The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[StobieWan]

Who may already have hot production lines as well.

I'm sceptical that we'll see much in the way of orders from UK yards to be honest and it'd be perhaps better to concentrate on giving a steady and predictable stream of work to the existing military ship builders in the UK.

 

[swerve]

If it is a ship built with exports in mind I can see a few other issues with choosing a foreign design. Even if the licensing issues get sorted you would still essentially be competing for sales against the original builders.

The Arrowhead 140 no longer has an original builder. Odense Staalskibsværft ceased to exist seven years ago. The yard's been sold (sad - some of my ancestors were shipwrights in Odense 200 years ago) & now houses wind turbine parts makers, offshore support firms, etc. All that's left is a design house, the old design office of the shipbuilder, designing freighters, OPVs for Canada, etc..

 

[OldNavy63]

Type 31e Leander Updated Imagery.

From Save The Royal Navy:

BAE Systems issues updated imagery of Leander Type 31e Frigate concept | Save the Royal Navy

Let’s hope they just forgot to show the Harpoon launchers.

 

[Massive]

Type 31e Leander Updated Imagery.

Looks like a big expensive frigate.

Are there really going to be that significant savings over additional T26?

This program makes less and less sense to me.

Regards,

Massive

 

[John Fedup]

Looks like a big expensive frigate.

Are there really going to be that significant savings over additional T26?

This program makes less and less sense to me.

Regards,

Massive

Agree, why not just delete stuff off a T26? When it is realized how important the removed stuff really is, it can be put back in during a scheduled heavy maintenance dry docking.

 

[swerve]

Looks like a big expensive frigate.

Are there really going to be that significant savings over additional T26?

This program makes less and less sense to me.

Regards,

Massive

Half the displacement of a Type 26, & probably more cheaply built, so may well be cheaper per ton. The hull & propulsion system of a T26 would be much more expensive than a Leander hull & propulsion.

 

[John Fedup]

So this vessel is roughly 3,500-4000 tons? Is it diesel only? Wouldn't the RN be better off having 6 T31 ships dumped in favour of 2-3 T26s?

 

[40 deg south]

Arrowhead 140

Babcock have now put a lot more content on their Arrowhead 140 site.

This includes a nerd-tastic seven-minute talk about a model of the vessel from a couple of their senior staffers. Interestingly, one of them (the bid director?) has a down-under accent - Kiwi rather than Aussie to my biased ear. Well worth a look (and listen).

 

[MrConservative]

Arrowhead 140

Babcock have now put a lot more content on their Arrowhead 140 site.

This includes a nerd-tastic seven-minute talk about a model of the vessel from a couple of their senior staffers. Interestingly, one of them (the bid director?) has a down-under accent - Kiwi rather than Aussie to my biased ear. Well worth a look (and listen).

Mark Harvey is a ex RNZN Engineering Officer and looks very familiar to me though slightly older (aren't we all) and I have been trying to wrack my brains how.

 

[hauritz]

So this vessel is roughly 3,500-4000 tons? Is it diesel only? Wouldn't the RN be better off having 6 T31 ships dumped in favour of 2-3 T26s?

The original plan seemed to be that the new ships had to come in around a quarter of the cost of Type 26. Now that price ceiling has gone out the window I would be tempted to at least add the type 26 to the short list.

It may well be that when the various competitors are compared to a modified version of the type 26 may well prove to be better value than a type 31 ... even if it means fewer hulls.

 

[Ananda]

I saw an article few days ago, that raise a question on the need of Type 31 as being put in public for some time, the base argument for type 31 are:
1. Having relative low cost platform for RN to conduct duties on lower threats area,
2. Having design that economically competitive enough for Global export market to 'support' British yards job futures.

However the first argument increasingly getting higher In costs that some already calculate those five type 31 will cost in overall about 2-3 type 26. Which for economics sense better to have 2-3 more type 26 then continue with only 5 type 31.

The export arguments also increasingly being doubted as the leading candidates are based on Dermark and German design, which raise questions whether the original design owners will give the design IP rights to British yards for export market, considering they also looking for export opportunities too.

Based on those two arguments, I personally doubt the merit for Type 31 program. Increasingly RN seems should focus with Type 26, to gain their economics of scale in operating schemes.

 

[Redlands18]

I saw an article few days ago, that raise a question on the need of Type 31 as being put in public for some time, the base argument for type 31 are:
1. Having relative low cost platform for RN to conduct duties on lower threats area,
2. Having design that economically competitive enough for Global export market to 'support' British yards job futures.

However the first argument increasingly getting higher In costs that some already calculate those five type 31 will cost in overall about 2-3 type 26. Which for economics sense better to have 2-3 more type 26 then continue with only 5 type 31.

