Royal New Zealand Air Force

[regstrup]

As a non NZ, but a Danish national, I would say, that a 1-to-1 replacement is a good deal, when you see on the history of the NZ defence policy. The number should be sufficient for a nation of the size of NZ.

Instead of buying more than 5 new Hercules, it would be a better idea to increase the number of the planned P-8, which is only 4 planes.

 

[Gibbo]

As a non NZ, but a Danish national, I would say, that a 1-to-1 replacement is a good deal, when you see on the history of the NZ defence policy. The number should be sufficient for a nation of the size of NZ.

Instead of buying more than 5 new Hercules, it would be a better idea to increase the number of the planned P-8, which is only 4 planes.

The only thing is the DCP contained a plan to purchase a planned 'complimentary capability' to provide a 2nd tier,MPA for EEZ SAR & MPA (almost certainly unarmed) thus freeing up the P8 for the sharp-end. That therefore pretty much sorts the P8 numbers. The C130H fleet has struggled ever since the 10 x Andover fleet (ie: twin turbo-prop transport) was retired in the 1990's and with only 2 x B757 to lighten the load, that means aside from Naval transport assets (which fill a different niche) it all falls upon the C-130 to do 'it all'.

It's not just dictated by our size, be it population or geographic area (larger than the UK) we need to factor in we have the 11th largest EEZ on the planet and that whenever we deploy anything it's generally over vast distances - esp. Antarctica. This is what I guess you'd refer to the 'dynamic' of the requirement... so I'd say 5 isn't enough. It might be that a smaller Andover sized replacement might be the answer, but another 3 C-130J-30 would mean achieving it with the economy of scale of not requiring another fleet type..

 

[regstrup]

The only thing is the DCP contained a plan to purchase a planned 'complimentary capability' to provide a 2nd tier,MPA for EEZ SAR & MPA (almost certainly unarmed) thus freeing up the P8 for the sharp-end. That therefore pretty much sorts the P8 numbers. The C130H fleet has struggled ever since the 10 x Andover fleet (ie: twin turbo-prop transport) was retired in the 1990's and with only 2 x B757 to lighten the load, that means aside from Naval transport assets (which fill a different niche) it all falls upon the C-130 to do 'it all'.

It's not just dictated by our size, be it population or geographic area (larger than the UK) we need to factor in we have the 11th largest EEZ on the planet and that whenever we deploy anything it's generally over vast distances - esp. Antarctica. This is what I guess you'd refer to the 'dynamic' of the requirement... so I'd say 5 isn't enough. It might be that a smaller Andover sized replacement might be the answer, but another 3 C-130J-30 would mean achieving it with the economy of scale of not requiring another fleet type..

You have a valid point and I understand, why you would want to have more Hercules, but 4 P-8 is just not enough to have operational planes available in the tasks, they have to do.

I don't think, that a 2nd tier MPA can make up for the lack of numbers, since the two types of planes will be operating in different zones of the NZ EEZ.

More planes is better and I still believe, that the NZ will have more use for extra P-8 than than more than 5 Hercules.

 

[ngatimozart]

You have a valid point and I understand, why you would want to have more Hercules, but 4 P-8 is just not enough to have operational planes available in the tasks, they have to do.

I don't think, that a 2nd tier MPA can make up for the lack of numbers, since the two types of planes will be operating in different zones of the NZ EEZ.

More planes is better and I still believe, that the NZ will have more use for extra P-8 than than more than 5 Hercules.

I suggest that you have a look at a map and then decide whether or not more P-8s could fill in for the less number of C-130s. It's somewhat difficult to undertake military / HADR taskings that require a C-130 with a P-8, or move cargo to Antarctica in a P-8. The crux of the matter is underfunding by the government and in an ideal world we would've had probably 6- 8 P-8A and 8 C-130J-30 along with 2-3 C-17A. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world, and we have governments who are loath to spend money of defence. You really should read back through this thread and the NZDF thread to gain a good understanding of the issues etc.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Ten Andovers and five Hercules along with two B727s all in service concurrently had to have provided significant capability to the GOTD and the NZDF. There is no way that the five Hercules could have taken over all the taskings that fifteen aircraft once did. Either the work load was contracted out or didnt happen. I believe from reading here and elsewhere that taskings didnt happen. So much efficiency and good lost due to penny pinching.

