Royal New Zealand Air Force

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There has been too much discussion about the RNZAF defending NZ against invasion by some foreign ogre, to me that’s simply implausible and lacks geopolitical reality.
A high number of conflicts over the ages have until they have happened been implausible and while hind sight will say we should have seen it coming we never do. Assuming you can see all the possibilities is a recipe for disaster. As has been reported previously that a US Army report was predicting the breakdown of world order in 20 years, so to assume that you can predict who your enemy will be and were they will come from is foolhardy as history teaches us. For instance 20 years prior to the second world war both Italy and Japan were allies. As was said in one of the die hard movies " ASSUMPTION IS THE MOTHER OF ALL F--K UPS ". Any potential aggressor will always target the area you did not think was possible and do what was thought to be unrealistic or impossible. History is full of this. The Future confictics when world order does break down will in all probability be over 2 main resources "FOOD and WATER' and this was predicted s long ago as 2005 by the London university strategic studies department plus of course the US army. As the old saying goes "There are none so blind as them that will not see". We ignore possibilities at our peril.
Guess what we have a surplus of.
 

htbrst

Active Member
AT6 Wolverines! Perfect for this, they can perfectly compliment the ADF Tigers, they can add all their capabilities, FAC, ISR, CAS et al.
They can self deploy, Auckland to Noumea, 900 nms, Noumea to Honiara/Henderson 800nms.
They provide a real contribution to a COIN Operation which is unique.
On some level an appropriately equipped King Air could be a reasonable option too as it's an in-service aircraft but with better ISR capability, range etc and could be better sold to the public with respect to use for SAR and low-level maritime patrol.

It would be limited to Hellfire though (as is used by Iraq) but ultimately may be more palatable than purchasing an armed UAV or helicopter system.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Well all this discussion is interesting to say the least, but to come back to reality what should replace NZ Seasprite’s they are due for replacement in 10 years so in theory the program to replace should be starting in a couple of years
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
Well all this discussion is interesting to say the least, but to come back to reality what should replace NZ Seasprite’s they are due for replacement in 10 years so in theory the program to replace should be starting in a couple of years
Given that the RAN seem very happy with the Sikorsky MH-60R Seahawk, I would have thought that it would be a prime candidate for consideration.
It seems to be muti mission capable ...."The primary missions of the 'Romeo' helicopter is anti-submarine warfare and anti-surface warfare. Secondary missions include search and rescue, logistics support, personnel transport and medical evacuation "

Seems to fit the bill.
MB
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
There has been too much discussion about the RNZAF defending NZ against invasion by some foreign ogre, to me that’s simply implausible and lacks geopolitical reality.
So, what capability does the Airforce need to support NZ strategic interests in the region?
Let me pose a scenario that is not totally off the planet but is illustrative of a number of scenarios to our northern regions.
The Chinese have created a base in Tulagi in the Solomon Islands. The Honiara government is burdened by huge debt to the Chinese, is unable to make the repayments and places a moratorium on any future repayments.
This angers the CCP so they plan to overthrow the government and to this end the begin arming rebels who believe their future lies firmly with courting the Chinese and thus becoming a puppet government.
As well as controlling Tulagi, they occupy Santa Isobel and Malaita and are preparing, with Chinese help, to invade Guadalcanal/Honiara.
Naturally the Aust and NZ governments find this totally unacceptable, have backed the Honiara government and have deployed COIN Ops forces to assist.
So, what can the RNZAF bring to the operation which adds to or is complimentary to the ADF?
Fast jets? No. Armed Helos? No but what?
And this is where I bang my favourite drum;
AT6 Wolverines! Perfect for this, they can perfectly compliment the ADF Tigers, they can add all their capabilities, FAC, ISR, CAS et al.
They can self deploy, Auckland to Noumea, 900 nms, Noumea to Honiara/Henderson 800nms.
They provide a real contribution to a COIN Operation which is unique.

This is not an unrealistic scenario and could be true for any number of possible failed states in our region.
Yes NZ having to defend itself against invasion is highly unlikely... not implausible but unlikely. No-one would expect NZ to do it alone... this is why we have international defence alliances...we lean on those to provide a deterrent against the possibility of such action. The blunt fact is NZ as a nation of 5 million in an area bigger than the UK will never afford the $$$ capabilities to stop an invasion. However yes - NZ should contribute more than it does to those alliances, at least we can all agree on that eh!

