Here you go.
New Zealand has no boats to send to Strait of Hormuz: Defence Minister RonMark
For the media headlines as reported - Boats are what you play with in the bath. Ships or vessels are what you go to sea in.
Here you go.
New Zealand has no boats to send to Strait of Hormuz: Defence Minister RonMark
For the media headlines as reported - Boats are what you play with in the bath. Ships or vessels are what you go to sea in.
National had three successive terms from 2008 to 2017. Labour three successive terms before that, Labour succeeded in deleting our air force strike wing and neutralising our navys defence and support (reducing to two frigates) in their terms of office. National purchased some Texan trainers (needed) and talked about or deferred the other necessary replacement requirements. Gerry "Blew and snorted a bit" over the C17 offer before retiring to his padded recliner (Probably within Bellamys).Thanks, really just states what we already figured. A bit rich former Defence Minister Gerry Brownlee of National getting stuck into Labour for this, when they weren't willing to remedy this during their two terms in office
Exactly, whoever is in power by the time kit comes online is sometimes irrelevant as due to long planning, lead ins and aqquisitions they could just (by luck) be the ones to "complete" the deal. This has as you say gone both ways in terms of funding and cutting and who knows next election could prove different again but does not mean that particular govt laid the groundwork but just happened to be wearing the hat when the gear showed up.National had three successive terms from 2008 to 2017. Labour three successive terms before that, Labour succeeded in deleting our air force strike wing and neutralising our navys defence and support (reducing to two frigates) in their terms of office. National purchased some Texan trainers (needed) and talked about or deferred the other necessary replacement requirements. Gerry "Blew and snorted a bit" over the C17 offer before retiring to his padded recliner (Probably within Bellamys).
Good day folksInstead of the half billion dollars spent on upgrading the ANZACs the money would have been better spent on three new hulls and the funds recovered from the sale of the two ships could have been used to defer costs further. Look at the Dutch as an example. Since the Leanders they have built and owned frigates for a 20 year period and then on sold them to less advantaged navies where these ships continue to serve for decades more. This way the Dutch always have top end vessels and systems and dont waste their money maintaining old hulls and systems.
I am sure the Phillipines would have been a prime market for the two ANZACs.
In general context a ship such as Absalon would serve NZ well. Able to fight if required it would be out classed by long range ssm like most vessels. But a vessel designed and built to civilian naval design standards with military specs for specific portions of the design can be a cost effective and highly capable vessel. We have had this discussion previously and we dont need to rave on.
Bottom line is three frigates today would have given one in NZ waters or at least available for service. With an OPV replacement likely to be in the water before the frigate replacement I would hope that consideration be give to a more capable ship. Even the Dutch Holland class OPV with its 3 inch gun and full aviation capabilities would have offered a significant contribution via its imast sensor package. Thru the replacement of the 30 mm with a CIWS such as Millenium Gun this type could safely operate in an area such as the gulf. With the addition of Sea Ceptor it would be quite potent at protecting itself.
With a compliment of 54 the crew requirement is only a dozen more than the current OPVs. Based on published figures the Hollands were $40 million more than the OPVs at $150 million a piece.
Having so few vessels makes it more important to have a tiered approach to design and capabilities of the next level of ship. From frigate to corvette to OPV to patrol boat there should be some fill in capacity but in NZ context its the capabilities of a GP frigate to six vessels each with no more than a 25mm cannon.
Maybe the next time the pollies will get it right.
Prof. Ayson is very astute and good at what he does. He has posited a point that does need to be discussed and stating that "... he needs his head read to even suggest not replacing the frigates ... " for what is a possibility given the track record of NZ govts, pollies and Treasury, is not necessary or courteous, especially when you don't supply a rational argument to counter his argument. Don't shoot the messenger, just because they don't agree with your world view.A couple of recent navy related articles from over on Incline:
Where are the Frigates?
Keeping the Lights On: The Need for New Zealand to Increase Its Maritime Capability
I think Robert Ayson needs his head read to even suggest not replacing the frigates (even if he is being "rhetorical", noting that it isn't the first time he has beaten that drum). He could well be right in that it is likely that the money will run out before the frigates come up for renewal.