Lets hope that additional funds can be found for more air frames. At this point I believe it is almost impossible to think that the government will stump up for additional C130J30 or another type such as the C295W but one can hope. Plus it gives us more to discuss.

 

[Rangitoto]

Ten Andovers and five Hercules along with two B727s all in service concurrently had to have provided significant capability to the GOTD and the NZDF. There is no way that the five Hercules could have taken over all the taskings that fifteen aircraft once did.

You need to be careful with those numbers. Two Andovers were VIP only and not all Andovers were kept operational at the same time due to the difficulty of keeping them serviceable.

Also, the Andover tasks were taken over by the B200s (now 350s), NH90s and C-130s. Some of the Andover and C-130 tasks have actually been taken over by motor transport. AF cadets used to get a ride to the West Melton gun ranges in a Herc. Last I heard it's now by road.

Here's a pic of the Andover replacement. A lot quieter and more comfortable to ride in and only slightly slower:

 

[MrConservative]

The SeaGuardian is a SkyGuardian variant and on 26th March 2019, Belgium received DSCA approval for the acquisition of 4 MQ-9B SkyGuardian UAV and related equipment for an estimated cost of US$600 million. That includes 2 Fixed Certifiable Ground Control Stations. So if we were to acquire 4 then possibly another US$100 million for the maritime surveillance radars and AIS. That's just a guesstimate.

Though the SkyGuardian deal for Belgium did include a specific and expensive ISTAR sensor payload and the support of that, which most certainly won't be sought by the RNZAF who would probably seek 3-4 airframes plus a certifiable fixed ground and mobile ground station. There are also ten Belgium based companies directly involved with the GA-ASI deal which does murk things up a tad as well.

I consider a potential RNZAF SeaGuardian package will be more closer to the USD$339m (NZD$530) MQ-9 Block V offer to the Netherlands, which includes the Lynx Multimode 360° Maritime Surface Search Radar and AIS. The range extended Guardian variant in the vanilla airframe sense differs in that the wingspan is 12 foot wider and uses more structural composites.

http://www.ga-asi.com/Websites/gaas..._systems/pdf/SeaGuardian_DataSheet_111418.pdf

There is the opportunity for the RNZAF to join into the Team Reaper Australia package as they have down-selected the MQ-9B for Project Air 7003.

 

[ngatimozart]

Ten Andovers and five Hercules along with two B727s all in service concurrently had to have provided significant capability to the GOTD and the NZDF. There is no way that the five Hercules could have taken over all the taskings that fifteen aircraft once did. Either the work load was contracted out or didnt happen. I believe from reading here and elsewhere that taskings didnt happen. So much efficiency and good lost due to penny pinching.

Lets hope that additional funds can be found for more air frames. At this point I believe it is almost impossible to think that the government will stump up for additional C130J30 or another type such as the C295W but one can hope. Plus it gives us more to discuss.

You need to be careful with those numbers. Only a few Andovers were kept operational at any one time due to the difficulty of keeping them serviceable. Also, the Andover tasks have been taken over by the KA350s, NH90s and C-130s. Some of the Andover and C-130 tasks have actually been taken over by motor transport. AF cadets used to get a ride to the West Melton gun ranges in a Herc. Last I heard it's now by road.

@Novascotiaboy as us Kiwi Mods etc., keep repeating, twin engine airlifters have been and are off the menu, and we are really getting somewhat grumpy at repeating ourselves ad nauseam. You have been told the reasons.

The Andovers did a job but were expensive to operate. They, like the 2nd hand ex RN frigates, were a political acquisition with the then PM Muldoon making the decision whether the services wanted them or not. In the case of HMNZS Southland, the RNZN did all it could to avoid taking it. It didn't succeed. Muldoon was a great believer that if it was pommy it must be excellent. He volunteered to go to war against Argentina alongside the poms in 1982. He bought FV-101 Scorpion tanks for the army. It didn't help that they had petrol engines and would've brewed up quickly when hit, just like the Sherman tanks did in WW2.

