Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[Calculus]

Here is an interesting interview with the first RCN AOPV CO that describes pretty well the capabilities of the HDW class, as well as how the RCN intends to use them: Interview with Cdr Corey L.E. Gleason, Commanding Officer of the future HMCS Harry DeWolf

Based on the interview and what we know about this ship it would seem to fit the NZ requirements quite nicely. The only issue would be one of timing, as the Irving shipyard where these are being built will deliver the eighth and final AOPV (actually, 7 and 8 will be variants for the Canadian Coast Guard) in 2022, with the first steel due to be cut on the Canadian T26 variant (CSC) in 2023. The CSC will occupy that yard until well into the 2030s. NZ could purchase the design of course, and have it built elsewhere, but a one-off build, even in the the super-efficient Korean yards, would be riskier and probably more expensive than getting one from Irving. So, while the HDW might seem like a good fit, it may simply not be an option if NZ is looking for an SOPV around 2025.

 

[John Fedup]

No doubt junior would welcome the opportunity to delay spending on T26s so he could build his honey Jacinda a HDW in 2025.

 

[Rob c]

There was a post a while back on a pair of Norwegian OPV's that they were ordering which I thought fitted the NZ requirement very well, but I can't find the reference, could someone help on this matter ?
I am not a hydrodynamics, but I would have thought that a ship such as the HDW would be significantly less economical in fuel usage than a conventional hull.

 

[Calculus]

There was a post a while back on a pair of Norwegian OPV's that they were ordering which I thought fitted the NZ requirement very well, but I can't find the reference, could someone help on this matter ?
I am not a hydrodynamics, but I would have thought that a ship such as the HDW would be significantly less economical in fuel usage than a conventional hull.

@Rob c , I think you are referring to these: https://www.vard.com/newsandmedia/n...r-the-Norwegian-Defence-Materiel-Agency-.aspx

Interesting PP presentation: http://www.sms1835.no/arkiv/2014-08-27 New Coastal Guard Vessels - Status an Plans by Commander Odd Magne Nilsen.pdf

They do appear to be fairly impressive, but the only cost estimate I could find was for the hulls only, at 552 Million (Euro): Norway's new Coast Guard vessels for Arctic waters. I have not found any details on the total project cost, so it is difficult to know how much these vessels will cost with their final fit-out.

 

[alexsa]

Here is an interesting interview with the first RCN AOPV CO that describes pretty well the capabilities of the HDW class, as well as how the RCN intends to use them: Interview with Cdr Corey L.E. Gleason, Commanding Officer of the future HMCS Harry DeWolf

Based on the interview and what we know about this ship it would seem to fit the NZ requirements quite nicely. The only issue would be one of timing, as the Irving shipyard where these are being built will deliver the eighth and final AOPV (actually, 7 and 8 will be variants for the Canadian Coast Guard) in 2022, with the first steel due to be cut on the Canadian T26 variant (CSC) in 2023. The CSC will occupy that yard until well into the 2030s. NZ could purchase the design of course, and have it built elsewhere, but a one-off build, even in the the super-efficient Korean yards, would be riskier and probably more expensive than getting one from Irving. So, while the HDW might seem like a good fit, it may simply not be an option if NZ is looking for an SOPV around 2025.

Just a cautionary note on 'super efficient yards'. Considerable detail is required to build a vessel and it is not a simple matter of transferring a base set of blue prints. Where auto cutting is the norm then the plate set out is required. Same with block scheduling the fit out process. I doubt that a Canadian yard is going to hand this over (and why would they) to a non-associated third party. There may also be an IP cost associated with it. In other words you may have to cvonfigure the build process and reconstructed detailed design plans. This takes time .... and costs.

Korea have sophisticated systems, large facilities and a large dock yard workforce which means they can apply resources to projects hence the speed . However, this is all under a bit of pressure at the moment with rationalisation taking place to save some of these yards. This means they are really not making the money out of building ships that is required to sustain the yards. The fix for this is greater efficiency (amalgamations will give some of this but may also result in a smaller work force) or increased prices. Until recently yards have been trying to build their way out of trouble ..... but with commerical demand still down on 5 years ago this does not appear to be working (hence the Hyundai DSME merger talks).

If they go to the wall (remember Hanjin Marine who were seen as unassailable) then it is all for nothing.

