Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

Ouch!

Clearly there would be two triple gun turrets located both for and aft.
Nice try
Can Mods be sent to the naughty corner?

Regards S

PS - Must be a foreign crew as I don't recognise their uniform!!!!

The Mods own the naughty corner. Maybe you should be sent to it for not being up with your studies regarding uniforms.

The real point of my post is illustrate some of the silliness that can occur when people start suggesting this and that for a platform that is designed for a specific purpose in this case, the Arafura class OPV. It is first and foremost an OPV undertaking constabulary roles and EEZ monitoring. which don't require it needing combat capabilities other than those with which it already is going to being fitted with. If the CoA require something with greater combat capabilities in the area, they have other better suited capabilities and platforms at their disposal. If it was a corvette / OCV then the fitout is an entirely different matter, but it isn't. That ship has well and truly passed about 3 or 4 Prime ministers ago - I've lost count.

Time to let go and move on. There are more important things like the Maroons winning State of Origin - yet again , Black Caps the Cricket World Cup and the All Blacks the Rugby World Cup.

 

[ASSAIL]

HMAS Success returns to FBE for the last time to decommission.
I remember her being built at Cockatoo Island in the eighties, unfortunately the last ship to be built there and now 33 years on she’s going.
We had much discussion here a few years ago after her less than well managed conversion to twin hulling and all the subsequent problems and her going so soon after that seems to question the value of that whole episode.
However, it doesn’t detract from her proud record and those who served in her may well she’d a tear.
Vale HMAS Success.

HMAS Success returns to Fleet Base East - Navy Video Portal

 

[Exkiwiforces]

The Mods own the naughty corner. Maybe you should be sent to it for not being up with your studies regarding uniforms.

The real point of my post is illustrate some of the silliness that can occur when people start suggesting this and that for a platform that is designed for a specific purpose in this case, the Arafura class OPV. It is first and foremost an OPV undertaking constabulary roles and EEZ monitoring. which don't require it needing combat capabilities other than those with which it already is going to being fitted with. If the CoA require something with greater combat capabilities in the area, they have other better suited capabilities and platforms at their disposal. If it was a corvette / OCV then the fitout is an entirely different matter, but it isn't. That ship has well and truly passed about 3 or 4 Prime ministers ago - I've lost count.

Time to let go and move on. There are more important things like the Maroons winning State of Origin - yet again , Black Caps the Cricket World Cup and the All Blacks the Rugby World Cup.

Isn’t that the reason why the Joint Australian and Malaysia OPV project got caned in the late 80’s or 90’s as a bunch of muppets went nuts with various weapon and sensor fits to a point started to look like a Frigate plus and not an OPV?

One other funny thing to this joint project is when the project got caned, they forgot to cancel the helicopter that was meant for project. Anyway $2B dollars later and couple of decades later, the Kiwis end up with 8 of them for $250M and they ripped out the Flight Data Management System IOT go back to 3 man crew.

As old man Packer once said to Junior, “Son you only get one Alan Bond in your lifetime” after he sold his Channel 9 to old Bondie for an easy $1B and old Packer brought it back for a song. I guess the Kiwis might be looking out for bargain again with the latest Ozzie spend up in Defence when Ockers screw up again?

 

[Morgo]

Surely if you want to make the OPVs useful in a high threat environment is to pair 2 or 3 with a Hunter or Hobart, then park perhaps 4 NASAMS launchers on their flight decks?

You’ve then got an extra couple of nodes in a network centred on an AEGIS equipped major combatant. The Hunter / Hobart can then see substantially further, and has maybe another 72 ESSM in the network’s combined magazine.

And there is zero opportunity cost now - the OPVs remain focussed on constabulary duties in the meantime.

 

[Stampede]

The Mods own the naughty corner. Maybe you should be sent to it for not being up with your studies regarding uniforms.

The real point of my post is illustrate some of the silliness that can occur when people start suggesting this and that for a platform that is designed for a specific purpose in this case, the Arafura class OPV. It is first and foremost an OPV undertaking constabulary roles and EEZ monitoring. which don't require it needing combat capabilities other than those with which it already is going to being fitted with. If the CoA require something with greater combat capabilities in the area, they have other better suited capabilities and platforms at their disposal. If it was a corvette / OCV then the fitout is an entirely different matter, but it isn't. That ship has well and truly passed about 3 or 4 Prime ministers ago - I've lost count.

Time to let go and move on. There are more important things like the Maroons winning State of Origin - yet again , Black Caps the Cricket World Cup and the All Blacks the Rugby World Cup.

Arghhhh

I come form the southern states and not up with these foreign codes.
Anyway my game of choice was and is field hockey. A much faster sport now played by us slow middle aged blokes trying to be young again.
The things you do!

