Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[hauritz]

Nuclear propulsion may not be an option at the moment, but who's to say that it doesn't become an option at some stage in the future due to:

• hydrocarbon based propulsion systems becoming more problematic because of:
  • scarcity of fuel due to dwindling supplies,
  • use of hydrocarbon based fuels become politically / environmentally untenable,
• breakthrough in nuclear fusion power generation,
• there is a political decision to go with nuclear propulsion.

I find myself wondering whether we will even have manned submarines in the future let alone nuclear ones.

No hands on deck: US and Australian progress in autonomous warfare at sea — United States Studies Centre

 

[ngatimozart]

I find myself wondering whether we will even have manned submarines in the future let alone nuclear ones.

No hands on deck: US and Australian progress in autonomous warfare at sea — United States Studies Centre

Well it's quite possible. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Systems Adict]

Thanks for the reply.

I take it, this refuel / Arm procedure would be the same for a Frigate , Destroyer or an LHD!

Regards S

ANY Warship that has a flight deck & refuelling capabilities.

Helo's are dangerous things & having them outside to arm/refuel is simply the best / safest option.

 

[Stampede]

ANY Warship that has a flight deck & refuelling capabilities.


Helo's are dangerous things & having them outside to arm/refuel is simply the best / safest option.

Given the above
I wonder how capable the new Arafura Class will be at carrying a Romeo helicopter.
Forget the constabulary stuff. That's for when things are nice.
I am wondering if we have actually got a pretty good future proofed vessel to be an effective aviation asset.
Yes the intention is to carry UAV's and no it does not have a hangar, and realistically it's too small to have one installed at a later date for a medium sized helicopter.
But the Arafura class does have some attributes and some mystery!
It does have a decent sized deck and weight loading for a Romeo / Taipan class helicopter.
The ships designer does spruik the ability to refuel a helicopter at sea.
The ship does have a flexi space underneath the flight deck with storage for two 20'containers.
While seemingly lightly armed, there is suggestion in the latest APDR that the new 40 mm cannon does actually have a true CIWS ability; especially given it's marriage of the weapons system, to the ships excellent combat management system , electro optical system and surveillance radar.
This appears a rather impressive array of systems for constabulary work.
Could there in fact be a place for our OPV's working closely with the LHD's.
The LHD's provide the maintenance capacity for the embarked helicopter when needed and the fleet gets an extra ship with a flight deck.
May not suite all scenarios, but I can envisage many it would and this will free up a ANZAC of Hobart destroyer to do other things.

It will be interesting to see what the Arafura class can do in the years ahead and how the RAN employs them
.

Regards S

 

[aussienscale]

Given the above
I wonder how capable the new Arafura Class will be at carrying a Romeo helicopter.
Forget the constabulary stuff. That's for when things are nice.
I am wondering if we have actually got a pretty good future proofed vessel to be an effective aviation asset.
Yes the intention is to carry UAV's and no it does not have a hangar, and realistically it's too small to have one installed at a later date for a medium sized helicopter.
But the Arafura class does have some attributes and some mystery!
It does have a decent sized deck and weight loading for a Romeo / Taipan class helicopter.
The ships designer does spruik the ability to refuel a helicopter at sea.
The ship does have a flexi space underneath the flight deck with storage for two 20'containers.
While seemingly lightly armed, there is suggestion in the latest APDR that the new 40 mm cannon does actually have a true CIWS ability; especially given it's marriage of the weapons system, to the ships excellent combat management system , electro optical system and surveillance radar.
This appears a rather impressive array of systems for constabulary work.
Could there in fact be a place for our OPV's working closely with the LHD's.
The LHD's provide the maintenance capacity for the embarked helicopter when needed and the fleet gets an extra ship with a flight deck.
May not suite all scenarios, but I can envisage many it would and this will free up a ANZAC of Hobart destroyer to do other things.

It will be interesting to see what the Arafura class can do in the years ahead and how the RAN employs them
.

Regards S

Taking all of what you have said, it then needs to be filtered down the funnel !

So when I filter it, the question that come out of the bottom is, what purpose would a Romeo or Taipan actually fill and do ?

You have to remember, especially in relation to a helicopter like the Romeo which is designed for a specific purpose, is that it is first and foremost a force multiplier, it is a system within systems, a layer within layers.

Then have a look at the purpose of the OPV's and their intended use ? Scope creep on a major scale.