 

[Rob c]

One thing I think we need to keep in mi when looking at the possible options for the southern OPV is the environment it will operate in and what its main tasks will be. When comparing the southern oceith the Canadian north ( stand o be corrected by our Canadian members on this ) they are like chalk and cheese, in operating conditions and it seems to be the only common factor is that they are both cold. The Canadian north is made up of in the west large numbers of Islands and passageways and in the east , open water when there is some is bordered by the canadian mainland and the arctic ice pack. The southern ocean is the longest east/west ocean in the world, with the highest average wind speed of any place on earth. So one area is broken up into a lot of areas and the other is vast and open.
The SOPV has the main function of patrolling the southern ocean fishing grounds which would not involve going into the ice pack as most fishing vessels will not be ice strengthened and it would be very hard to fish commercially when surrounded by ice. The main problems would appear to be dealing with the weather and some ice flows.
The HDW on the other hand is probably dealing with ice on a regular basis and not as heavy seas.
While a HDW could carry out the functions of the SOPV I don't think it is an ideal choice.
My personal view is that we should get a vessel with a W.L.L. greater than 100m a speed range similar to the current OPVs , be able to stay operational in very high sea states, a hanger for 2 helicopters (serviceability can be a problem in extreme conditions) and bigger gun than the current OPVs with a greater 'DON'T F--K with ME presents", possibly surplus RAN 76mm,and ice strengthened to the same as Aotearoa.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Rob C I believe the possibility of an upgunned SOPV is unlikely given MrCs post where he quotes that the vessel will have minimal specialist military capabilities as per an Antarctic treaty requirement. The vessel will also be built to commercial standards.

The HDW will have the same CMS as your frigates. I am unaware of the treaty requirements so I do not know what it entails regarding military capabilities of vessels operating in territorial waters. Maybe the CCGS version of the HDW will be more of a fit for NZ government requirements? Its unlikely that this version will have the CMS 330 system aboard. These being the last vessels off the line could provide a cheaper option plus the ability to tag on just a little earlier than planned. With an election or two in between anything can happen.

 

[ngatimozart]

Rob C I believe the possibility of an upgunned SOPV is unlikely given MrCs post where he quotes that the vessel will have minimal specialist military capabilities as per an Antarctic treaty requirement. The vessel will also be built to commercial standards. I am unaware of the treaty requirements so I do not know what it entails regarding military capabilities of vessels operating in territorial waters.

"1. Antarctica shall be used for peaceful purposes only. There shall be prohibited, inter alia, any measures of a military nature, such as the establishment of military bases and fortifications, the carrying out of military maneuvers, as well as the testing of any type of weapons.

2. The present Treaty shall not prevent the use of military personnel or equipment for scientific research or for any other peaceful purposes."

The first article of the Antarctic Treaty. The full treaty text is at the link. More information / documentation is available from the Secretariat of Antarctic Treaty.

 

[Catalina]

Australia has massive plans

What are the massive plans of Australian in Antarctica please?

 

[Rob c]

Rob C I believe the possibility of an upgunned SOPV is unlikely given MrCs post where he quotes that the vessel will have minimal specialist military capabilities as per an Antarctic treaty requirement. The vessel will also be built to commercial standards.

Yes I agree that this would be unlikely I am just being hopeful but I would certainly not hold my breath on this matter.

. Antarctica shall be used for peaceful purposes only. There shall be prohibited, inter alia, any measures of a military nature, such as the establishment of military bases and fortifications, the carrying out of military maneuvers, as well as the testing of any type of weapons.

I don't see this a problem for a patrol vessel as it is not actually on antarctica and I remember photos back in the sixties of American icebreakers in Littleton prior to going south to antarctica in the summer season armed with twin 5' 38's on their bow.

965: Three U.S. Navy icebreakers push an iceberg to clear a channel leading to McMurdo Station, Antarctica. (Arthur W. Thomas/Three Lions/Hulton Archive/Getty Images)
The gun mount can be clearly seen on the bow of the nearest ship facing aft.

 

[40 deg south]

First Pacific Island forum for Navy personnel held at Devonport Naval Base

The last reliable census in 2013 (noting that the Chief Statistician resigned yesterday over the botched 2018 one) gave the percentage of the NZ population identifying as being of Pacific Islands ethnicity as 7.4% (primarily Samoan, Tongan, Niuean and Tokelauan). It will have only increased since then, being on average significantly younger than most other ethnic groups.