The DCP has outline what the intentions are and the money has basically been allocated now that it is in the DCP. Both major parties have agreed to it and the enhanced sealift vessel with a welldock has been chosen as the best option for the NZDF, for both military and HADR capabilities, in order to meet govts policy objectives. This would have been after the learnings, experience, and knowledge gained with Canterbury.One of the things that disappointed me the most in the 2019 Defence Capability Plan was the outlook for the Navy. Not only were timelines stretched out far too long (e.g. the ANZAC frigates to serve into the 2030s; the Southern Ocean patrol vessel introduction delayed further - it was 2025, now 2027), but there was no mention of a third frigate (blame the Greens I guess). Another thing missing from the DCP, which should be high priority, was getting the NH90s marinised (it would do the most to improve the apparent deficiencies of the Canterbury). I'm also surprised we have yet to hear anything regarding the Air Surveillance Complementary Capability - supposedly to be in service by 2023. If it's anything less than say 4 C295 MPA fitted out to Portuguese VIMAR standard, don't bother! I simply don't believe the RNZAF hype that P-8s will be doing routine SAR missions (not with only 4 aircraft; they can't manage to routinely provide a backup P-3 with 6).
I think the prospect of two LPDs (god forbid LHDs - we couldn't afford the helicopters or the crew!) is a complete pipedream. Ridiculous fantasy fleet stuff. One LPD - possibly (but even that will be difficult to man unless there is a major funding increase & recruitment drive). The Navy is already the smallest force (which, strategically, seems to be at odds with the nation's and the region's geography). To provide backup to a new LPD, I'd be looking at something a lot cheaper, operated in a reserve capacity only (need to knock a few Treasury heads together to get anything that sensible to happen though). Probably a converted breakbulk merchant ship (perhaps even a converted containership) - that could be used in peacetime as a training ship by the Auckland Maritime School & the Navy. As a starting point design-wise, something near to a Charleston class LKA (the last version of a USN Attack Cargo Ship, built late 1960s, retired early 1990s) or a Cape J breakbulk freighter (aka Mariner class) that the Military Sealift Command used to have. Probably would have to be medium-speed diesel (and therefore twin-screwed) these days (for compatibility with naval fuel). To be pulled out of mothballs when we have to deploy a battalion to the Pacific, respond to a major HADR event (say a Wellington earthquake) or replenish at sea a large joint RAN / RNZN task force. Given the state of port facilities in the most likely deployment area, the South Pacific, I would be thinking twice about relying on containerised goods in an amphib operation - hence my preference for breakbulk over RO/RO or a containership.
To my mind, now that the decommisioning dates of the ANZAC class have been extended (no surprise there), a third frigate (the first of a new class) should be built and introduced into service before the ANZACs retire (i.e. pre 2030), followed by two more of the same class as the ANZAC replacements. I would expect this new frigate class to be a low-end ASW type - suitable for merchant ship / amphib convoy escort. I can't see us affording three "cruiser-frigates" (e.g. Type 26, or even the 6000-ton Arrowhead 140). At a guess, I would suggest the following attributes:
- - full-load displacement of 4500 - 5000t (gives more room for growth than the definitely too-small 3600t ANZAC). Maybe 130-140m in length.
- - fitted for, preferably with, a towed array low frequency sonar (doesn't have to be the world's best, it will mainly be for training). Hull-mounted medium frequency sonar fitted.
- - perhaps CODAG propulsion, twin shaft. Probably just one gas turbine (to allow for extra fuel, but giving up a bit of top speed). Maybe a diesel-electric system like the type 23. Not keen on an all-diesel propulsion system (don't need top speed that often, and GT saves space).
- - long cruising range, >6000nm. Maybe 700t fuel capacity.
- - superb sea-keeping (=high freeboard?)
- - either a single 10-ton helicopter, or a 5-6t helo and a simple UAV. Helicopter to carry torpedoes, or lightweight anti-surface missiles. Option for a dipping sonar. Would be happy with the 6t (av fuel ain't going to get cheaper)
- - a relatively simple 3D radar (its not a AAW destroyer)
- - probably a 5" gun forward (guess we are stuck with this calibre). Needs to be suitable for NGS (so 4" or greater).
- - self defence torpedo tubes (got to carry the torps for the helo anyway).
