(Picture taken from the IPTN facebook account)

Good news. I though 300 hours means the completion of the testing. I read some where ago where DI official said in order to complete the flight test, N 219 need to fly 300 hours.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Good news. I though 300 hours means the completion of the testing. I read some where ago where DI official said in order to complete the flight test, N 219 need to fly 300 hours.

Yes, you are right. Probably this article: PTDI Target Kirim Pesawat N219 Pertama di 2022

When the construction started of the first prototype in 2014, certification wqs planned in 2016, with first delivery in 2017. Last year IPTN expected that the certification would be finished in 2019. And now the first delivery is planned for 2022-2023.....with of course again huge chance for delays.

Well, the Canadians and Americans will be very happy with a concurrent like IPTN, because they get more chance this way to take their marketshares for the DHC-6 Twin Otter and Cessna 408 SkyCourier.

 

[Ahmad]

Yes, you are right. Probably this article: PTDI Target Kirim Pesawat N219 Pertama di 2022

When the construction started of the first prototype in 2014, certification wqs planned in 2016, with first delivery in 2017. Last year IPTN expected that the certification would be finished in 2019. And now the first delivery is planned for 2022-2023.....with of course again huge chance for delays.

Well, the Canadians and Americans will be very happy with a concurrent like IPTN, because they get more chance this way to take their marketshares for the DHC-6 Twin Otter and Cessna 408 SkyCourier.

According to recent PTDI Director statement, N 245 program development is still continuing with the financing coming from internal PTDI budget. Look like it is currently under detail design phase. According to him, PTDI uses 14 % of its internal budget to finance the current development. CN 235-220 C (civil version) project also keep continuing. While I read somewhere that MALE UAV will undergo maiden flight in the end of this year inshaAllah.

The coming back of 114 PTDI designers from South Korea in May this year IMO will also be beneficial for N 245 program. PTDI will have enough resources to do the development. While KFX/IFX has already been in manufacturing phase for first prototype that according to recent news will likely be able to complete the first prototype in the second semester of this year. As we know the first engine has already been delivered to South Korea from USA.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I haven't found this news on the website of Lockheed-Martin yet, but it seems that the US firm will deliver three AN/TPS-77 MRR (Multi Role Radar) to Indonesia and Malaysia (i expect three to each country).

US donates TPS-77 long-range surveillance radar to Malaysia and Indonesia

The U.S. Government will provide three Lockheed Martin long-range mobile radars to Malaysia and Indonesia worth $77 million, as revealed by a notice of contract action dated 9 June on the US govern…

www.globaldefensecorp.com

AN/TPS-77 (formerly known as the AN/TPS-117) is an L-Band, 3-D, tactical transportable long-range air surveillance radar with a maximum range of around 460- 470 km (250 nm). It is a mobile version of the AN/FPS-117 and air transportable in a single C-130.

Image taken from the Lockheed-Martin website.

 

[Ananda]

First F414 Engine for KFX/IFX program has been delivered to South Korea

Ahmad, please put everything concerning KFX in this thread S.Korea, Indonesia to develop 4.5 gen fighter aircraft KFX

1. That thread created for topic related to all KFX/IFX, thus being put in separate thread from Indonesian AF thread, and ROKAF thread,
2. Until Indonesia clear still in the program, there's no IFX, and only KFX so far.

EDIT: I have moved Ahmad's engine post over there.
Ngatimozart.

 

[Ananda]

Deretan Jet Tempur Bidikan Prabowo, Dari Sukhoi Hingga Rafale

Pengadaan jet tempur menjadi salah satu usulan Prabowo dari total anggaran Rp 129,3 triliun di 2021.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

Seems the latest information on Parliament support for the administration to beef up defense budget on 2021 increase Local Media speculation on what Assets that will be aim for Procurement by MinDef.

Naval talk before on two Iver based large Frigate and also talk on Sigma 10514 PKR #3&4, now also give speculation on Fighters program.
The assets talk still same on Rafale, Su-35 or F-16V. Some media and local forums speculation still shown support for Su-35, especially come from media that support 'diversification' idea.

As my own speculation, F-16V will still have the preference as talk on AF and DI gaining more cooperation with LM on more F-16 supporting infrastructure training and development.

Question now will the Su-35 still being acquired or replace by Rafale ?

Interview from Deputy Defense Minister on the 'talk' with US on F-35 as alternative for Indonesia on dropping Su-35, can also be 'intepreted' that eventough F-16 will be the back bone, but MinDef and AF still at least want to have one squadron of more 'cappable' fighters (than F-16 even the 'V' version) in the matter of operational range and capabilities and also Tech.

That choice seems either Su-35 or Rafale, if the US still not give F-35 based on thinking of at least one squadron of more advance Fighter for keeping the 'learning curve' until Indonesian AF can afford more squadron of the 'advance' fighter.