The linked article says that the Navy currently has 4.3% of staff of Pacific Island ethnicities. With RNZN primarily based in Auckland (the world's largest Polynesian city), I think that percentage should be far higher. I have no idea if the forum (above) will have any measurable effects, but I do feel the NZ defence force is missing out on a significant and growing pool of recruits by not having better reach into our PI communities.

Aside from the pure numbers game, Pacific culture is (in general) very hierarchical in nature, with a strong emphasis on family/village/group priorities rather than individual self-fulfillment. I think those values could easily find a home in the military, and am continually surprised at how little effort seems to be put into recruiting from this sector.

Rant over.

 

[Xthenaki]

First Pacific Island forum for Navy personnel held at Devonport Naval Base

The last reliable census in 2013 (noting that the Chief Statistician resigned yesterday over the botched 2018 one) gave the percentage of the NZ population identifying as being of Pacific Islands ethnicity as 7.4% (primarily Samoan, Tongan, Niuean and Tokelauan). It will have only increased since then, being on average significantly younger than most other ethnic groups.

The linked article says that the Navy currently has 4.3% of staff of Pacific Island ethnicities. With RNZN primarily based in Auckland (the world's largest Polynesian city), I think that percentage should be far higher. I have no idea if the forum (above) will have any measurable effects, but I do feel the NZ defence force is missing out on a significant and growing pool of recruits by not having better reach into our PI communities.

Aside from the pure numbers game, Pacific culture is (in general) very hierarchical in nature, with a strong emphasis on family/village/group priorities rather than individual self-fulfillment. I think those values could easily find a home in the military, and am continually surprised at how little effort seems to be put into recruiting from this sector.

Rant over.

A problem - there can be major differences between some of the P.I. ethnic groups and not uncommon in NZ either between Maori. Sometimes a dislike or distrust emminating from historical confrontations. Working together in cells they are fantastic workers and here in Auckland are invaluable.

 

[StingrayOZ]

What are the massive plans of Australian in Antarctica please?

Construction of a network airfields. The main ones being the Wilkins Runway - Wikipedia, and the Davis Paved runway, which will be the only paved runway in Antarctica, and at 2.7 Km long, able to take most commercial (or military, *wink*) aircraft and will have probably weekly flights from hobart. It may also take flights from other countries. It will be able to operate year round. The Wilkins runway will be able to continue with its direct from Hobart A319 direct flights. The Davis paved runway will be the largest construction project undertaken in Antartica.
This will be in addition to the other airports:

• Mawson Skiway
• Davis Plateau/Davis sea iceSkiways
• Casey Station Skiway

The runway is part of a bigger plan for most Antarctic bases to be resupplied/remanned via Davis. They can then fly direct to their bases. All aircraft maintenance could be conducted at Davis for the entire continent in large hangers. It is also likely we will see the construction of a commercial hotel in Davis, for tourism.

There is also funding to rebuild the antartic bases.

The RSV Nuyina, a 26,000t ice breaker. Australia's new icebreaker - RSV Nuyina RSV Nuyina - Wikipedia which will also operate with RV Investigator - Wikipedia. RSV Nuyina will be able to resupply two large year round bases in a single trip. It will also be able to operate in and around Antarctica year round. Australia has allocated $2 billion for construction and 30 year operation of the vessel. It will be deployed 2020.

Australia has also expanded it C17 flights to Antarctica. These aircraft are able to deploy to Antarctica carrying significant heavy machinery and supplies. These are critical for supplies at the edges of winter out side of October and March. Australia also proved A2A refueling over Antarctica in 2017.

Australia intends to back its claim of sovereignty over Antarctica using multinational support. This includes other Antarctica claimants, none of which have overlapping claims with Australia, and other significant Antarctic partnering nations.

So for NZ, there is an opportunity to work in support of that. It might make sense to offer flights to casey to scott, perhaps in partnership with France.

 

[hauritz]

Territorial claims in Antarctica are a potential political minefield. There is a treaty in place at the moment banning mining or any other economic exploitation until the 2040s. The treaty will then come up for renegotiation. Even then it should be remembered that there are only 12 signatories to this treaty which means that there are 183 other countries who might have a different view of how ownership and management of Antartica should be divided.

At the moment any nation can build research stations anywhere that they like on the continent.

And yes China has a number of stations in Antarctica including at least one on Australian "territory".

