The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

Indeed. So who would you have build them, bearing in mind that they'd be an orphan class rather than one similar to the T31 (should it go that way)? I'm not sure that RNZN is a big enough outfit any longer to wear the risks alone

oldsig

South Korea probably and yes an orphan class but not in the fitout of weapons, sensors CMS etc. That is where the commonality is important. If there is a machinery breakdown and the blanket counters don't have the required part hidden in their store then the stokers will have to get inventive

 

[StingrayOZ]

If NZ liked the OMT F370 design on which the Arrowhead 140 is based, why would we involve Babcocks and not deal directly with OMT acquiring a license from them? Cut the middleman out have the ship designed to our specs. Probably less risky because we wouldn't have to be concerned about any pommy "improvements" which generally tend to be costly and time consuming, especially after the RN and MOD get their hands on the design.

Which is why I think export orders are unlikely. All the customers are sovereign nations, and don't owe anything or benefit from the UK building them. There are cheaper yards for these options.

Do you want to pay pommy yard prices, or order something from S.Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Indonesia, Singapore, Eastern European yard prices. Australia and Canada will also have yard capable of doing work, and Australia has added advantage of location and being the regional power and Canada has done some recent work.

So yeh, I don't know if the UK will get any of its exports. Indonesia, Singapore and Brazil seem intent on building anything locally anyway. The mid east order always seem to evaporate when dealing with navy stuff. I wouldn't bet on it.

South Korea also has some competing designs, as does Japan that would probably suit NZ down to the ground. I would imagine as soon as you started talking to Korea they would sell you a Chungmugong Yi Sun-sin-class destroyer - Wikipedia or Daegu-class frigate - Wikipedia for a price you couldn't refuse.

The type 26 was so successful because Australia and Canada wanted big, low man power, long range, flexible, platforms. No one else really was offering that.

 

[ngatimozart]

Which is why I think export orders are unlikely. All the customers are sovereign nations, and don't owe anything or benefit from the UK building them. There are cheaper yards for these options.

Do you want to pay pommy yard prices, or order something from S.Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Indonesia, Singapore, Eastern European yard prices. Australia and Canada will also have yard capable of doing work, and Australia has added advantage of location and being the regional power and Canada has done some recent work.

So yeh, I don't know if the UK will get any of its exports. Indonesia, Singapore and Brazil seem intent on building anything locally anyway. The mid east order always seem to evaporate when dealing with navy stuff. I wouldn't bet on it.

South Korea also has some competing designs, as does Japan that would probably suit NZ down to the ground. I would imagine as soon as you started talking to Korea they would sell you a Chungmugong Yi Sun-sin-class destroyer - Wikipedia or Daegu-class frigate - Wikipedia for a price you couldn't refuse.

The type 26 was so successful because Australia and Canada wanted big, low man power, long range, flexible, platforms. No one else really was offering that.

Exactly and for what a Type 26 costs we could buy a KD-III (Sejong the Great) class DDG with AEGIS. With 128 VLS cells it is basically a CCG. I could just see the cardiac arrests in Treasury and Cabinet if that proposal was put forward. The ambos would be flat out like a lizard drinking
Sejong the Great-class destroyer - Wikipedia

 

[Ananda]

Exactly on many potential market has preference on building on their own yards. India, Brazil, Singapore, Indonesia, Australia, even Malaysia. Vietnam also shown tendencies in future to build on their own yards, so does Philipines. Even in middle East, Egypt now begin their own local projects with Gowind Corvettes while Turkey already in full fledge local program.

So the game now and in future is selling the design, and perhaps building one or two more specialise modules.
The West European yards has and for foreseeable future has Tech advantage on design and project management (except with South Korean and Japanese yards).

However if type 31 is not come from British design or British owned IP design, what benefit of Type 31 for British yards work share in future export market ?

Damen already in full swing motions on selling design to be build in Local Yards. They already doing it with Indonesia and Vietnam. In fact for Indonesian next frigate program, they send one brand new design called 'Omega' to compete with Danish 'Iver based' design.
Philippines already shown tendencies for their next OPV to be build using Austal design on Austal yards in Philippines.

So, again if those 5 Type 31 will be using Danish or German design (which make them uncompetitive on export market toward Danish and German owned projects), and (in final design) will cost around 2-3 type 26 (even a watered down version, thus not shown the economics benefit), then why type 31 has to exist?

 

[Redlands18]

Exactly on many potential market has preference on building on their own yards. India, Brazil, Singapore, Indonesia, Australia, even Malaysia. Vietnam also shown tendencies in future to build on their own yards, so does Philipines. Even in middle East, Egypt now begin their own local projects with Gowind Corvettes while Turkey already in full fledge local program.

