NZDF General discussion thread

[John Fedup]

Rgr that.

I think it (MCU) was first introduced sometime around the 2013 timeframe (initially anyway) IIRC. It was developed by a company called Hyperstealth and selected with quite a bit of fanfare by the NZDF over a selection of other camo patterns (the main competition being multicam).

From an outsiders perspective, in my opinion it was a bit of a balls up because upper management wanted a camo that would perform well across a multitude of environments and I just think that this a bit unrealistic when perhaps compared with a uniform with more than one colourway (i.e. one woodland type plus one desert type etc etc).

Furthermore as with any govt department, there is only so much money in the kitty and the best option is invariably the most expensive option (so it’s immediately ruled out!)....so compromises have to be made - and therefore you get the second or third best option. Buy one pattern and hope it covers as many environments as possible, save some more money by getting a manufacturer who offers a great price (which translates to meaning “cuts corners”) and look where you end up.

I always thought that MCU was too light a shade for most of our country though I’m sure it was very good in a select number of places....

In my experience the original Crye Precision multicam performs very well in much of NZ bush and rural areas. Maybe if the NZDF had just gone with that in the first place, paid a bit more for them (as a quality / vetted manufacturer)...we wouldn’t be spending more now. Sometimes the “expensive “ option is actually the cheapest option.

Just my opinion....

Hyperstealth Biotechnology is a Canadian company that uses fractal mathematics to design camo patterns. They developed numerous designs for militaries around the world. They are a design company only, they license the designs to manufacturers of uniforms. If your operations are confined to the same environment, perhaps a single pattern is ok. For militaries with operations around the world or countries with vastly different regions (e.g. Canada), several patterns are needed.

 

[Whiplash34]

Hyperstealth Biotechnology is a Canadian company that uses fractal mathematics to design camo patterns. They developed numerous designs for militaries around the world. They are a design company only, they license the designs to manufacturers of uniforms. If your operations are confined to the same environment, perhaps a single pattern is ok. For militaries with operations around the world or countries with vastly different regions (e.g. Canada), several patterns are needed.

Thanks John, yup - aware of Hyperstealth’s background and that they primarily design patterns and not manufacture, from memory Guy Cramer is President/ CEO and one of their designs was selected for the Afghan army post the majority of the Taliban being routed and a provisional government being installed.

Just for clarification, I wasn’t taking a swipe at Hyperstealth, just bemused / annoyed that we (NZDF) spent a lot of money through trialling, paying for the rights to Hyperstealth for the pattern and then paid a manufacturer who produced uniforms not up to the requisite standard (didn’t fit great, faded very quickly, stitching issues etc etc).

Now we are changing everything after 6-7 years.

I know there is the benefit of hindsight, just thought we could have done better with some known quantities at the time.

Cheers.

 

[40 deg south]

Thanks John, yup - aware of Hyperstealth’s background and that they primarily design patterns and not manufacture, from memory Guy Cramer is President/ CEO and one of their designs was selected for the Afghan army post the majority of the Taliban being routed and a provisional government being installed.

Just for clarification, I wasn’t taking a swipe at Hyperstealth, just bemused / annoyed that we (NZDF) spent a lot of money through trialling, paying for the rights to Hyperstealth for the pattern and then paid a manufacturer who produced uniforms not up to the requisite standard (didn’t fit great, faded very quickly, stitching issues etc etc).

Now we are changing everything after 6-7 years.

I know there is the benefit of hindsight, just thought we could have done better with some known quantities at the time.

Cheers.

It does seem like a classic NZ defence example of 'penny-wise, pound foolish'.

Spend a lot of time/money identifying the specially-designed-for-New Zealand 'ideal solution', then contract actual production to a manufacturer who delivers a substandard product.

Sometimes going 'off-the-shelf' up front really is the smart option.

http://airforce.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/airforce-news/afn214.pdf

Pp 16-17 of the June 'Air Force News' have pics of some items issued to aircrew in the new pattern.

 

[John Fedup]

Thanks John, yup - aware of Hyperstealth’s background and that they primarily design patterns and not manufacture, from memory Guy Cramer is President/ CEO and one of their designs was selected for the Afghan army post the majority of the Taliban being routed and a provisional government being installed.

Just for clarification, I wasn’t taking a swipe at Hyperstealth, just bemused / annoyed that we (NZDF) spent a lot of money through trialling, paying for the rights to Hyperstealth for the pattern and then paid a manufacturer who produced uniforms not up to the requisite standard (didn’t fit great, faded very quickly, stitching issues etc etc).

Now we are changing everything after 6-7 years.

I know there is the benefit of hindsight, just thought we could have done better with some known quantities at the time.

Cheers.

Yep, Cramer is the CEO. Not sure if the NZ media ever copied the picture of a Canadian soldier arriving in Afghanistan in a forest green camouflage pattern uniform in early 2002. When it comes to incompetence on defence matters , Canadian governments excel, especially the one run by Chrétien.

 

[RegR]

The RNZAF are already wearing what looks like British multicam.