ASSAIL - you're synopsis of a 'Tulagi crisis' is very much the sort of scenario that I expect we will see with the potential for conflict in our region - ones that we will be actually expected to step-up to the plate on... but importantly this will not be on our own. Other variations we could see are pretty much what we got in East Timor; the Bougainville operation etc.. both actual examples we've dealt with.

Actually I do agree the AT6 could be useful in such scenarios - it all depends on the ability to self-deploy under the umbrella of allied air-superiority, and for all support personnel, equipment, deployed maintenance facilities, operational command facilities weapons etc etc etc... to be both flown & (sea) shipped in... one reason we need more transport a/c as a higher priority. It also requires a secure base and the a/c not having to operate at extreme range - to allow meaningful range and loiter time with underwing stores.

NZ is a light force by it's own definition as well as by most people's standards... I'd love to see Apache etc but trying to be realistic about budgets and political will etc I can see that ADF would be lent on to provide the big guns (incl. Tiger etc) but I do believe a handful of AT6 would bring a significant new dimension to the RNZAF's place in a such a regional crisis. It is an extension of a current a/c type it making it's supportability that much more achievable, and therefore affordable.

Whilst not real high-end the AT6 is admirably suited to the type of operation described above, where those deployability pre-conditions exist of course. I'd rather see an AT6 overhead when Nh-90 are operating in & out than relying solely on the door gunners aboard (although I'd retain the latter too). This gets back to my post from yesterday where I mooted a return to the concept of 14 sqn of old with the 11 T6C added to with say 6 AT6, doing JTAC training at home etc.

Yes it's customer is primarily Army...so what, we are striving to be a joint force... no room for outdated inter-service rivalry these days... especially with such a small defence force. 6 squadron works well...sole customer = Navy!

Anyway having rambled on all about the AT6, none of this should happen until DCP priorities are addressed and extended... eg: Enhanced Maritime Awareness with 2nd tier MPA & Satellites with eventual UAV; C130J-30 (but more than 5); 2 x LPD (or variations thereof); and slightly enlarged 3 sqn.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Given that the RAN seem very happy with the Sikorsky MH-60R Seahawk, I would have thought that it would be a prime candidate for consideration.
It seems to be muti mission capable ...."The primary missions of the 'Romeo' helicopter is anti-submarine warfare and anti-surface warfare. Secondary missions include search and rescue, logistics support, personnel transport and medical evacuation "

Seems to fit the bill.
MB

LOL yes and as per my post just now rambling away, the SH2G replacement is a priority DCP project that needs to be completed before we think AT6 or whatever... in fact the SH2G replacement is one NZ must absolutely get 'right' too! Arguably as it currently stands both MH-60R & NH-90 NFH would be the top contenders if the project were out for tender at present... but neither is a given...plenty of water to pass under that bridge yet.

<after-thought> NH90-NFH won't squeeze on an OPV so maybe it'll be a 2 tier solution but then again new OPV may be bigger.
 

At lakes

Well-Known Member
The French are promoting their H160M for all three of their services, a true multi role helo in the six ton class. Leonardo has the AW159 Wildcat which they promote as a multi role helo the in six ton class as well. Sikorsky has been around for a wee while and one has to question as to how long Sikorsky will support it, mind you so has the Wildcat. As Gibbo suggested the obvious choice is the NH90 NFH but it may be a bit of a squeeze on a OPV so logic would suggest the pollies would have to look at a 2 tier solution, sorry I used the word logic and Pollies is the same sentence. But who ever NZ is looking at negotiating a free trade agreement with at the time is what we will end up with, to hell with what the Navy wants.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The French are promoting their H160M for all three of their services, a true multi role helo in the six ton class. Leonardo has the AW159 Wildcat which they promote as a multi role helo the in six ton class as well. Sikorsky has been around for a wee while and one has to question as to how long Sikorsky will support it, mind you so has the Wildcat. As Gibbo suggested the obvious choice is the NH90 NFH but it may be a bit of a squeeze on a OPV so logic would suggest the pollies would have to look at a 2 tier solution, sorry I used the word logic and Pollies is the same sentence. But who ever NZ is looking at negotiating a free trade agreement with at the time is what we will end up with, to hell with what the Navy wants.
There are a number of factors which would need to be considered, if and when NZ decides to replace the Seasprites. From my POV there is no clear, obvious choice simply due to the tradeoffs between the choices.