So the game now and in future is selling the design, and perhaps building one or two more specialise modules.
The West European yards has and for foreseeable future has Tech advantage on design and project management (except with South Korean and Japanese yards).

However if type 31 is not come from British design or British owned IP design, what benefit of Type 31 for British yards work share in future export market ?

Damen already in full swing motions on selling design to be build in Local Yards. They already doing it with Indonesia and Vietnam. In fact for Indonesian next frigate program, they send one brand new design called 'Omega' to compete with Danish 'Iver based' design.
Philippines already shown tendencies for their next OPV to be build using Austal design on Austal yards in Philippines.

So, again if those 5 Type 31 will be using Danish or German design (which make them uncompetitive on export market toward Danish and German owned projects), and (in final design) will cost around 2-3 type 26 (even a watered down version, thus not shown the economics benefit), then why type 31 has to exist?

You are not the first person to ask that question, the only advantage 5 Type 31e seems have over 2 or 3 Type 26 is numbers.

 

[hauritz]

You are not the first person to ask that question, the only advantage 5 Type 31e seems have over 2 or 3 Type 26 is numbers.

Absolutely. In raw capability terms I would take fewer Type 26s over the type 31 any day. Perhaps the RN might be better off arming their OPVs and using them for the lower end tasks. The situation isn't ideal but short of increasing their defence spending, there aren't a lot of other options.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Exactly and for what a Type 26 costs we could buy a KD-III (Sejong the Great) class DDG with AEGIS. With 128 VLS cells it is basically a CCG. I could just see the cardiac arrests in Treasury and Cabinet if that proposal was put forward. The ambos would be flat out like a lizard drinking
Sejong the Great-class destroyer - Wikipedia

But purchase price is only part of the story.

What something like the Daegu-class offers:

• MT-30 and MTU diesel propulsion.
• 16 cell VLS
• 5" Gun
• 140 crew

Its actually smaller than an Anzac class, with smaller crew. Throw in that Canadian combat system and integration. You could probably delete the MU-30 and shrink the crew further. They are currently building 3 of the 8 class currently.

Not that the design is particularly appealing, but for a lot of nations they aren't looking at massive missile loadouts. Given how hard it was to get NZ to agree to the Anzacs, and no 3rd ship ordered, I do wonder what they will replace them with.

 

[ngatimozart]

But purchase price is only part of the story.

What something like the Daegu-class offers:

• MT-30 and MTU diesel propulsion.
• 16 cell VLS
• 5" Gun
• 140 crew

Its actually smaller than an Anzac class, with smaller crew. Throw in that Canadian combat system and integration. You could probably delete the MU-30 and shrink the crew further. They are currently building 3 of the 8 class currently.

Not that the design is particularly appealing, but for a lot of nations they aren't looking at massive missile loadouts. Given how hard it was to get NZ to agree to the Anzacs, and no 3rd ship ordered, I do wonder what they will replace them with.

I was being facetious and such a discussion is for the RNZN thread, rather than the RN thread. The point I am making though is for the same amount of treasure a CCG is available.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I was being facetious and such a discussion is for the RNZN thread, rather than the RN thread. The point I am making though is for the same amount of treasure a CCG is available.

I know. It would please most Australians if NZ decided to acquire 3 Burke based destroyers/cruisers. As should Singapore, Malaysia. The FDPA would look pretty capable with another 9 aegis destroyers/cruisers. Then again it would likely be better with 3 Type 26's rather than 5 31e's.

But realistically they won't. I think realistically the Arrow 140 design is a design too far. But at least its low crewing, low cost, etc.

Australia is finding tremendous use of its "flexible" multirole ships, the Arrow 140 is pretty specialised and isn't that flexible. High intensity war is only one set of the equation. I think enthusiasm for the 31e export potential is overrated. If it was that hot, they would already have customers.

 

[MrConservative]

I was being facetious and such a discussion is for the RNZN thread, rather than the RN thread. The point I am making though is for the same amount of treasure a CCG is available.

I agree this is a RN thread and not RNZN thread.

People also will to factor in that their is a real chance that with a new PM and Chancellor, Sec State Def, and Foreign Sec in the next few weeks, there will likely be a change in posture and mood with regards to UK Defence spending and a push towards investing more in the Defence sector including shipbuilding than what has happened under the Blair-Brown-Cameron-May era.

That may have significant impact on both the Type 31 and Type 26. There may be greater certainty, with more vessels built.