Not RNZAF per se, more 3 Sqn, but they have always done their own thing TBH. I would have thought pick a pattern and stick with it so if these guys "need" this particular kit then logically select this pattern as uniform (pun intended) defence issue. Our services already have their individual uniforms, starts looking abit messy (plus we are literally too small) when units start doing the same, nevermind the added logistics, costs etc.

For example I wonder how much we lost on the short lived unique MCU experiment?

 

[Catalina]

Which New Zealand Defence Companies have pubically listed shares available for purchase?

Good evening all.

I would like to purchase shares in New Zealand defence industry companies.

In the American sharemarket I own shares in Huntington Ingalls Industries, General Dynamics and Northrop Grumman. No response has been received from the NZDIA regarding which New Zealand Defence Industry companies have shares available for purchase.

Can someone please list the three largest defence industry companies in NZ that are listed on the NZ stock market thank you.

Yours Faithfully
Catalina

 

[MrConservative]

Which New Zealand Defence Companies have pubically listed shares available for purchase?

Good evening all.

I would like to purchase shares in New Zealand defence industry companies.

In the American sharemarket I own shares in Huntington Ingalls Industries, General Dynamics and Northrop Grumman. No response has been received from the NZDIA regarding which New Zealand Defence Industry companies have shares available for purchase.

Can someone please list the three largest defence industry companies in NZ that are listed on the NZ stock market thank you.

Yours Faithfully
Catalina

There are no publicly listed companies on the NZX Catalina. The NZDIA are all just SME-MME sized privately held companies.

 

[Todjaeger]

Then we have their Nuclear scenario which is so laughable and who the hell wants to destroy the land of milk, butter and honey to prove a point? I would use 6-7 direct action teams hitting key installations, 6-7 bio warfare teams armed with TB, Foot and Mouth, PSA with other bad goodies to effect NZ’s PI’s, cyber warfare unit mainly to hit NZSX, power stations, the Railways CTC, for shits and giggles traffic lights and lifts just to piss off Paul and Mr C and finally a doz plus Subs with all orders if it floats sunk it with. H Hour will be Midnight on New Years Eve as everyone will be piss as chooks around the country as DNB, RNZAF Base Auckland, both ends of the Cook Strait HVC and the Hydro Cracker or whatever it’s called (its very important and vital piece to oil refining from crude oil to go juice for the car etc) and the tank farm at Marsden Pt go bang as everyone would think they are all getting on the juice/ or they are partaking with their favourite poison to bring the new yr.

No, if one wishes to get a reaction, one should launch a cyber attack which deletes or otherwise re-labels the store and warehouse/distribution chain inventories throughout NZ for anything listed as a certain type of beverage... I am certain that would trigger a reaction from certain corners of DT not unlike this one. Yes, I know this suggestion is playing with fire, but...

 

[ngatimozart]

No, if one wishes to get a reaction, one should launch a cyber attack which deletes or otherwise re-labels the store and warehouse/distribution chain inventories throughout NZ for anything listed as a certain type of beverage... I am certain that would trigger a reaction from certain corners of DT not unlike this one. Yes, I know this suggestion is playing with fire, but...

Oooh that is a terrible thing to link to on here. You are an evil man, absolutely evil. Months of therapy I'll have to take now and for that you'll probably have to undertake a suitable punishment, when I can find one suitable and fit enough.

 

[John Fedup]

No, if one wishes to get a reaction, one should launch a cyber attack which deletes or otherwise re-labels the store and warehouse/distribution chain inventories throughout NZ for anything listed as a certain type of beverage... I am certain that would trigger a reaction from certain corners of DT not unlike this one. Yes, I know this suggestion is playing with fire, but...

BTW, great movie for the nautically inclined. Is the USN still the only 5eyes navy running dry ships?

 

[ngatimozart]

BTW, great movie for the nautically inclined. Is the USN still the only 5eyes navy running dry ships?

Nope the RNZN are running dry ships. That didn't and hasn't gone down well with some of the older salts still serving.

 

[RegR]

Nope the RNZN are running dry ships. That didn't and hasn't gone down well with some of the older salts still serving.

The younger ones either ngati, no one likes being treated like a child for the sake of PCness. I was only on CY a week at a time and having a couple (keyword couple) during a set function designed to break the monotony actually did wonders. Ah well times are a changing, for the better is still up for debate.

 

[htbrst]

More than 600 New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel, 27 New Zealand Army light armoured vehicles, three Royal New Zealand Air Force NH90 helicopters and Royal New Zealand Navy ship HMNZS Canterbury are on their way to Australia for Exercise Talisman Sabre 2019.

NZDF joining multi-national military Exercise in Australia

Some cool video's loading the vehicles (27 Lavs, 19 other vehicles), and one of the three NH-90's through the hanger:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=387632885430810

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2321325061461299

 

[At lakes]

Defence Technology Review : DTR JUL 2019, Page 1

I have put this post here as it deals with the DCP and I cant find the NZ Navy Link its disappeared on me

Reading the latest edition to the July issue of Defence Technology Review there is a review on the NZ Defence Capability Plan on Page 18 there is a comment on the possible acquisition of the South Ocean Patrol Vessel and its possible increase in capabilities in the Southern Ocean and thus allow the two 85 metre Protector class Patrol Vessels (A third on Order) greater capacity to respond to the South Pacific.