Lets not make these any more than they are, this is a big step forward from the old patrol boat days. We need to look at overall force structure and CONOPS

Cheers

 

[Milne Bay]

Taking all of what you have said, it then needs to be filtered down the funnel !

So when I filter it, the question that come out of the bottom is, what purpose would a Romeo or Taipan actually fill and do ?

You have to remember, especially in relation to a helicopter like the Romeo which is designed for a specific purpose, is that it is first and foremost a force multiplier, it is a system within systems, a layer within layers.

Then have a look at the purpose of the OPV's and their intended use ? Scope creep on a major scale.

Lets not make these any more than they are, this is a big step forward from the old patrol boat days. We need to look at overall force structure and CONOPS

Cheers

It seems more likely to me that the Arafura class may embark UAV's - and even then probably not all the time.
MB

 

[Volkodav]

Taking all of what you have said, it then needs to be filtered down the funnel !

So when I filter it, the question that come out of the bottom is, what purpose would a Romeo or Taipan actually fill and do ?

You have to remember, especially in relation to a helicopter like the Romeo which is designed for a specific purpose, is that it is first and foremost a force multiplier, it is a system within systems, a layer within layers.

Then have a look at the purpose of the OPV's and their intended use ? Scope creep on a major scale.

Lets not make these any more than they are, this is a big step forward from the old patrol boat days. We need to look at overall force structure and CONOPS

Cheers

The only one i can think of is Lilly padding Romeo's while the bigger ships are busy doing other evolutions. Fuel for them would be interesting though as I am not sure what they are designed with considering the issues with the planned heavy fuel Camcopters.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Could be useful as a search an rescue + training platform in some cases. I don't think the fuel issue is a big one. Camcopters aren't exactly fuel guzzlers. And if they can use JP5 then that isn't a huge issue. Other helos might be useful in surveys and aid relief.

 

[Joe Black]

Arunta has been handed back to RAN

Frigate Arunta rejoins Australian Navy fleet after AMCAP upgrade

Does the new mast look really top heavy? I wonder what the stability is like for the FFH now.

I do realise they have done some stability test...
First Australian frigate to complete AMCAP upgrade tests stability

But it sure looks like the new CEAFAR -L radar and the new radar mount has put quite a fair bit of bulk rather high up. I do wonder if that will change the CoG quite a bit and cause the ship to roll in high sea states.

 

[ngatimozart]

It could be reasonably light but it does add a reasonable amount of sail area. Don't forget that they would also add ballast to the ship to counteract any stability problems. This would have / should have been calculated and allowed for during the planning part of the project.

 

[aussienscale]

Could be useful as a search an rescue + training platform in some cases. I don't think the fuel issue is a big one. Camcopters aren't exactly fuel guzzlers. And if they can use JP5 then that isn't a huge issue. Other helos might be useful in surveys and aid relief.

Depends on the location and requirements of the SAR, so yes possible to embark, but why would you when you have them on better platforms to do the job ?

And depending on the final numbers of UAV's, as a containerised kit may be easier and just as useful to have the UAV embarked to use for SAR.

Training ? not really needed to be honest, we have the Sycamore to do all the training we need, that is the point of why we purchased an aviation specific training ship to not take away from active ships and their roles for training purposes.

Ongoing training is part of any crew, and that includes any embarked flight assets, life at sea with an embarked helo is pretty much non stop training, it is part of the package.

So again, my opinion is that it would be a case of capability creep and well and truly outside the concept of what these ships are all about

Cheers

 

[Stampede]

Depends on the location and requirements of the SAR, so yes possible to embark, but why would you when you have them on better platforms to do the job ?

And depending on the final numbers of UAV's, as a containerised kit may be easier and just as useful to have the UAV embarked to use for SAR.

Training ? not really needed to be honest, we have the Sycamore to do all the training we need, that is the point of why we purchased an aviation specific training ship to not take away from active ships and their roles for training purposes.

Ongoing training is part of any crew, and that includes any embarked flight assets, life at sea with an embarked helo is pretty much non stop training, it is part of the package.