I'd be quite happy for a mix of C130J and C130J-30. If the govt funded another 3 why not make them the straight C130J? We don't need all of our Js to be the J-30 variant so some of the normal Js would make sense.

 

[Rangitoto]

@Novascotiaboy
I'd be quite happy for a mix of C130J and C130J-30. If the govt funded another 3 why not make them the straight C130J? We don't need all of our Js to be the J-30 variant so some of the normal Js would make sense.

Just FYI, I don't think LM offers the non-stretched cargo version anymore. This lists the new acquisition versions available:
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/cont...80389_C-130Brochure_NewPurchase_Final_Web.pdf

 

[MrConservative]

Just FYI, I don't think LM offers the non-stretched cargo version anymore. This lists the new acquisition versions available:
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/cont...80389_C-130Brochure_NewPurchase_Final_Web.pdf

The disclaimer at the end reads:

Information contained in this publication is for reference purposes only and does not necessarily reflect the latest aircraft model(s) or configuration(s).

LM will still take orders for a standard C-130J if that is what an air force wanted.

 

[t68]

@NG

Wouldn’t it makes sence for such a small fleet that they also be the stretched version, not really much point in haveing a mixed fleet of the same aircraft if using the 30 for an op and it goes down US and the next cab avalible has reduced cargo and some kit gets left behind.

Even tho I like what the Spartan brings to the table for the RAAF I don’t think they would be total useless to the RNZAF but understand when fighting for funds within a small fleet Spartan doesn’t make sense

 

[regstrup]

I suggest that you have a look at a map and then decide whether or not more P-8s could fill in for the less number of C-130s. It's somewhat difficult to undertake military / HADR taskings that require a C-130 with a P-8, or move cargo to Antarctica in a P-8. The crux of the matter is underfunding by the government and in an ideal world we would've had probably 6- 8 P-8A and 8 C-130J-30 along with 2-3 C-17A. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world, and we have governments who are loath to spend money of defence. You really should read back through this thread and the NZDF thread to gain a good understanding of the issues etc.

I have followed the NZ Defence treads for many years, because I have an interest for smalle defence forces and how they have to be very carefull with defence procurements and how to utilize the ressources they have in the best possible ways to solve the tasks, they have to do. So I feel, I have a very good insight in the challenges and task the NZ Defence face.

Coming from a small country myself with a huge EEZ where Denmark is not the biggest part, but in the North Atlantic around the Faroe Island and the sparsely populated island of Greenland, I have a good idea about the challenges, that the small countries with huge EEZ face with patrolling, supplying and defending them.

So I totally agree, that NZ should have more Navy ships, transport and patrol airplanes, than you have. But as you also say, thats just not the reality of the current political climate in NZ (and in my own country for that matter). In comparison Denmark have a transport fleet of 4 C-130J-30 and 4 Bombardier Challenger CL-604 for mostly patrol in the North Atlantic. With those aircraft they have to support NATO and foreign deployment plus supplying the military outposts in North East Greenland. RDAF is using all it ressources to the limit to for fill all those tasks, so with 5 new C-130, I would say, that NZ is on the right path about numbers in that category.

Where I see the problem for NZ is in patrolling the EEZ, when it comes to foreign military presence, where NZ in my opinion need more military patrol planes like the P-8 to been able to properly patrol the EEZ and detect and monitor any foreign Navy ships, that is not coming from allied or friendly nations.

 

[Gibbo]

RNZAF wants them pimped out, that’s for sure...