Regards S

 

[Stampede]

Eh So what will replace the ones already hard pressed to do the work based out of Broome, Darwin, Cairns etc? You're robbing Peter to pay Paul - the existing work won't just disappear because the new OPVs arrive. We're *already* getting less of them because they're more capable, but I bet none can be in two places at once.

oldsig

Fleet numbers are always a good question.
Made worse when blokes like me try to rob said OPV to do other things.
Part of that answer will be how Border force develops and what resources they get.
Certainly their new Cape class will provide good backup service and compliment defence in the constabulary role.
Should Border Force get more ships, or should Navy get more OPV's than the 12 planned?

Government will need to make a call this one out.


Regards S

 

[spoz]

Isn’t that the reason why the Joint Australian and Malaysia OPV project got caned in the late 80’s or 90’s as a bunch of muppets went nuts with various weapon and sensor fits to a point started to look like a Frigate plus and not an OPV?

One other funny thing to this joint project is when the project got caned, they forgot to cancel the helicopter that was meant for project. Anyway $2B dollars later and couple of decades later, the Kiwis end up with 8 of them for $250M and they ripped out the Flight Data Management System IOT go back to 3 man crew.

As old man Packer once said to Junior, “Son you only get one Alan Bond in your lifetime” after he sold his Channel 9 to old Bondie for an easy $1B and old Packer brought it back for a song. I guess the Kiwis might be looking out for bargain again with the latest Ozzie spend up in Defence when Ockers screw up again?

No, the OPC got canned because the Malaysians chose an adaptation of the German Meko design; had they chosen the Tenix ship we would have got some too. That was one of the sweeteners in the deal offered to Malaysia, put in there so they wouldn't have to become the parent Navy of a unique design. When they pulled out there was then seen to be no justification for the continuation of the Program for us alone.

The original plan for the helo project which became the Seasprites was for 27 aircraft for both the OPCs and the ANZACs (in fact its title was the ANZAC Ship Helicopter Program at that point). When the OPCs were cancelled the numbers were reduced to 11 with the possibility of eventually getting 3 more, for the ANZACs alone. The point of the FCS and ITAS systems was to go to a two man crew; if you took those out and went back to a simpler system you needed the three man crew; not the other way around. Once the Kiwis removed them they were destined to have a three man crew, which they are happy with but at the time we weren't.

The cost of the Seasprite program was under $1 billion, not 2 billion. At the end cost was not an issue, schedule and technical achievability of the desired outcome were - although had we pursued some of the fixes proposed for the technical issues that would have pushed the price over $1b.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Eh So what will replace the ones already hard pressed to do the work based out of Broome, Darwin, Cairns etc? You're robbing Peter to pay Paul - the existing work won't just disappear because the new OPVs arrive. We're *already* getting less of them because they're more capable, but I bet none can be in two places at once.

oldsig

Well some of that could be overlapped, the ideas of basing then further afield is so they are closer to where they may need to be. AusGov doesn't really like intercepting boats within our waters. Duttons Navy wants to get them before they hit Australian waters, which means the Australian Navy will have to operate further out. If Duttons Navy can get out onto the water.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...-australian-border-force-20190305-p511yl.html

I would assume we would have to base something out of Lombrum. Timor and Fiji were also making noises about the lack of firepower on the new pacific patrol boats, I believe there was talk about more regular Navy visits. If were aren't interested in that the Chinese said they would gladly furnish new armed patrol boats (as what Timor has just got) and chinese crews for them as well under local command until they could train enough crew.

Jaco-class patrol boat - Wikipedia
Type 062 gunboat - Wikipedia

If the OPV's are going to take over the Huon jobs, its entirely possible they will be working out past our local waters.

As for more ships, the Patrol class is probably the only class that could reasonably expect an increase in numbers as they replace all the other RAN ships.

 

[Oberon]

HMAS Success returns to FBE for the last time to decommission.
I remember her being built at Cockatoo Island in the eighties, unfortunately the last ship to be built there and now 33 years on she’s going.
We had much discussion here a few years ago after her less than well managed conversion to twin hulling and all the subsequent problems and her going so soon after that seems to question the value of that whole episode.
However, it doesn’t detract from her proud record and those who served in her may well she’d a tear.
Vale HMAS Success.

HMAS Success returns to Fleet Base East - Navy Video Portal

I was at Codock in the 80s but not working on the AOR project. I was associated with the sub refits. She was a fine looking ship but I do recall the many technical problems associated with French design and construction philosophy. I hope this doesn't carry forward to the shortfin barracuda design and construction.

