NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

What Surface to Air Missile defence capability do our defence forces possess that is capable of shooting down an AKD-20 ALCM or CJ-10A LACM launched from an H-6M or Type 055?

RNZA : unknown
RNZN : two units : Frigates Te Kaha and Te Mana equipped with Sea Ceptor missiles, Phalanx CIWS
RNZAF : unknown

NZ Army: Nil
RNZAF: Nil.

 

[Todjaeger]

NZ Army: Nil
RNZAF: Nil.

The NZ Army could possibly try using trashfire, and/or take the Mistral MANPADS out of whatever dusty corner of the armoury they were stuck in...

We will just ignore the fact that there would likely be very little Kiwi Situational Awareness to provide any sort of advanced notice that something was inbound...

 

[ngatimozart]

The NZ Army could possibly try using trashfire, and/or take the Mistral MANPADS out of whatever dusty corner of the armoury they were stuck in...

We will just ignore the fact that there would likely be very little Kiwi Situational Awareness to provide any sort of advanced notice that something was inbound...

Mk 1 eyeball.

 

[Todjaeger]

Mk 1 eyeball.

Hence the comment "advanced notice" keeping in mind that a high subsonic cruise missile can likely cover a kilometer in 3-4 seconds. Assuming a set of Mk I's were looking in the right direction, at the right time, and was actually able to see an inbound missile 36 km away, that would still only provide ~129 seconds to react...

 

[Catalina]

take the Mistral MANPADS out of whatever dusty corner of the armoury they were stuck in

So if hypothetical a submarine, surface warship, or long range patrol aircraft launched cruise missiles at say Devonport Naval Base, Whenupai, the Auckland Harbour bridge or the like, our nation is completely defenceless, bar our two frigates?

 

[At lakes]

Yep
edit : and the Beehive as well if they wanted

 

[ngatimozart]

So if hypothetical a submarine, surface warship, or long range patrol aircraft launched cruise missiles at say Devonport Naval Base, Whenupai, the Auckland Harbour bridge or the like, our nation is completely defenceless, bar our two frigates?

Yep and both our frigates are on the hard in Halifax, Canada at the moment in bits. So we have no air defence capabilities apart from Mk 1 eyeball operated guns with the largest being the 25 mm cannon on Canterbury, the 2 OPVs & NZLAV, plus the Mistral MANPADS that are stored in the dim dark depths of some NZDF warehouse.

Very pitiful isn't it?

 

[Todjaeger]

Yep and both our frigates are on the hard in Halifax, Canada at the moment in bits. So we have no air defence capabilities apart from Mk 1 eyeball operated guns with the largest being the 25 mm cannon on Canterbury, the 2 OPVs & NZLAV, plus the Mistral MANPADS that are stored in the dim dark depths of some NZDF warehouse.

Very pitiful isn't it?

Actuallly, the way I read the current situation is that a foreign vessel armed with a 57 mm gun could sail up towards DNB and shell the place and there would be little that the NZDF could do about it apart from possibly sortieing a SH-2 Seasprite which might be armed with Penguin AShM.

Not a good situation, especially for a nation as dependent on maritime SLOC as NZ is.

 

[John Fedup]

Yep and both our frigates are on the hard in Halifax, Canada at the moment in bits. So we have no air defence capabilities apart from Mk 1 eyeball operated guns with the largest being the 25 mm cannon on Canterbury, the 2 OPVs & NZLAV, plus the Mistral MANPADS that are stored in the dim dark depths of some NZDF warehouse.

Very pitiful isn't it?

I thought the upgrade work on the NZ frigates was being done in Victoria BC at the SeaSpan yard, not NS.

 

[MrConservative]

Actually, the way I read the current situation is that a foreign vessel armed with a 57 mm gun could sail up towards DNB and shell the place and there would be little that the NZDF could do about it apart from possibly sortieing a SH-2 Seasprite which might be armed with Penguin AShM. Not a good situation, especially for a nation as dependent on maritime SLOC as NZ is.

More likely and potentially more worrying is the threat vignette from a EA-03 electronic warfare drone. Think of a EA focused high-altitude, long-endurance Global Hawk clone with a range of 7,000km and a maximum endurance of 36 hours, equipped with electronic interference and jamming systems as well as a signals intelligence role. One report suggested its GPS interference pods could be used on devices up to 400km away.

The capability set to counter this is of course was deemed unnecessary 18 years ago and an article of faith has developed amongst Joe Public and his elected masters that this capability will never be required.