The MH-60 (R or S) Seahawk entered service with the USN in 2006, so while it is based off the older SH-60 of S-70B Seahawk, I would not consider it a 'dated' design at this point. The major concern I would have if the MH-60 were selected is whether or not it is still in production at the time the NZDF would want to start taking deliveries.

The NFH90 is a possible contender, but there are some caveats. The first and probably most major is that it is a comparatively big bird, and as such is really unsuitable for deployment aboard current RNZN vessels with the possible exception of HMNZS Canterbury, which lacks facilities to support arming a naval helicopter with anything heavier than HMG's. This is a problem IMO since IIRC the Seasprites are really due for replacement by the end of this decade, which is about five years before the frigates will start getting replaced. Based off testing the RAN did, the hangar aboard ANZAC-class frigates can fit a NH90 helicopter, just barely. As I understand it, it is such a tight squeeze that the hangar is too small for practical embarking. If commitments were made to have enlarged hangar facilities aboard upcoming and future RNZN vessels, then the NFH90 might be a viable choice.

The AW159 is also a potential candidate, but I do wonder whether or not it would be in production in a decade.

The Airbus H160M is also a possibility, though I would guess it as less likely as a potential candidate. My reasoning is that, as of right now, a mockup of the H160M has been made, but no flying prototype exists yet and that is not anticipated until 2021 or 2022, so the aircraft it still in development. While this might not seem like an issue for a replacement aircraft that would need to have deliveries start in ~10 years, that is sort of where the problem lies. Deliveries to the armed forces of France are currently expected to start in the 2026-2028 time frame, or between two and four years before NZ would likely want/need to take delivery. I would be concerned about NZ being able to get H160M production slots in time for the helicopter to be brought into service by when the Seasprites need to retire.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
My own preference for Seasprite replacement is the NHI NFH because it's the same basic aircraft as the NH90 TTH. The only negative with it at the moment, is the hangar size of the ANZAC class. I'm not keen on the Wildcat, having heard through the grapevine that it is nowhere as good as what the Lynx was. It hasn't had anywhere near the export success that Lynx had. The Airbus H160 is a paper design. That leaves the Romeo and that's my second choice.
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
LOL yes and as per my post just now rambling away, the SH2G replacement is a priority DCP project that needs to be completed before we think AT6 or whatever... in fact the SH2G replacement is one NZ must absolutely get 'right' too! Arguably as it currently stands both MH-60R & NH-90 NFH would be the top contenders if the project were out for tender at present... but neither is a given...plenty of water to pass under that bridge yet.

<after-thought> NH90-NFH won't squeeze on an OPV so maybe it'll be a 2 tier solution but then again new OPV may be bigger.
Logic (notably absent from political decisions) would suggest that the NF-90 NFH should be the preferred replacement for the SH-2G Seasprites. This would negate the requirement for a new logistic support chain, training system and maintenance facilities. It would require a higher than current spend for the additional spares etc, but still far less than for a completely new aircraft type. This approach would also increase the number of NH-90 airframes that could be tasked in any particular situation.
Some of the savings could be used to get a small UAS, such as the S-100 Camcopter, to be operated from the existing OPV. It would not cover the full range of tasks of a manned helicopter, but it would meet the ISR type tasks. This would mean that a new OPV would not be needed to meet the helicopter choice (otherwise tail wagging the dog situation).
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
My own preference for Seasprite replacement is the NHI NFH because it's the same basic aircraft as the NH90 TTH. The only negative with it at the moment, is the hangar size of the ANZAC class. I'm not keen on the Wildcat, having heard through the grapevine that it is nowhere as good as what the Lynx was. It hasn't had anywhere near the export success that Lynx had. The Airbus H160 is a paper design. That leaves the Romeo and that's my second choice.
Agree about the H160, paper designs are trouble waiting to happen. The RCN/RCAF know that only too well after the Cyclone saga.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the nh90 tth about $20k a flight hour? The nfh will be way more. I believe that is more than a chinook in the larger user's experience.
That is alot of hours training not afforded for 3 sqn and the army units that are supposed to get exposure to these assets.