So again, my opinion is that it would be a case of capability creep and well and truly outside the concept of what these ships are all about

Cheers

Aussienscale, I need to say, I fully support the role in which the new OPV's were intended, that being as a vast improvement over the former three classes of patrol boats.
The patrol boat era has pasted and we now have a much bigger and more flexible ship in the Arafura class to conduct this business. I have no doubt these ships will have an influence on changing how we go about constabulary duties in the maritime environment; in particular are ability to venture and control the maritime space further from the coast. We will have a lot to learn in perfecting our ability to exploit this new capability, and in particular it's ability to employ organic UAV's to act as a force multiplier for the task at hand.
Totally agree this is the first priority for the ships and crew but it should not end there with a full stop.
These ships are potentially much better than this.
This is what interests me.
Particularly given that some will still be in service in some thirty years time.
Still doing the same stuff in three decades time.
I doubt it, as the world and the expectations of this class will have changed a lot in that time.
So what can this ship potentially do that sits in size and weight some what in between the European Braunschweig and Knud Rasmussen class of ships.
All somewhat similar with large flight decks aft and yet no hangar for helicopters, yet still with space for a respectable weapons fit.

IPE19 is a sign of the future for the RAN.
We will want to show that we have the ability to deploy small task groups at sea as a sovereign capability at considerable distance from home.
We have new supply ships on the way and now three very capable Amphibious assets. Where may may come up short is in supporting Frigates and Destroyers.
The Hunter Class is a decade away at best and so I can see a burden of responsibility falling to the new OPV's
Having said that, I do fully understand their limitations. At the same time I feel we should also be open to their potential.

A task group of LHD , AOR,and 3 / 4 destroyers/Frigates traded off for LHD, AOR 1/ 2 Destroyer / Frigates and 1/2 OPV's.
It will not fit all scenarios, but it will fit many, and most importantly the OPV's will be in the mix.

That's an OPV carrying a Romeo for a very specific purpose because, the freed up destroyer is now doing the same thing but now in a different Geography.

OPV as a force multiplier that can also do constabulatory stuff

We wait and see

Regards S

 

[Stampede]

The only one i can think of is Lilly padding Romeo's while the bigger ships are busy doing other evolutions. Fuel for them would be interesting though as I am not sure what they are designed with considering the issues with the planned heavy fuel Camcopters.

Aviation fuel type and quantity would be an interesting element to the ships potential.
Probably not one for the public forum if actually known.
The mystery
Regards S

 

[ASSAIL]

Aussienscale, I need to say, I fully support the role in which the new OPV's were intended, that being as a vast improvement over the former three classes of patrol boats.
The patrol boat era has pasted and we now have a much bigger and more flexible ship in the Arafura class to conduct this business. I have no doubt these ships will have an influence on changing how we go about constabulary duties in the maritime environment; in particular are ability to venture and control the maritime space further from the coast. We will have a lot to learn in perfecting our ability to exploit this new capability, and in particular it's ability to employ organic UAV's to act as a force multiplier for the task at hand.
Totally agree this is the first priority for the ships and crew but it should not end there with a full stop.
These ships are potentially much better than this.
This is what interests me.
Particularly given that some will still be in service in some thirty years time.
Still doing the same stuff in three decades time.
I doubt it, as the world and the expectations of this class will have changed a lot in that time.
So what can this ship potentially do that sits in size and weight some what in between the European Braunschweig and Knud Rasmussen class of ships.
All somewhat similar with large flight decks aft and yet no hangar for helicopters, yet still with space for a respectable weapons fit.

IPE19 is a sign of the future for the RAN.
We will want to show that we have the ability to deploy small task groups at sea as a sovereign capability at considerable distance from home.
We have new supply ships on the way and now three very capable Amphibious assets. Where may may come up short is in supporting Frigates and Destroyers.
The Hunter Class is a decade away at best and so I can see a burden of responsibility falling to the new OPV's
Having said that, I do fully understand their limitations. At the same time I feel we should also be open to their potential.

A task group of LHD , AOR,and 3 / 4 destroyers/Frigates traded off for LHD, AOR 1/ 2 Destroyer / Frigates and 1/2 OPV's.
It will not fit all scenarios, but it will fit many, and most importantly the OPV's will be in the mix.

That's an OPV carrying a Romeo for a very specific purpose because, the freed up destroyer is now doing the same thing but now in a different Geography.

OPV as a force multiplier that can also do constabulatory stuff

We wait and see

Regards S

I think you’re overly ambitious about the Arafura employment potential.
The only way they will be part of a TG will be as either Rapid Environmental Assessment platforms or in a Mine Clearance capacity.
They will continue the 50 years worth of patrol activity which started with the Attack class and maybe, on occasions they will be deployed on tasks such as Operation Manitou to relieve the frigates when required or to carry out patrol work in the archipelagos to our north.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Depends on the location and requirements of the SAR, so yes possible to embark, but why would you when you have them on better platforms to do the job ?