BTW, has anyone seen gf0012 lately? I haven't seen him post for over twelve months now.

 

[76mmGuns]

Eh So what will replace the ones already hard pressed to do the work based out of Broome, Darwin, Cairns etc? You're robbing Peter to pay Paul - the existing work won't just disappear because the new OPVs arrive. We're *already* getting less of them because they're more capable, but I bet none can be in two places at once.

oldsig

Hmm, maybe they can be in 2 places at once, since they will have 3 rhib's, one of which will be 10-11m long with a range of several hundred km. I know, they are used for boarding, but having 3 gives you options.

 

[hauritz]

Fleet numbers are always a good question.
Made worse when blokes like me try to rob said OPV to do other things.
Part of that answer will be how Border force develops and what resources they get.
Certainly their new Cape class will provide good backup service and compliment defence in the constabulary role.
Should Border Force get more ships, or should Navy get more OPV's than the 12 planned?

Government will need to make a call this one out.


Regards S

Before the last election the government committed itself to build at least 2 mine hunters to replace the Huons. It is probably a reasonable assumption that these will be based on the new OPVs. I guess there is also the possibility of additional units being built to replace part of the Hydrographic fleet and perhaps go on to replace the Cape class with the border force.

I am not sure what the hull life will be on the OPV but around 20 years would sound reasonable if you want this to be a continuous build program.

 

[ngatimozart]

Hmm, maybe they can be in 2 places at once, since they will have 3 rhib's, one of which will be 10-11m long with a range of several hundred km. I know, they are used for boarding, but having 3 gives you options.

Have you done any sea time out of sight of land? Just exactly what options would these be?

 

[oldsig127]

Hmm, maybe they can be in 2 places at once, since they will have 3 rhib's, one of which will be 10-11m long with a range of several hundred km. I know, they are used for boarding, but having 3 gives you options.

Utterly missing the point. You might as well say that if the Navy had 10,000 3-metre tinnies spread around the coast we wouldn't need *any* OPVs. The new ships are larger than those they're replacing because (in part) they aren't large enough to perform the tasks required. There are fewer of them because they've already accounted for the greater capacity of the new OPVs to complete the required tasks.

And I feel comfortable betting that while there will have been consideration of using them further afield, it won't have included stripping 1/4 of the fleet and sending them out semi-permanently to distant ports in other country's territories and depleting our own coverage

oldsig

 

[Redlands18]

Utterly missing the point. You might as well say that if the Navy had 10,000 3-metre tinnies spread around the coast we wouldn't need *any* OPVs. The new ships are larger than those they're replacing because (in part) they aren't large enough to perform the tasks required. There are fewer of them because they've already accounted for the greater capacity of the new OPVs to complete the required tasks.

And I feel comfortable betting that while there will have been consideration of using them further afield, it won't have included stripping 1/4 of the fleet and sending them out semi-permanently to distant ports in other country's territories and depleting our own coverage

oldsig

I think if a future Government was to decide to permanently Base OPVs Overseas, Manus Island for instance, then we would probably see extra OPVs on top of the 12 we are getting, maybe bigger with extra capabilities.

 

[Volkodav]

Sea control in choke points outside of Australia's waters was an OPC / Corvette role, hence their NSSM/ESSM, Harpoon and Penguin equipped Super Sea Sprites. It was seen to be the minimum required to survive in lower threat areas outside of Australian waters with the upgraded (for and with?) ANZACs and FFG/DDG replacement class of 8-9 high end air defence frigates (think New Threat Upgrade standard rather than AEGIS) dealt with the higher threat zones.

This plan lasted from the Dibb review and subsequent white paper, until the early/mid 90s with the recession we had to have / Keating PMship, followed by the Howard government first and second term cuts.

Realistically 8 SSGs, 9 DDG/FFG, 8 PF (ANZACs) and 8-12 Corvettes, 16 upgraded Seahawks (Penguin etc.) and 27 Super Sea Sprites was probably unaffordable, but it was seen and the minimum needed to control our regional sea lanes. Back then less sophisticated platforms were good enough and greater numbers were more affordable, now threats make the minimum necessary capability much more expensive, hence reduced numbers.

Before anyone arcs up about crew numbers, just remember the DDGs had crews over 330, FFGs had nominal crews of 180, but were deploying with 200, and the River class DEs had 250 crew members, even the O boats had 67 from memory. When these plans were made it was assumed that the RAN manpower would remain about the same, it would just be spread over more hulls. When plans were delayed, projects deferred or cancelled, and economies made, manpower, particularly among technical sailors and engineers, reduced. By the time the money from the mining constructionc boom started flowing into the government's coffers, the RANs engineering capability had been gutted, ship building had gone over a decade (two government's and three PMs) without orders for any new warships and, with the last ANZACs and Collins finished construction and in final outfit, about to enter an industry destroying shipbuilding black hole.