If the Arrowhead 140 is selected and the second batch funded which has always been a possibility and if there was a reasonable level of UK Govt furnished equipment and capability (for example Tacticos, 997 Artisan, Sea Ceptor, 30mm DS30M, 2087 & 2050 Sonar, Mk 41 VLS and ExLS et al, committed to the program, then the Arrowhead has the potential to be a very capable surface combatant and if executed right it would be a very good enabling capability in support of the higher end Type 26, much like the Type 22 and Type 23 mix previously.

There is more to an exported frigate than the vessel itself, for example the contractual side and the settlement of contractual issues are significant. The reliability and government backing of the build nation are also factors which may appeal to certain countries (Yes like New Zealand) and because the UK government, a significant NATO power and post Brexit FTA possibilities - there maybe a case for a country to spend slightly more on the construction of the hull than say another lower cost 3rd party builder.

 

[Xthenaki]

South Korea probably and yes an orphan class but not in the fitout of weapons, sensors CMS etc. That is where the commonality is important. If there is a machinery breakdown and the blanket counters don't have the required part hidden in their store then the stokers will have to get inventive

Ref:JANE 360 3/06/2019
South Korea, New Zealand sign defence equipment accord

DAPA (SK - Defence Acquisition Program Admin) said that under the "military material Co-operation agreement"the two sides will identify areas for their respective defence industries to collaborate on. Such activity could include information sharing and the joint production of military equipment.

For more see above reference

MOD EDIT: Link added. NG.

 

[Xthenaki]

Ref:JANE 360 3/06/2019
South Korea, New Zealand sign defence equipment accord

DAPA (SK - Defence Acquisition Program Admin) said that under the "military material Co-operation agreement"the two sides will identify areas for their respective defence industries to collaborate on. Such activity could include information sharing and the joint production of military equipment.

For more see above reference

MOD EDIT: Link added. NG.

Thanks for that.

 

[spoz]

But what do the last two posts have to do with the RN?? There is an RNZN thread.

 

[StingrayOZ]

There is more to an exported frigate than the vessel itself, for example the contractual side and the settlement of contractual issues are significant. The reliability and government backing of the build nation are also factors which may appeal to certain countries (Yes like New Zealand) and because the UK government, a significant NATO power and post Brexit FTA possibilities - there maybe a case for a country to spend slightly more on the construction of the hull than say another lower cost 3rd party builder.

While the UK is a significant NATO power (really 2nd to the US IMO), that doesn't hold a lot of weight when the biggest NATO power and backbone of NATO is calling the entire arrangement into question. NATO has essentially no power outside of Europe, and is dependent on the US power within Europe.

I think the UK is going about this the wrong way. There seems to be this belief that it is going to be the UK back on top, a powerful and great empire once it throws off the chains (ha!) of Europe and now the US is lets say, less cohesive on the international stage. That all the colonies will come swooning back. That countries will view the UK as a relevant outright power and seek to deal with the UK to for their future. It will also be a neat way to fill production time back in UK yards.

I don't see it like that. That is a very old and dated model. Why not go to NZ, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, various Arab countries and other nations and ask them what they want. Make a joint development project, with their input. Get something practical, common, affordable. Not all of those are going to get on board and not all of them are going to want the same thing but then you have some basic coalition on board that can agree on a basic weapon system (combat and radar?) or hull. Maybe back it up with a complementary OPV or patrol ship. The UK gov will agree to keep BAE inline and leverage them with UK orders and work. Throw in training, development, regular visits, wider defence contracts with not just the UK but supported by Canada and Australia.

Take for example the attempted deal between Canada and the Philippines for helicopters. Maybe the best way to sell those would be through the UK, and as part of a wider deal including ships etc. Australia is clearly intent on setting up its own defence industries, but striking deals alone with nations in the ME or Africa is going to be super hard, where as the UK could easily facilitate that. Rather than competing with its colonial kin, why doesn't the UK work in partnership.

We could work to create a supply chain and defense industry that is apart from the US and the EU. With global reach and capability and support. Between Australia Canada and the UK you have 3 very different forces, wide mission capable but with very different focus in each.

 

[MrConservative]

While the UK is a significant NATO power (really 2nd to the US IMO), that doesn't hold a lot of weight when the biggest NATO power and backbone of NATO is calling the entire arrangement into question. NATO has essentially no power outside of Europe, and is dependent on the US power within Europe.

I think the UK is going about this the wrong way. There seems to be this belief that it is going to be the UK back on top, a powerful and great empire once it throws off the chains (ha!) of Europe and now the US is lets say, less cohesive on the international stage. That all the colonies will come swooning back. That countries will view the UK as a relevant outright power and seek to deal with the UK to for their future. It will also be a neat way to fill production time back in UK yards.