- - a mixed air-defence missile battery. At least ESSM as the first-line missile. Not that fussed about a VLS (seeing as self-defence length Mk41 is no more, and given the modest displacement of the vessel), so I could see even a Mk 29 (which hopefully will be around forever as it is preferred to VLS on US aircraft carriers). 8 missiles ready is probably sufficient (has been for a RNZN ANZAC for the last 20 years!) and it can be reloaded at sea. Backed up by a ship self-defence missile (say 20 Sea-Ceptor or a RAM launcher) and a CIWS (hopefully >20mm, with an anti-surface mode).
- - Several Anti-ship cruise missiles. Mainly just for training. Would be happy with anything box-launched (say Harpoon Blk 2, Exocet MM40 Blk 2 or 3, even the SAAB RBS-15). Minimum of 2 carried in peacetime (like a French Floreal), would prefer 4). Expect these would be increased or replaced pretty quickly if facing a genuine threat.
- - a couple of light cannon (probably remotely operated)
- - Bulk standard ESM, ECM and decoy systems.
- - Crew of 200 or less. Contrary to some recent proposals (crew of 100 in the French FTI for example), I don't think you want to go too small (for damage control mostly).
- - on the wish-list: some way of launching an ASROC torpedo.
On 2 July 2018 IHS Janes reported and other members have noted earlier in the RSN thread and this NZ Navy thread, that the Singapore Navy will retire its Endurance class LPDs after 2020 and replace these with the Joint Multi Mission Ship (JMMS) platform. Raises my hand, again, on the hope of a joint JMMS buy by our navies, in the early 2020s. Tick the box for HADR, a well dock to launch FCUs, ability to transport NH-90 helicopters (and Chinooks for the Australians), along with lean manning for a small navy.This article should be read alongside the two above because it really lays the groundwork so too speak. The Price of New Zealand's Strategy-Force Mismatch
The DCP has outline what the intentions are and the money has basically been allocated now that it is in the DCP. Both major parties have agreed to it and the enhanced sealift vessel with a welldock has been chosen as the best option for the NZDF, for both military and HADR capabilities, in order to meet govts policy objectives. This would have been after the learnings, experience, and knowledge gained with Canterbury.
Frigates. The majority opinion here is that 2 FFH isn't enough and that a 3rd should be acquired sooner rather than later. We all have our wish lists, but your one above speaks more of looking backwards rather than forward when you speak of getting rid of a VLS and using a Mk-29 launcher. However until the denizens who occupy the Beehive get enough of a fright to fill their grundies, nothing will change.
TBH, I think that increasing the army is a mistake for a nation that is a maritime nation and totally dependant upon it's SLOC. This from the latest Navy Today (P.3, Issue 235, Aug 2019):The 'lean manning' aspect is a key consideration, given the severe (though lessening?) difficulties the NZDF has in recruiting and retaining suitable people. Even a population of (now) 5 million can barely generate enough recruits to maintain current strengths, let alone the DCP proposal to increase to a 6,000 strong Army (and hopefully a commensurate Navy). Obvious solution of a significant rise in salaries would conflict with goals for increased capital investment, including in hulls.
Re number of hulls, would buying more second-hand ships - such as the recent Manawanui replacement - be a solution to the capital cost quandary? Chile maintains a significant force of 2nd-hand ships, mostly ex-RN. Could there be possibilities of buying ex-USN LCS hulls in the 2020s, assuming their new Frigate project is funded.
Since we are only purchasing 4 P8's we will probably never have any spares ones to send either.Recent article dated 22 August from Nz Herald qouted astatement from Defence Minister Ron Mark said we have no available P3 or Frigates available to assist in the Straits of Hormuz, regarding the hijacking of foriegn flagged ships by Iran.Evidently that was his reply when approached by Britsh Govt if we could render assistance, Australia was mentioned as being willing to do so. Can anyone post the link?
No way because there's all them luverly minerals, including hopefully hydrocarbons in the NZ Antarctic territory, just waiting to be extracted. In order to fully fund Defence, we just need to start extracting the oil and gas in the Southern Basin just below the South Island. It is thought to have significant hydrocarbon resources possibly on par with the Saudi fields or greater, but it hasn't yet been fully explored and quantified.Now that Denmark has rejected Trump's deal to purchase Greenland, perhaps NZ should offer up its Antarctic territory. The money could be used to properly fund the RNZN and maybe even get back into the fast jet business again. Word of warning, rejection of his offer by female PMs will result in the title "nasty".