It could be argued the billions it cost to remediate the loss of RAN engineering capability and shipbuilding skill, could have quite easily paid the wages of retaining the extra personnel as well as building the extra hulls. The Coles, Rizzo and other reports, as well as the current ship building plan seem to confirm that at least the current government realises the 90s and 2000s were full of bad planning, a lack of foresight and missed opportunities.

 

[John Fedup]

It could be argued the billions it cost to remediate the loss of RAN engineering capability and shipbuilding skill, could have quite easily paid the wages of retaining the extra personnel as well as building the extra hulls. The Coles, Rizzo and other reports, as well as the current ship building plan seem to confirm that at least the current government realises the 90s and 2000s were full of bad planning, a lack of foresight and missed opportunities.

Agree, Canada made the same mistakes and we are paying for it big time, first by having to upgrade shipyards and worker skill development and second, having to depend on other countries for replenishment as Asterix can’t service both coasts. The RCN won’t see a second AOR until 2022, perhaps even later. Any significant delays on our CSC project may result in the RCN having Halifax frigates contesting our Hornets and SeaKings records for longest serving kit.

 

[hauritz]

It could be argued the billions it cost to remediate the loss of RAN engineering capability and shipbuilding skill, could have quite easily paid the wages of retaining the extra personnel as well as building the extra hulls. The Coles, Rizzo and other reports, as well as the current ship building plan seem to confirm that at least the current government realises the 90s and 2000s were full of bad planning, a lack of foresight and missed opportunities.

At least we now have a shipbuilding plan but to my mind, there is still a lack of urgency. In fact, the replacement of the Anzacs and Collins classes may have been delayed in order to facilitate this shipbuilding plan.

Hopefully, the benefits of this program won't be squandered with future governments' backtracking, slowing down the program or even outright cancelling orders over the coming decades.

 

[ngatimozart]

At least we now have a shipbuilding plan but to my mind, there is still a lack of urgency. In fact, the replacement of the Anzacs and Collins classes may have been delayed in order to facilitate this shipbuilding plan.

@hauritz What evidence do you have to claim this assertion? It would've only been an uninformed opinion until you used the words "in fact" which makes it a claim of substance. No I am not being pedantic; I want some clarification supported by reputable sources, so that the rest of us can be bought up to date.

 

[oldsig127]

I think if a future Government was to decide to permanently Base OPVs Overseas, Manus Island for instance, then we would probably see extra OPVs on top of the 12 we are getting, maybe bigger with extra capabilities.

Yes, and there's the rub. Sending three out of twelve to forward bases in other countries leaves us short in our own area. Buying more ships to fill the gap comes at a cost. What will we be giving up in order to have them? One or two frigates? Or increased out of pocket expenses for medical care? Or get our pensions yet another couple of years later? Or perhaps a tax rise?

Who'd be a politician?

oldsig

 

[StingrayOZ]

At least we now have a shipbuilding plan but to my mind, there is still a lack of urgency. In fact, the replacement of the Anzacs and Collins classes may have been delayed in order to facilitate this shipbuilding plan.

Hopefully, the benefits of this program won't be squandered with future governments' backtracking, slowing down the program or even outright cancelling orders over the coming decades.

I think it just seems like a lack of urgency to the outside observer.

We can't accelerate the Future frigates or the Collins replacement any faster than what we are doing now. BAE screamed blue murder when Pyne kept pushing them on getting up and running earlier. The French are also feeling the customer heat on the subs. We are raming the Anzacs through refits as fast as we possibly can, we are flat out building the shipyards to build new ships (I believe the shipyard construct is ahead on time) and we are building the OPV's right now. We have the Pacific boats coming off the line as we speak and going out to our regional neighbors who so far seem quite happy with them. Again, this doesn't hit the front page so people aren't aware.

Tonga receives Guardian-class Patrol Boat | Department of Defence Ministers

We handed over another Guardian class to Tonga on Friday last week! We handed another one in April to Tuavlu and PNG in late 2018.

The problem is we are coming from such a low base. We didn't even really have the shipyards (well not where we needed them and the ones that did exist are now historic monuments to our past when we built things). Plus the general flopping around on the decisions and some decisions in hind sight we probably need to go the other way.

But there is all this ground work (literally, building the physical foundations of the shipyards) that needs to happen before ships start sliding off ramps and commissioning ceremonies. The yards we do have, have ships flying off the ramp and going out.

But the big impressive ships aren't here right now, so its this frustrating period, where people don't see blocks of big ships being put together..