A third on order! did I miss something somewhere or is the Magazine referencing old data. I didn’t know there was a third on order, or am I just reading the article wrong.

 

[Gibbo]

Defence Technology Review : DTR JUL 2019, Page 1

I have put this post here as it deals with the DCP and I cant find the NZ Navy Link its disappeared on me

Reading the latest edition to the July issue of Defence Technology Review there is a review on the NZ Defence Capability Plan on Page 18 there is a comment on the possible acquisition of the South Ocean Patrol Vessel and its possible increase in capabilities in the Southern Ocean and thus allow the two 85 metre Protector class Patrol Vessels (A third on Order) greater capacity to respond to the South Pacific.

A third on order! did I miss something somewhere or is the Magazine referencing old data. I didn’t know there was a third on order, or am I just reading the article wrong.

You aren't reading it wrong, and it's not old data...it's merely a fantasy or bad research on the part of the author! I'd certainly interpret that way too but the DCP would be quite clear on that point if it were true. The 3rd OPV will be the Southern Ocean one and likely to be a few years away yet.

 

[milliGal]

The winter edition of the Line of Defence publication was released recently, and has some interesting pieces by Ron Mark, Mark Mitchell, Dr. Peter Greener and Dr. Wayne Mapp.

It sounds like the DCP has been well received overall, and the NZ industry appears happy that they will be given more engagement opportunities in the future. With that finally signed off on, Mr. Mark says his focus will now turn to the Defence Estate regeneration program. It would be a shame to see this can kicked down the road yet again so hopefully he is able to deliver more success here.

On the tactical airlift replacement Dr. Greener suggests that the A400M was passed over due its larger size limiting it's short/rough runway capability compared to the C-130J, while the KC-390 and C-2 were considered unproven platforms. I think the C-130J had a number of other factors in it's favour too, not least of which was the ease of transition. The C-130 is a proven platform that the RNZAF already has extensive experience with, so building up FoC with the C-130J will certainly be easier than with a brand new platform. With so many other platforms being introduced and upgraded across the NZDF over the next decade you can understand their desire to simplify this transition.

 

[htbrst]

Ron Mark (NZ Defence Minister) has been in China for the last week;
NZ 'resets relationship' with China - defence expert

"Since diplomatic relations between our two countries began in 1972, the bilateral relationship has grown to become one of New Zealand's most valuable and important," he told the PLA National Defence University this week.

New Zealand and China have signed a Memorandum of Arrangement Concerning Defence Cooperation.

That covers areas of common interest, including humanitarian assistance and disaster relief, as well as international peace cooperation activities.

The text of the memorandum of Arrangement can be found here: http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1907/Memorandum_of_Arrangement_Concerning_Defence_Cooperation.pdf

 

[htbrst]

The defence minister Ron Mark has announced a review of NZDF bases.

'Nimbies' threatening Whenuapai's future: Defence Minister

Whenuapai (Airforce - noise) and Devenport (Climate change) in particular are focused on in the article.

"Much of this defence infrastructure has fallen victim to deferred maintenance, budget cuts and shrinking government interest," Mark said.

"We can't predict what the future is going to look like in 2040 or 2045, but no one can say that a future government won't want to re-weaponise."

I know he meant pressures from houses close by mean it is now unsafe to load bombs etc onto P-3/P-8s, in light of the lack of government interest quote this sounded about right for the defence force itself

 

[RegR]

The defence minister Ron Mark has announced a review of NZDF bases.

'Nimbies' threatening Whenuapai's future: Defence Minister

Whenuapai (Airforce - noise) and Devenport (Climate change) in particular are focused on in the article.





I know he meant pressures from houses close by mean it is now unsafe to load bombs etc onto P-3/P-8s, in light of the lack of government interest quote this sounded about right for the defence force itself

They have not loaded bombs in Whenuapai for quite sometime now, the P3s would transit down to Ohakea, bomb up then fly back upto kaipara to drop them so thats not an issue, especially since the P8s are moving anyway.

They must be getting ready to close Auckland as they just built the new medical facility, currently refurbing the barracks and are about to open the new gym. Usually the case.

 

[Catalina]

What Surface to Air Missile defence capability do our defence forces possess that is capable of shooting down a 500kt AKD-20 ALCM or CJ-10A LACM launched from an H-6M or Type 055 targeted at one of our military facilities?

RNZA
12 x Mistral 2 MANPADS SAM launchers - 3nm range - 22 second engagement window

RNZN
2 x Frigates equipped with
Sea Ceptor missiles -15nm range - 108 second engagement window
Phalanx CIWS - .8nm range - 5 second engagement window

RNZAF
unknown