 

[StingrayOZ]

Territorial claims in Antarctica are a potential political minefield. There is a treaty in place at the moment banning mining or any other economic exploitation until the 2040s. The treaty will then come up for renegotiation. Even then it should be remembered that there are only 12 signatories to this treaty which means that there are 183 other countries who might have a different view of how ownership and management of Antarctica should be divided.

At the moment any nation can build research stations anywhere that they like on the continent.

And yes China has a number of stations in Antarctica including at least one on Australian "territory".

Yes. Sort of.

• Australia claims 42% of Antarctica. Its not surprising that China would have a base in Australia's territory, Australia claims nearly half of the continent. Well the UK did, and then gave it to Australia.
• Australia has a MOU with China on Antartica Australia hosts Antarctic talks with China
• Russia and China have multiple stations in Australia's claim, as do other countries.
• Our claim is recognised by two P5 members (France and the UK) and we could probably get a 3rd (US) to do it if we twisted an arm.
• The French claim is completely surrounded by Australia's claim.
• The other nearby claimants, Norway and NZ also recognize our claim.
• Australia has the record for the longest continually manned base in Antarctica.
• Australia is highly collaborative on Antarctica. The French and the Italians work very closely with Australia to operate their Concordia Station - Wikipedia, which sits within Australia's claim (of course the French wouldn't build a base in their claim!).The french have basically run down Dumont d'Ureville and it basically is used to heavy resupply Concordia but basically all crewing comes through Australian bases.
• Australia has renewed extensive shipping and support capabilities.

A strong Australian claim is good for NZ claims as well.

Australia has been working on its Antarctic plan for sometime.
Antarctic sovereignty: are we serious? | The Strategist (2013)

Australia basically envisions all East Antarctic programs going through its facilities at least partially. Fly directly to the continent, then get picked up by another connecting flight or ship. Essentially more tourism to east Antarctica will come this way rather than ship. The runway is quite large, being longer than the original runway at Auckland airport. It will be able to support large aircraft in heavy load configurations.

The obvious candidates are France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Canada, EU, India, Russia, China, NZ, US, Japan, etc. You might also find a number of other countries establish bases nearby the Davis runway, as an antarctic program becomes much more affordable without the need to procure new icebreakers etc. They can literally order the logistics online.

For NZ it may be worth upgrading aviation capability to leverage this investment, rather than a series of icebreakers. Or in conjunction with.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Recent article dated 22 August from Nz Herald qouted astatement from Defence Minister Ron Mark said we have no available P3 or Frigates available to assist in the Straits of Hormuz, regarding the hijacking of foriegn flagged ships by Iran.Evidently that was his reply when approached by Britsh Govt if we could render assistance, Australia was mentioned as being willing to do so. Can anyone post the link?

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Here you go.

New Zealand has no boats to send to Strait of Hormuz: Defence Minister Ron Mark

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Timing is everything and the NZDF has hit near bottom with regard to capability. Lots of good coming for all services but years will pass until the new kit is up and running. Truly very poor planning.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Here you go.

New Zealand has no boats to send to Strait of Hormuz: Defence Minister Ron Mark

Thanks, really just states what we already figured. A bit rich coming from Gerry Brown Lee

Timing is everything and the NZDF has hit near bottom with regard to capability. Lots of good coming for all services but years will pass until the new kit is up and running. Truly very poor planning.

Even then, with only eight ships total once the Ipv are gone, and 4 P8 in the coming years we will be even less capable of providing assistance. A bit rich former Defence Minister Gerry Brownlee of National getting stuck into Labour for this, when they weren't willing to remedy this during their two terms in office

 

[Novascotiaboy]

The Peace Dividend. Thats the term used here many times as our once capable military rusts away yet again.

Some how over the decades minority voices have taken over as the public desire. Such folly has placed many western nations in a situation not to dissimilar to 1939. While i dont think we are at risk of a world war I do feel situations like the gulf shipping situation has the ability to put a strain on all of our economies.

Pirates and extremism and narcotics have our patrol forces stretched. Yet our elected inteligentia have their heads firmly buried in the sand. In your case there appears to be a single voice of reason in the form of Minister Marks. He speaks the truth. He is trying to resurrect platforms lost or decaying. But he is one voice, mighty as it may be.

If the plan for two LPDs or LHDs happens one would hope that this will be recognized as one of his legacies, P8s the other, to the NZDF and the people of NZ as they will be in service long after Minister Marks leaves this world.