I would strongly support re-equiping with blackhawks and romeos with chinooks to complement.

AH in my opinion will never fly for us. Simply because it has attack in the name and NZDF seemingly can't win a propaganda war against treasury and peace action aotearoa let alone a modern military.

Loyal wingman would be a non-starter for equally political reasons and even though it is a competitors product offers a great insight into the future. One that you need to get on the train for now or be left behind.
I am a big fan of a now dead project (bae) to 3d print (12x6m print bed) a flying wing design UCAV as a low cost proposal that the RAF would own and project manage with BAE as prime support contractor and integrator. I see that as being something to look again at.

I believe though from rumours that electron (Rocketlab) has desirable networking and throw weight potential as an expedient system as a potential df26 lite. Again could be wrong. Possibly cheaper and more discrete than an acf and wouldn't face same crewing issues.
Maybe as the tensions increase Australia provides the radar, Boeing provides the data link and cueing and nz brings the IRBM?
 

Hone C

Active Member
On some level an appropriately equipped King Air could be a reasonable option too as it's an in-service aircraft but with better ISR capability, range etc and could be better sold to the public with respect to use for SAR and low-level maritime patrol.

It would be limited to Hellfire though (as is used by Iraq) but ultimately may be more palatable than purchasing an armed UAV or helicopter system.
The C-130J the RNZAF have on order could also fulfill a similar function through use of the Harvest Hawk system the USMC has developed and rolled out across it's fleet. A capability in service with FEYES for a relatively modest investment. Even better if it was accompanied by a couple more airframes.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Logic (notably absent from political decisions) would suggest that the NF-90 NFH should be the preferred replacement for the SH-2G Seasprites. This would negate the requirement for a new logistic support chain, training system and maintenance facilities. It would require a higher than current spend for the additional spares etc, but still far less than for a completely new aircraft type. This approach would also increase the number of NH-90 airframes that could be tasked in any particular situation.
Some of the savings could be used to get a small UAS, such as the S-100 Camcopter, to be operated from the existing OPV. It would not cover the full range of tasks of a manned helicopter, but it would meet the ISR type tasks. This would mean that a new OPV would not be needed to meet the helicopter choice (otherwise tail wagging the dog situation).
It is not that cut and dry IMO. As @Shanesworld pointed out, the cost per flight hour, plus the maintenance per flight hour, could very well cost more for NFH90's than if the NZDF were to adopt a completely different and new to the NZDF helicopter. I am still very much interested in finding out what the costs, availability, and maintenance burden is for Kiwi NH90's, and how that compares to Australian MRH90's. I remember finding and linking to an Australian ANAO report from 2014-ish on the Australian experiences which at the time, after much improvement, had gotten the maintenance burden down to ~4x that of a S-70A Black Hawk and the availability rate was still below programme requirements. Again, these were the results after improvement work had been done which IIRC had trimmed maintenance hours from ~90+ maintenance hours per flight hour, to ~20 maintenance hours per flight hour.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes NZ having to defend itself against invasion is highly unlikely... not implausible but unlikely. No-one would expect NZ to do it alone... this is why we have international defence alliances...we lean on those to provide a deterrent against the possibility of such action. The blunt fact is NZ as a nation of 5 million in an area bigger than the UK will never afford the $$$ capabilities to stop an invasion. However yes - NZ should contribute more than it does to those alliances, at least we can all agree on that eh!
If a breakdown in world order occurs as predicted could happen in couple of decades from now does happen and I would have to say that as with all predictions there are no guarantees, the alliances we rely on could also collapse. The US army report even mention the possible break down of internal order within the US. A scary thought .
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
If a breakdown in world order occurs as predicted could happen in couple of decades from now does happen and I would have to say that as with all predictions there are no guarantees, the alliances we rely on could also collapse. The US army report even mention the possible break down of internal order within the US. A scary thought .