Question for myself, since when Rafale or Su-35 is considered more advance than F-16 V ?
This talk on more advance SQ than F-16..seems no more than talk from 'diversification' camp on getting defense procurement project from outside US.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I know i am repeating myself again, but i already give it up, after all those years of "we plan to" "punya rencana" "ingin" "interested in" "wish for" "sudah pasti akan datang!......mungkin" reports. Until now nothing happen (the large acquisition programs). Only some armoured vehicles (Pandurs, BTR-4M), an LPD and some helicopters are ordered AND delivered.

Like the last 6 years we already did....lets wait and see.

 

[Ananda]

Well it's slow months of defense news in Indonesia....Besides, sometimes putting the local news speculation on defense procurement can be entertaining.

For me, there's bit hope of more progress on Defense procurement project, compared to condition on previous term MinDef. I'm looking that based on the progress of current MinDef budget preparation.
As I've mentioned before, previous term MinDef procurement poor progress has big part cause due to their poor budget and procurement process. Seems current term so far shown more 'systematics' approach on planning and budget preparation.

Now will be remain to be seen, if they also manage on better implementation. This is the weakness on Jokowi's administration in several ministry. In fact their progress planning implementation during this COVID 19 condition also shown poor performance on some area.

Thus eventough the project planning management so far shown better preparation, in the end all come back to how the implementation being execute. And that's what need to be seen.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Not an expert in air circulation/conditioning, just talk on experience. When I travel regular train that run 100-150 km at most the Air seems regulated from outside air more often. However, at least in my experience, when I travel using Shinkansen in Japan, seems the air circulation feels more like the system used in Airliners.

I don't know on other High Speed Train, but a friend that already using High Speed train in China, Europe and Japan saying that he feels the air circulation similar on all those High Speed train.

However even Airliners air circulation system capable and circulated outside air from time to time, at least that my understanding.

Most airliners recycle/reuse a part of the cabin air. This recirculated air is mixed with fresh air from outside (ram-air) or the engines (compressor bleed air). This mixture is blown from overhead blowers and the ceilings. Old/used dirty air is then sucked away in openings close to the floor, the galleys and lavatories. This dirty air is partly thrown overboard (outflow valves) and partly filtered for reuse.

Smaller airplanes use often air from the outside and normal AC-systems. Larger airliners use a more complicated system for pressurization and temperature regulation with bleed air taken from the airducts originated from APU or engines. This air is often cooled with ram-air from outside through heat exchangers.

So thats why weird regulations like 50% load factor or skipping one row is completely useless and impossible for airliners to accept and handle.

Deretan Jet Tempur Bidikan Prabowo, Dari Sukhoi Hingga Rafale

Pengadaan jet tempur menjadi salah satu usulan Prabowo dari total anggaran Rp 129,3 triliun di 2021.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

Seems the latest information on Parliament support for the administration to beef up defense budget on 2021 increase Local Media speculation on what Assets that will be aim for Procurement by MinDef.

Naval talk before on two Iver based large Frigate and also talk on Sigma 10514 PKR #3&4, now also give speculation on Fighters program.
The assets talk still same on Rafale, Su-35 or F-16V. Some media and local forums speculation still shown support for Su-35, especially come from media that support 'diversification' idea.

As my own speculation, F-16V will still have the preference as talk on AF and DI gaining more cooperation with LM on more F-16 supporting infrastructure training and development.

Question now will the Su-35 still being acquired or replace by Rafale ?

Interview from Deputy Defense Minister on the 'talk' with US on F-35 as alternative for Indonesia on dropping Su-35, can also be 'intepreted' that eventough F-16 will be the back bone, but MinDef and AF still at least want to have one squadron of more 'cappable' fighters (than F-16 even the 'V' version) in the matter of operational range and capabilities and also Tech.

That choice seems either Su-35 or Rafale, if the US still not give F-35 based on thinking of at least one squadron of more advance Fighter for keeping the 'learning curve' until Indonesian AF can afford more squadron of the 'advance' fighter.

Question for myself, since when Rafale or Su-35 is considered more advance than F-16 V ?
This talk on more advance SQ than F-16..seems no more than talk from 'diversification' camp on getting defense procurement project from outside US.

The highest priority is actually the replacement of the F-5s from SkU 14. The F-16, Rafale or Sukhois (any version) are all superior compared to the F-5E/F. But if we look to SkU 14, than the best candidate is the F-16 in my opinion. Not only the whole base is built and equipped to handle american jetfighters, but two F-16 squadrons (and one T-50) on one base is so much more practical and efficiently than a mixed base.
Maybe for other bases like Supadio, Natuna or somewhere in the eastern part of Indonesia, TNI-AU can station non-american fighters.

 

[Ananda]

But if we look to SkU 14, than the best candidate is the F-16 in my opinion. Not only the whole base is built and equipped to handle american jetfighters, but two F-16 squadrons (and one T-50) on one base is so much more practical and efficiently than a mixed base.

Actually if we see from that perspective, all replacement whether for F-5 or Hawk later on should be either with F-16. Simply TNI-AU have more experience to support F-16 compared to other fighters including Flankers.
TNI-AU now already done MLU for F-16, thus basically already have enough support infrastructure for F-16 including for heavy maintenance.

This after all the main cost and capabilities to support readiness of one type of Fighter plane.