 

[MrConservative]

I thought the upgrade work on the NZ frigates was being done in Victoria BC at the SeaSpan yard, not NS.

Don't worry about old NG. He has a geography degree from Canterbury University who only have one map - that of the South island.

 

[Redlands18]

Actuallly, the way I read the current situation is that a foreign vessel armed with a 57 mm gun could sail up towards DNB and shell the place and there would be little that the NZDF could do about it apart from possibly sortieing a SH-2 Seasprite which might be armed with Penguin AShM.

Not a good situation, especially for a nation as dependent on maritime SLOC as NZ is.

Ring Canberra

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Ngati must have had a few wobbly pops to state the frigates were in Halifax. lol

 

[ngatimozart]

I thought the upgrade work on the NZ frigates was being done in Victoria BC at the SeaSpan yard, not NS.

Hmm, thought it was Halifax. I stand corrected. Mea culpa.

Don't worry about old NG. He has a geography degree from Canterbury University who only have one map - that of the South island.

Of course, since it's the only land mass of any consequence because it's home to the might Crusaders, Bluff oysters, the nectar of the gods - Speights and South Islanders. What more could you want?

Ngati must have had a few wobbly pops to state the frigates were in Halifax. lol

Don't drink that rubbish. Speights beer, navy rum or artillery port.

 

[Catalina]

sortieing a SH-2 Seasprite which might be armed with Penguin AShM

The problem is that a Seasprite only carries 2 Penguins. Any modern Chinese warship with the range to sortie from a forward base in the South Pacific can easily shoot down two incoming missiles. Its highly debatable as to whether a Seasprite would be able to launch before itself being shot down...

 

[Catalina]

Ring Canberra

Its likely that we would find the line busy as Canberra struggles with her own concerns...

As the Japan Times reported on the recent visit of three Chinese warships to Sydney...
"Australians enjoying a sunny winter morning were surprised by the sight of three Chinese warships steaming into to Sydney Harbour Monday, forcing the prime minister to reassure jittery residents."



Source of photo above: Secrecy Fears As Chinese Warships Sail into Sydney Harbor

 

[oldsig127]

"Australians enjoying a sunny winter morning were surprised by the sight of three Chinese warships steaming into to Sydney Harbour Monday, forcing the prime minister to reassure jittery residents."

A more accurate article would have read "ABC and News Ltd furious they weren't asked if Chinese ships could visit"

oldsig

 

[Todjaeger]

More likely and potentially more worrying is the threat vignette from a EA-03 electronic warfare drone. Think of a EA focused high-altitude, long-endurance Global Hawk clone with a range of 7,000km and a maximum endurance of 36 hours, equipped with electronic interference and jamming systems as well as a signals intelligence role. One report suggested its GPS interference pods could be used on devices up to 400km away.

The capability set to counter this is of course was deemed unnecessary 18 years ago and an article of faith has developed amongst Joe Public and his elected masters that this capability will never be required.

Hmm... let us not give people ideas, okay? I would rather rain on someone's parade than be hit with HALE...

 

[Catalina]

The NZ navy needs to increase the number of frigates to 4 and add another MRV

Hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!

 

[ngatimozart]

There is to be a baseline review of spending for Defence. No details have been released apparently it maybe part of the reform of the Public Finance Act (1989).

Robertson [Minister of Finance] announced he would soon go to Cabinet with a proposal to improve strategic planning and reporting, "testing a fundamentally different approach with one or two pilots."

"I won’t go into detail now, because we are still in the very early stages, but our proposal is that each pilot will put a spotlight on a specific long-term issue," he said, adding agency leaders would be asked to present scenarios and choices and create "multi-year pathways underpinned by milestones and indicators."

The Government had already done a baseline review of the Ministry of Social Development and planned one for Defence. Other departments could start looking forward to their baseline reviews, he said.

"I am not sure the creators of the act would approve of all the changes that I am proposing, but I hope they would admire the reforming spirit that I am approaching them with. It is time, 30 years on, to bring the PFA into the 21st century and put wellbeing and collaborative government at the centre of our approach."

Robertson denied to reporters the wellbeing measures would replace or be prioritised over prudent debt management. He referred to the recent change to widen the Government's net debt target from a point of 20 percent of GDP to a range of 15-25 percent. Currently, net debt is 19.3 percent of GDP.

"We could still borrow significantly more money and in my mind meet that objective, but it has a context, and it's the context we're now enhancing by putting the wellbeing objectives in," he later told reporters.
Source: Robertson eyes big Public Finance Act reform

I do not think that this will do Defence any good.