Yep absolutely... nothing can be totally off the table. However with regard to NZ being able to provide a sustainable defensive capability against invasion without recourse to allies at some point is simply not within our resources... if international alliances collapse then plain & simple NZ is totally farked if anyone decides to invade, end of story really!
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
The C-130J the RNZAF have on order could also fulfill a similar function through use of the Harvest Hawk system the USMC has developed and rolled out across it's fleet. A capability in service with FEYES for a relatively modest investment. Even better if it was accompanied by a couple more airframes.
Yes agreed, if they get the gear as stipulated in the FMS documentation they'll be able to do this (sans weapons) but we'd likely need double the number of C130J if we expected to have a couple staying theatre to perform this role. With only 5 a/c this would make it very difficult for 40sqn to fulfil it's transport requirements (which in such a deployment would be substantial)... even with a B757 or other strategic type in use. By having an AT6 you have something that can focus purely on this role (complementing ADF Tigers) without any extra demand on an already under-pressure transport fleet.

Unfortunately all just hypothetical for now!:(
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
In regard to needing the full spectrum of abilities I think this is wrong for the following reasons,
We have a large moat around us with a minimum with of 2200 km, this means we can only be reached by air or sea over a considerable distance,which is well outside the combat radius of all but some long range transports or bombers.
This paragraph highlights the limitations with kit-focused issues as opposed to looking a the wider issues on the Red and Blue sides.

First the Red mission and intent needs to be considered, as well as their capabilities. NZ can't really be invaded nor struck (as you say, a 2200 km moat). Which makes it very valuable for a Pacific campaign, just as it was in the 1940s. For a FVEY or similar operation this has huge advantages, especially for operations in the SCS or south west Pacific. Which makes it a valuable target if you can effect it - there's likely to be a bunch of third line enablers there that will rapidly impact Blue forces. NZ's critical vulnerability though, is it's an island. It can't survive without imports and it cannot sustain such Blue forces. And it's unlikely you have weeks of supply. It may be worth trying to undermine the FVEY alliance - especially if combined with anti-nuke information operations or similar. Even better - you cut the SLOC to the west and you impact Australia too - stuff from the US has to fight through or go twice as far. At that range, you can't really use aircraft - so submarines and ships are it. Their advantage is they don't even have to come within range of NZ to blockade.

By not considering the likely threat (surface vessels, not bombers), you've under estimated the actual problem. Bombers come to you simplifying the targeting problem - ships don't.

So as I have always said we do need to improve our surveillance so additional P8's and a basic AEW ability. the E 7 would be a total overkill. The ability to destroy or neutralise what was deemed hostile would be needed and this is more about the weapons than the aircraft, Second hand aircraft in the F15,16,18 range would be perfectly adequate if fitted with a good radar and a modern fire control ability say using possibly the CAMM ( similar to what our navy has) for airborne targets and the AGM 158 for surface targets. F 35 again would be overkill

The Idea that you lose all your combat aircraft when attacking ships with missiles is somewhat simplistic especially with modern medium to long range missiles as you have a directing aircraft outside missile range and the attacking aircraft come in under the radar horizon until in range and either fire by data link from the directing aircraft or pop and fire then drop before any defence missiles arrive. The only stealth required would be provided by the AGM 158
This is borderline naive.

1. The threat is building against stealth aircraft and munitions. Its ships and kit are designed to defeat F/A-18E and F-35C. Plus the munitions they bring. Second hand aircraft won't cut it.

2. Second hand aircraft cost more. Sure, the upfront costs are less, but you'll pay more for maintenance, more for integration and more for a mid-mid-life upgrade.

3. CAMM is a SAM based on an AIM-132. Why would you use that and not an AIM-132?

4. You are marshalling aircraft around the sky with, if you haven't 100% confirmed it, the possibility of a Type 003 or 004 around. Any of that needs AEW&C. Even in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria - where most of the time there hasn't been a red air force - AEW&C is essential. You want to conduct a precision strike on a modern threat (that's facing forces that use E-2's, E-3s and E-7s) you need that coordination. Sure, an E-7 may be overkill. So it's an E-2. They still cost 2 - 3x a fighter, so if you can afford 28 fighters it's actually 22 + 3 AEW&C.

5. The Red force (and now it's not just China, but anything) will be expecting to go to war against F-35s. You have to match that. That's what their defences are planned to defeat.