New Zealand – C-130J Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

new_zealand_19-69.pdf
Media/Public Contact:
[email protected]
Transmittal No:
19-69
WASHINGTON, November 20, 2019 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to New Zealand of five (5) C-130J aircraft and related equipment for an estimated cost of $1.4 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

The Government of New Zealand has requested to buy five (5) C-130J aircraft; twenty-four (24) Rolls Royce AE-2100D3 turboprop engines (20 installed, 4 spares); fifteen (15) Embedded Global Positioning System (GPS)/Inertial Navigation Systems (INS) (EGIs) with GPS security devices, airborne (10 installed, 5 spares); eight (8) Multi-Information Distribution System (MIDS)/Link-16 Low Video Terminal (LVT)-BU2 (5 installed, 3 spares); thirteen (13) AN/AAQ-24(V)N LAIRCM (Large Aircraft Infrared Countermeasures) System Processor Replacement (LSPR) (10 installed, 3 spares); and nineteen (19) Guardian Laser Transmitter Assembly for LAIRCM (15 installed, 4 spares). Also included are eight (8) AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning System (MWS); eight (8) AN/APN-241 Low Power Color Radar; eight (8) AN/ALR-56M Missile Warning System Receiver; fifteen (15) AN/ALE-47 Countermeasures Dispensing System; six (6) MX-20HD Electro-Optical/Infrared Imaging System; forty-four (44) Missile Warning Sensor, LAIRCM; Control Interface Unit Replacement, LAIRCM; classified memory cards, LAIRCM; Low Volume Terminal Cryptographic Modules KIV-55; AN/ARC-210 RT-1990A(C) Radio; AN/ARC- 164(V) RT-1518 Radio; AN/ARC-153 Tactical Air Navigation; AN/ARN-147 VHF Receiver; AN/ARC-190 HF Radio; AN/ARC-222 VHF Radio w/SINCGARS; Classified Tactical Manuals; Cartridge Activated Devices/Propellant Activated Devices; M206 Flares; MJU-64/B Decoy; BBU-35A/B Impulse Carts; Joint Mission Planning System; Classified Computer Identification Numbers; Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated value is $1.4 billion.

This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a major ally that is a force for political stability, and economic progress in the Asia-Pacific region. The proposed sale will improve New Zealand's capability to meet current and future threats by enhancing its current airlift capability.

This proposed sale will provide the capability to support national, United Nations, and other coalition operations. This purchase also includes sensors and performance improvements that will assist New Zealand during extensive maritime surveillance and reconnaissance as well as improve its search and rescue capability. Additionally, the extra cargo capacity and aircraft performance will greatly increase New Zealand's Antarctic mission capabilities while simultaneously increasing safety margins. New Zealand currently operates the C-l30H aircraft and will have no difficulty absorbing this equipment and support into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractor will be Lockheed Martin, Ft Worth, TX. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

Implementation of this sale will require the assignment of up to three U.S. contractor representatives to New Zealand.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, [email protected].

Not seeing any reference to simulator... does mention training equipment but I dare say that's a far cry from a sim. I hope they do get 1 as that can make a quite a difference to the pressure on a small fleet. They're doing that for the P8... perhaps like the NH-90 they'll order one separately later.

 

[MrConservative]

Not seeing any reference to simulator... does mention training equipment but I dare say that's a far cry from a sim. I hope they do get 1 as that can make a quite a difference to the pressure on a small fleet. They're doing that for the P8... perhaps like the NH-90 they'll order one separately later.

I noticed that too but realised that they have introduced LEP simulator and other training aids like FMTS, PTTS. One of the many attractions of the C-130J in that much of the support and training capability of the LEP with software and cockpit facia upgrades translates into the J model. I assume that this will be the case.

 

[MrConservative]

Where I see the problem for NZ is in patrolling the EEZ, when it comes to foreign military presence, where NZ in my opinion need more military patrol planes like the P-8 to been able to properly patrol the EEZ and detect and monitor any foreign Navy ships, that is not coming from allied or friendly nations.

We are not getting anymore P-8's.

However, there are a number of RNZAF projects outlined in the DCP and in current acquisition projects such as the FASC and FAMC that are addressing further capacity in the maritime domain. For example the Enhanced Maritime Air Surveillance capability for 2023 which has up to $300m to $600m funding band, the Maritime Satellite Surveillance capability for 2025. Longer term there is further WGS capacity plan and a long range RPAS capability. Note also the tactical FAMC project component which has delivered the C-130J has additional ISR and SAR capabilities that were identified as essentials and desirables per the projects originating RFI to industry. I expect that the solution for the strategic component of the FAMC will also include some complementary or secondary capabilities, as also outlined as essentials and desirables per that projects originating RFI to industry, to be included. The likely solutions being either A330 or B767 based have a number of optional OEM supplied or supported systems that can can assist in widening the RNZAF in the maritime domain. There is also the two KA-350's of the Air Crew Training Capability that are fitted with an electro-optic and infra-red camera and a single array multi-mode surveillance radar, well capable of providing short range inner EEZ patrolling. In other words there is a program of work using a breadth of solutions from the constabulary to high end warfare contributions over the years ahead.