I don't see it like that. That is a very old and dated model. Why not go to NZ, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, various Arab countries and other nations and ask them what they want. Make a joint development project, with their input. Get something practical, common, affordable. Not all of those are going to get on board and not all of them are going to want the same thing but then you have some basic coalition on board that can agree on a basic weapon system (combat and radar?) or hull. Maybe back it up with a complementary OPV or patrol ship. The UK gov will agree to keep BAE inline and leverage them with UK orders and work. Throw in training, development, regular visits, wider defence contracts with not just the UK but supported by Canada and Australia.

Take for example the attempted deal between Canada and the Philippines for helicopters. Maybe the best way to sell those would be through the UK, and as part of a wider deal including ships etc. Australia is clearly intent on setting up its own defence industries, but striking deals alone with nations in the ME or Africa is going to be super hard, where as the UK could easily facilitate that. Rather than competing with its colonial kin, why doesn't the UK work in partnership.

We could work to create a supply chain and defense industry that is apart from the US and the EU. With global reach and capability and support. Between Australia Canada and the UK you have 3 very different forces, wide mission capable but with very different focus in each.

I agree with that and like many I don't buy into some of the Rule Britannia dreams and meme's from some sectors of the British politique. But I also don't by into the meme that they are finished as a nation state post Brexit. Partnerships are actually front and centre of a new policy direction that has being initiated within Whitehall and one country that is on their agenda at the G2G level is Japan. The UK has a very capable and long established defence sector with some significant players, however it has been effectively nobbled by the fiscal and political prevarication over the last three decades. However partnering with Japan (which is emerging into a post Art. 9 world and has incredible latent capability within the defence sector), possibly Singapore as well as Canada and Australia and also NZ for example - which does have some very capable niche players within the tech scene together could provide a 3rd alternative nexus to the current EU and US duopoly.

 

[Systems Adict]

...Getting back to RN focused comments, I saw this in passing.....

HMS Trent completes sea trials | Royal Navy

 

[swerve]

I agree this is a RN thread and not RNZN thread.

People also will to factor in that their is a real chance that with a new PM and Chancellor, Sec State Def, and Foreign Sec in the next few weeks, there will likely be a change in posture and mood with regards to UK Defence spending and a push towards investing more in the Defence sector including shipbuilding than what has happened under the Blair-Brown-Cameron-May era.

That may have significant impact on both the Type 31 and Type 26. There may be greater certainty, with more vessels built.

If the Arrowhead 140 is selected and the second batch funded which has always been a possibility and if there was a reasonable level of UK Govt furnished equipment and capability (for example Tacticos, 997 Artisan, Sea Ceptor, 30mm DS30M, 2087 & 2050 Sonar, Mk 41 VLS and ExLS et al, committed to the program, then the Arrowhead has the potential to be a very capable surface combatant ....

2087 isn't going to be GFE for Type 31. All our 2087s will be going to Type 26, which will be able to use them better. Artisan & Sea Ceptor will be available from retiring T23 - for five T31. IIRC a few Artisan sets have been bought to cover the lag between one ship retiring & the radar becoming available for a new ship, so there'll be a few spares when the last T23s are retired - but Artisan will be rather long in the tooth by then. Sonar 2050? From what I've read, the eight T23s with 2087 have had their 2050 sonars updated to 2050 Technology Refresh, which IIRC is what 2150 used to be called, but not the other five. If those eight are going to T26, more would need to be bought for T31 to have it.

 

[StobieWan]

And then you'd have to add a warfare department to do anything with the data -let's keep 31e a useful, affordable GP frigate - which is what it could be if fitted with Sea Ceptor, Artisan and have some useful space inside it. Tacking on a TSA is bringing costs up and I suspect you'd be robbing from somewhere else to make that happen.

 

[OldNavy63]

Another informative article posted on Save the Royal Navy website:

Up close with the Royal Navy’s newest ship – HMS Medway | Save the Royal Navy

Completion of the second (of five), River Batch II OPV, HMS MEDWAY.

They look very roomy and are a li’l bit larger than the RAN’s new ARAFURA class OPVs. I spent my early days on an Attack class patrol boat and have fond /) memories in foul weather, scurrying from the galley, out onto the open deck and down the ladder to the JRs’ mess juggling my scran and brew, I am sure I will be very envious of our future OPV sailors.

 

[spoz]

The Rivers aren’t that much smaller than one of my first ships, a Type 15 Frigate, the mighty Queen Bee.