6. What are you using to target the ships? You need some form of over-the-horizon solution for your second-hand aircraft - so what sits there being risked? It could be US or similar satellites, but if it's RNZDF then it's a P-8. And that'll die. How does the targeting aircraft remain within line of sight but outside SAM range? You can't just lob missiles over the horizon without some targeting capability.

7. You seriously under-estimate the problems faced in conducting a strike against a prepared SAG of multiple ships. Again, these are ships designed to defeat a US CVNBG attack - a force that has more strike aircraft than your 28 RNZAF fighters.

8. Beyond AEW&C you are still missing enablers, likely AAR (low altitude is going to chew that fuel), search and rescue and EW support.

9 The attack you describe does not align with how the fast-jet drivers I work with have described a maritime strike.

The first priority of any countries of any countries armed forces is to protect that countries sovereignty and the freedom of its citizens and not just to be there to gain brownie points. that is a secondary consideration that you do when you can achieve the main task. The NZ defence force is not an adjunct To the ADF. As for submarines while they are a grave threat to our comunications and I certainly would like more P 8's they are not a threat to our sovereignty.
I repeat our first priority must be the preservation of our freedom before we go after brownie points and while cooperation should where practical be encouraged we are not an adjunct to Australia and neither are our armed forces.
This misses the point of a Defence Force greatly, and highlights a kit-approach to problems misses a lot.

1. A nation's sovereignty does not stop at the border. This is the key to the Defence of Australia crap of the 1990s - if you have to go offshore you can't do that if you think otherwise. NZ has sovereign interests in a multitude of places off the small islands, including the Persian Gulf, Singapore and it's surrounds, Antarctica, the Pacific Islands, Australia and the Pacific out to Hawaii. The NZDF cannot defend that.

2. The way it can is through making alliances (and, in DFAT friendly language, diplomatic agreements). To this end, you will become an adjunct force to Australia and the US. Which is a good thing! You support US operations in Iraq and Australian operations in Timor Leste (like you have) you prove your value to them and when the time comes it's not NZ defending the area in point 1 - it's the US, Australia and NZ. Which makes life easier!

3. This will demand forces that can work together (so probably not second hand fighter aircraft) and sometimes going to places you'd rather not in support of your allies. Of course you won't agree on everything - but as it is NZ and Australia have an excellent reputation among senior US military peeps because we call them when they need it. Some have even suggested that we exceed the Brit capability in this over the past decade or so.

4. Like it or not, you will almost always fight beside us. We cover your western flank and northern flank, we share enormous amounts of culture and history and have similar needs and goals. I've sat in meetings where (at a high level) we have discussed, with NZDF people, the idea of giving up major chunks of NZDF capability (think entire Corps or fleets) because if the NZDF ever needs those capabilities they'll be alongside Australian's who will have brought them.

5. This doesn't even touch on the other, non-military national security issues that you've missed that see NZ publicly sharing and conforming to other nations.

6. None of this should be shameful or upsetting. The the biggest Army's of the world couldn't stop catastrophic invasions in 1940 or 1941, and their tactical and strategic situations were a magnitude easier than NZ's. France and the USSR needed allies to win their nation back. Furthermore, despite what (4) may sound like - Australia does this! We can't defence our area's of interest, we never have been able to. So we look to a strong ally with shared values - the UK and then the US. The ADF cannot defend Australia's interests alone. But with help, it can. NZ is the same.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
This paragraph highlights the limitations with kit-focused issues as opposed to looking a the wider issues on the Red and Blue sides.

First the Red mission and intent needs to be considered, as well as their capabilities. NZ can't really be invaded nor struck (as you say, a 2200 km moat). Which makes it very valuable for a Pacific campaign, just as it was in the 1940s. For a FVEY or similar operation this has huge advantages, especially for operations in the SCS or south west Pacific. Which makes it a valuable target if you can effect it - there's likely to be a bunch of third line enablers there that will rapidly impact Blue forces. NZ's critical vulnerability though, is it's an island. It can't survive without imports and it cannot sustain such Blue forces. And it's unlikely you have weeks of supply. It may be worth trying to undermine the FVEY alliance - especially if combined with anti-nuke information operations or similar. Even better - you cut the SLOC to the west and you impact Australia too - stuff from the US has to fight through or go twice as far. At that range, you can't really use aircraft - so submarines and ships are it. Their advantage is they don't even have to come within range of NZ to blockade.