 

[ASSAIL]

We are not getting anymore P-8's.

However, there are a number of RNZAF projects outlined in the DCP and in current acquisition projects such as the FASC and FAMC that are addressing further capacity in the maritime domain. For example the Enhanced Maritime Air Surveillance capability for 2023 which has up to $300m to $600m funding band, the Maritime Satellite Surveillance capability for 2025. Longer term there is further WGS capacity plan and a long range RPAS capability. Note also the tactical FAMC project component which has delivered the C-130J has additional ISR and SAR capabilities that were identified as essentials and desirables per the projects originating RFI to industry. I expect that the solution for the strategic component of the FAMC will also include some complementary or secondary capabilities, as also outlined as essentials and desirables per that projects originating RFI to industry, to be included. The likely solutions being either A330 or B767 based have a number of optional OEM supplied or supported systems that can can assist in widening the RNZAF in the maritime domain. There is also the two KA-350's of the Air Crew Training Capability that are fitted with an electro-optic and infra-red camera and a single array multi-mode surveillance radar, well capable of providing short range inner EEZ patrolling. In other words there is a program of work using a breadth of solutions from the constabulary to high end warfare contributions over the years ahead.

If NZ is considering either an A330 or B767 and are looking to increase the RNZAF’s influence, would it not be beneficial to make either of these an MRRT version?
In this way you could make a more varied (transport and ASW/ISR notwithstanding) contribution to major exercises in the Indo Pacific and also provide VIP and other transport options.

 

[MrConservative]

If NZ is considering either an A330 or B767 and are looking to increase the RNZAF’s influence, would it not be beneficial to make either of these an MRRT version?
In this way you could make a more varied (transport and ASW/ISR notwithstanding) contribution to major exercises in the Indo Pacific and also provide VIP and other transport options.

Yes it would.

In the originating FAMC RFI an A2A capability was listed as a desirable. With up to $1 Billion earmarked for this project the money is there.

 

[Rangitoto]

Yes it would.

In the originating FAMC RFI an A2A capability was listed as a desirable. With up to $1 Billion earmarked for this project the money is there.

I thought the strategic transport budget was $300 - 600 million.

 

[ngatimozart]

@NG

Wouldn’t it makes sence for such a small fleet that they also be the stretched version, not really much point in haveing a mixed fleet of the same aircraft if using the 30 for an op and it goes down US and the next cab avalible has reduced cargo and some kit gets left behind.

Even tho I like what the Spartan brings to the table for the RAAF I don’t think they would be total useless to the RNZAF but understand when fighting for funds within a small fleet Spartan doesn’t make sense

The RAAF use the Spartan around Australia quite easily because it can access areas at small to medium distances with relatively good payloads, whereas we have to deploy over the deep blue mostly, and as such it doesn't make for good payload value. We found that with the C-47 Dakota, B170 Bristol Frightener, and HS780 Andover. Even if the funds were made available for such we'd be better off acquiring more NH90 and some CH-47. Do you wonder why the RAF never replaced the Andover with something similar like the C-27J Spartan or the C235 / 295? I believe that they, nor the USAF, didn't see the need for such a capability.

 

[ngatimozart]

I thought the strategic transport budget was $300 - 600 million.

It is, but it is my view that a couple of KC30 (A330MRTT) / KC46 could be acquired. My preference would be for the KC30 because the RAAF are going to be doing things with theirs that the USAF are only dreaming about with their KC-46, and it would be a game changer for us, and a force multiplier increasing the number of KCs in the region to 9. The budget would have to be increased by about 50%, but it'd be worth it. If they specified the A330 freighter floor and a cargo door, we could use it the same way we use the B757.