And depending on the final numbers of UAV's, as a containerised kit may be easier and just as useful to have the UAV embarked to use for SAR.

Training ? not really needed to be honest, we have the Sycamore to do all the training we need, that is the point of why we purchased an aviation specific training ship to not take away from active ships and their roles for training purposes.

Ongoing training is part of any crew, and that includes any embarked flight assets, life at sea with an embarked helo is pretty much non stop training, it is part of the package.

So again, my opinion is that it would be a case of capability creep and well and truly outside the concept of what these ships are all about

Cheers

I was thinking if we had one forward deployed afar. May not have other Australian assets in that exact location.
One operating out of Singapore. One out of Lombrom. One out at Fiji. Or further afield. Or if they too up duties in Africa or Mid East.

I agree, the UAV embarking capability is probably easier and just as useful in the situations suggested. The actual design of the ship is probably potentially significantly capable of supporting helos. But for Oz, your right, no interest in maximizing that.

But I am sure the ship builders are keen to point out the capability, if we were ever to build something for someone else, Navy or coast guard. That would probably be the only interest in ever supporting something like that, as a demonstration or as part of training capability for another Navy. Not actually using that capability that way, ourselves.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Depends on the location and requirements of the SAR, so yes possible to embark, but why would you when you have them on better platforms to do the job ?

And depending on the final numbers of UAV's, as a containerised kit may be easier and just as useful to have the UAV embarked to use for SAR.

Training ? not really needed to be honest, we have the Sycamore to do all the training we need, that is the point of why we purchased an aviation specific training ship to not take away from active ships and their roles for training purposes.

Ongoing training is part of any crew, and that includes any embarked flight assets, life at sea with an embarked helo is pretty much non stop training, it is part of the package.

So again, my opinion is that it would be a case of capability creep and well and truly outside the concept of what these ships are all about

Cheers

I was thinking if we had one forward deployed afar. May not have other Australian assets in that exact location.
One operating out of Singapore. One out of Lombrom. One out at Fiji. Or further afield.

I agree, the UAV embarking capability is probably easier and just as useful in the situations I've suggested. The actual design of the ship is probably potentially significantly capable of supporting helos. But for Oz, your right, no interest in maximizing that. Money and time better put to more important uses. There is also zero point looking at it, if no-one is interested.

 

[ngatimozart]

So some people want the Arafura class to be like this:

and / or capable of this:

So you end up with an OPV armed with a MRLS, 35 mm Millennium gun, triple 6" gun turret, capable of operating a Wildcat and Chook as well as a mexiflote. Interesting.

Image Source: Think Defence (@thinkdefence) | Twitter Vessel is RN OPV.

 

[Redlands18]

So some people want the Arafura class to be like this:

and / or capable of this:

So you end up with an OPV armed with a MRLS, 35 mm Millennium gun, triple 6" gun turret, capable of operating a Wildcat and Chook as well as a mexiflote. Interesting.

Image Source: Think Defence (@thinkdefence) | Twitter Vessel is RN OPV.

Now that’s just being absolutely ridiculous.


There is no way they would have enough room to accommodate more than 4 Girls

 

[oldsig127]

I was thinking if we had one forward deployed afar. May not have other Australian assets in that exact location.
One operating out of Singapore. One out of Lombrom. One out at Fiji. Or further afield. Or if they too up duties in Africa or Mid East.

Eh So what will replace the ones already hard pressed to do the work based out of Broome, Darwin, Cairns etc? You're robbing Peter to pay Paul - the existing work won't just disappear because the new OPVs arrive. We're *already* getting less of them because they're more capable, but I bet none can be in two places at once.

oldsig

 

[Stampede]

So some people want the Arafura class to be like this:

and / or capable of this:

So you end up with an OPV armed with a MRLS, 35 mm Millennium gun, triple 6" gun turret, capable of operating a Wildcat and Chook as well as a mexiflote. Interesting.

Image Source: Think Defence (@thinkdefence) | Twitter Vessel is RN OPV.

Ouch!

Clearly there would be two triple gun turrets located both for and aft.
Nice try
Can Mods be sent to the naughty corner?

Regards S

PS - Must be a foreign crew as I don't recognise their uniform!!!!