By not considering the likely threat (surface vessels, not bombers), you've under estimated the actual problem. Bombers come to you simplifying the targeting problem - ships don't.



This is borderline naive.

1. The threat is building against stealth aircraft and munitions. Its ships and kit are designed to defeat F/A-18E and F-35C. Plus the munitions they bring. Second hand aircraft won't cut it.

2. Second hand aircraft cost more. Sure, the upfront costs are less, but you'll pay more for maintenance, more for integration and more for a mid-mid-life upgrade.

3. CAMM is a SAM based on an AIM-132. Why would you use that and not an AIM-132?

4. You are marshalling aircraft around the sky with, if you haven't 100% confirmed it, the possibility of a Type 003 or 004 around. Any of that needs AEW&C. Even in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria - where most of the time there hasn't been a red air force - AEW&C is essential. You want to conduct a precision strike on a modern threat (that's facing forces that use E-2's, E-3s and E-7s) you need that coordination. Sure, an E-7 may be overkill. So it's an E-2. They still cost 2 - 3x a fighter, so if you can afford 28 fighters it's actually 22 + 3 AEW&C.

5. The Red force (and now it's not just China, but anything) will be expecting to go to war against F-35s. You have to match that. That's what their defences are planned to defeat.

6. What are you using to target the ships? You need some form of over-the-horizon solution for your second-hand aircraft - so what sits there being risked? It could be US or similar satellites, but if it's RNZDF then it's a P-8. And that'll die. How does the targeting aircraft remain within line of sight but outside SAM range? You can't just lob missiles over the horizon without some targeting capability.

7. You seriously under-estimate the problems faced in conducting a strike against a prepared SAG of multiple ships. Again, these are ships designed to defeat a US CVNBG attack - a force that has more strike aircraft than your 28 RNZAF fighters.

8. Beyond AEW&C you are still missing enablers, likely AAR (low altitude is going to chew that fuel), search and rescue and EW support.

9 The attack you describe does not align with how the fast-jet drivers I work with have described a maritime strike.



This misses the point of a Defence Force greatly, and highlights a kit-approach to problems misses a lot.

1. A nation's sovereignty does not stop at the border. This is the key to the Defence of Australia crap of the 1990s - if you have to go offshore you can't do that if you think otherwise. NZ has sovereign interests in a multitude of places off the small islands, including the Persian Gulf, Singapore and it's surrounds, Antarctica, the Pacific Islands, Australia and the Pacific out to Hawaii. The NZDF cannot defend that.

2. The way it can is through making alliances (and, in DFAT friendly language, diplomatic agreements). To this end, you will become an adjunct force to Australia and the US. Which is a good thing! You support US operations in Iraq and Australian operations in Timor Leste (like you have) you prove your value to them and when the time comes it's not NZ defending the area in point 1 - it's the US, Australia and NZ. Which makes life easier!

3. This will demand forces that can work together (so probably not second hand fighter aircraft) and sometimes going to places you'd rather not in support of your allies. Of course you won't agree on everything - but as it is NZ and Australia have an excellent reputation among senior US military peeps because we call them when they need it. Some have even suggested that we exceed the Brit capability in this over the past decade or so.

4. Like it or not, you will almost always fight beside us. We cover your western flank and northern flank, we share enormous amounts of culture and history and have similar needs and goals. I've sat in meetings where (at a high level) we have discussed, with NZDF people, the idea of giving up major chunks of NZDF capability (think entire Corps or fleets) because if the NZDF ever needs those capabilities they'll be alongside Australian's who will have brought them.

5. This doesn't even touch on the other, non-military national security issues that you've missed that see NZ publicly sharing and conforming to other nations.

6. None of this should be shameful or upsetting. The the biggest Army's of the world couldn't stop catastrophic invasions in 1940 or 1941, and their tactical and strategic situations were a magnitude easier than NZ's. France and the USSR needed allies to win their nation back. Furthermore, despite what (4) may sound like - Australia does this! We can't defence our area's of interest, we never have been able to. So we look to a strong ally with shared values - the UK and then the US. The ADF cannot defend Australia's interests alone. But with help, it can. NZ is the same.

Great write-up... a couple of notes:
(1) Agreed invasion is very difficult, but strike is not... economic blockade would come literally overnight if even just a handful of cruise missiles were lobbed our way to hit a few key strategic targets, with a concurrent verbal threat of more if we did not shut-up and sit back down! The vision of a task force needing to be repelled by NZ land-based a/c is very unlikely... it would take only a single sub that needs come nowhere near NZ itself and will throughout the action remain way out of the effective range of any land-based a/c type in the region, including those of our big-hitting allies. So yes as you say, NZ can never expect to actually defend itself... it's all about alliances, so focusing on potential platforms to do so is indeed superfluous.

(2) Meetings discussing '...the idea of giving up major chunks of NZDF capability...', crikey sounds like a politicians & Treasury dream, careful what you wish for! There's stuff-all capabilities that fall under that banner so it's fairly obvious what they key one would be... the Green's would love that! What NZ needs to do is work it's DCP to determine with key alliance partners Aus & US what it is that NZ could bring to the party that would actually add value and not be more a hindrance than a help. I'd like to think that is what has gone, in spades, into last year's DCP with the big surprise being, eventually, 2 fairly capable amphib vessels; plus it has the P8 & the fore-shadowed maritime satellite & UAV capabilities; and SH-2G replacement. As I've previously mentioned, make the DCP the first priority, complete it then make the next priority giving that plan more depth, particularly with a bigger air transport fleet.... then maybe we can start considering AT6 for COIN etc... if Allies suggest that is worth pursuing.

<edit> After thought... yes I am well aware that the green-shoots started appearing well before the last DCP.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
Great write-up... a couple of notes:
(1) Agreed invasion is very difficult, but strike is not... economic blockade would come literally overnight if even just a handful of cruise missiles were lobbed our way to hit a few key strategic targets, with a concurrent verbal threat of more if we did not shut-up and sit back down! The vision of a task force needing to be repelled by NZ land-based a/c is very unlikely... it would take only a single sub that needs come nowhere near NZ itself and will throughout the action remain way out of the effective range of any land-based a/c type in the region, including those of our big-hitting allies. So yes as you say, NZ can never expect to actually defend itself... it's all about alliances, so focusing on potential platforms to do so is indeed superfluous.

(2) Meetings discussing '...the idea of giving up major chunks of NZDF capability...', crikey sounds like a politicians & Treasury dream, careful what you wish for! There's stuff-all capabilities that fall under that banner so it's fairly obvious what they key one would be... the Green's would love that! What NZ needs to do is work it's DCP to determine with key alliance partners Aus & US what it is that NZ could bring to the party that would actually add value and not be more a hindrance than a help. I'd like to think that is what has gone, in spades, into last year's DCP with the big surprise being, eventually, 2 fairly capable amphib vessels; plus it has the P8 & the fore-shadowed maritime satellite & UAV capabilities; and SH-2G replacement. As I've previously mentioned, make the DCP the first priority, complete it then make the next priority giving that plan more depth, particularly with a bigger air transport fleet.... then maybe we can start considering AT6 for COIN etc... if Allies suggest that is worth pursuing.

<edit> After thought... yes I am well aware that the green-shoots started appearing well before the last DCP.
Twenty years ago NZ had an offer of 28 F-16s at a bargain price.
An old fiend of mine who was in the NZ Air Force at the time was always professionally guarded in saying too much about defence stuff, but I do recall the comment it was the" deal of the century." Eyes rolled.
Defence dollars were scarce and other priorities, both budgetary and political ended the deal.
Often wondered the "what if "had it gone through.
Certainly had some chats in general terms as to the pro's and con's of a NZ Fast Air.
One attribute was not so much some high end take on the big guy confrontation but rather the ability to have a modest show of force.
The ability to send a pair of aircraft at distance.
The grey area of political brinkmanship when hopefully shots are nor fired, but your flag is shown.
Japan is constantly doing this against both Chinese and Russian Air incursions as her outlying island sovereignty is tested.
At this stage NZ does not have this challenge and hopeful never will.

So in the 2020's whats the best bang for your buck if your a modest sized nation of 5 million in the south Pacific.
Bring back Fast Air or invest in other assets.

I'd suggest with the existing budget, Fast Air is but a dream.


Regards S
 
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