The export arguments also increasingly being doubted as the leading candidates are based on Dermark and German design, which raise questions whether the original design owners will give the design IP rights to British yards for export market, considering they also looking for export opportunities too.

Based on those two arguments, I personally doubt the merit for Type 31 program. Increasingly RN seems should focus with Type 26, to gain their economics of scale in operating schemes.

The problem with 2-3 Type 26 instead of 5 Type 31 is you are getting down to only 16-17 Escorts in total. Doesn’t matter how good the Type 26 is they can only be in one place at one time.

 

[Ananda]

The problem with 2-3 Type 26 instead of 5 Type 31 is you are getting down to only 16-17 Escorts in total. Doesn’t matter how good the Type 26 is they can only be in one place at one time.

But is it worth it to have 5 Type 31, when their costs keep increasing compared to their initial plan ? I know practically no military asset 'cost' is in the end match their initial plan. Most of them got inflated in the end.

However if it's not as much as saving toward type 26 as initially plan, then what's the point. If the costs move to practically double (as seems the way I see it on latest development) from initial estimate..then 3 'watered down' type 26 can be more beficial toward RN and British yards. With additional type 26 even with less standard, the industry can maintain the momentum for type 26.
This can put them on path evolve the design on future need (say batch 2 or 3).

As for numbers, using river class OPV design can be still pursue. It's only 2-3 needed to fill the gap, if those 5 type 31 being replaced by say 'watered down' 2-3 type 26.

Just my two cents

 

[MrConservative]

I always thought that GBP250m (USD$315m) per vessel was to quote Darryl Kerrigan "Your dreaming mate!!"

However if they can get a first batch of five reasonably capable Arrowhead 140's for around but not higher than GBP 2 Billion I think it is still a VfM proposition viz a detuned Type 26.

 

[Ananda]

However if they can get a first batch of five reasonably capable Arrowhead 140's for around but not higher than GBP 2 Billion I think it is still a VfM proposition viz a detuned Type 26.

That's another issue that keep me wondering. One of the supportive arguments that put on Type 31 is to support British yards for export market.

However Arrowhead 140 is based on Iver design that the Danish also heavily marketing in export market. The Danish offered the design to be build in local shipyards. At least that's what they offer to Indonesia, and seems also what they put with Singapore.

Thus how British yards will be benefit with a design that being matketing heavily by the dannish to be build in each respective customer shipyard ?

Agree on now the question is how much it will be costimg per ships to build. Just as comparison, the Danish offer budget of USD 750 mio to Indonesia to build two Iver based design Frigate in Surabaya PAL yards (just like previous two SIGMA 10514).

Based on how Indonesian procurement work so far, just like previous SIGMA 10514 project, it will be "fitted but not equip with" kind of project.
Thus USD 375 mio per ship on basic setup. Fully equiped it can rose up to USD 500 mio.

I don't know but based on that, fully equiped 5 arrowhead 140 I suspect can cost more than GBP 2 bio.

 

[StobieWan]

Looks like a big expensive frigate.

Are there really going to be that significant savings over additional T26?

This program makes less and less sense to me.

Regards,

Massive

Not really- Leander is a larger Khareef with much simpler and cheaper propulsion arrangements than T26 and without a lot of the rafting and isolation that the T26 has.

 

[swerve]

That's another issue that keep me wondering. One of the supportive arguments that put on Type 31 is to support British yards for export market.

However Arrowhead 140 is based on Iver design that the Danish also heavily marketing in export market. The Danish offered the design to be build in local shipyards. At least that's what they offer to Indonesia, and seems also what they put with Singapore.

Thus how British yards will be benefit with a design that being matketing heavily by the dannish to be build in each respective customer shipyard ?

I don't know but based on that, fully equiped 5 arrowhead 140 I suspect can cost more than GBP 2 bio.

The Danes have to offer the design to be built in local shipyards. They have no yards of their own for building frigates since Odense Staalskibsværft closed in 2012. OMT is a design & consultancy house, spun off from Odense Staalskibsværft before it closed. ...
.


Yes, the IP question is interesting. But . . . OMT hasn't sold a single frigate since its parent yard closed. It's probably interested in any deal which will make it money. A small royalty from any sales over & above five Arrowhead to the Royal Navy would be a lot better than nothing.

The Type 31 price is probably unrealistic, but a lot of equipment should be outside that price, taken from retiring Type 23s.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Which is probably why they are pushing the Type31e, its a proven good in water design with no yard to build them. With the Type 26 going up in size and spec, it is probably to much ship for those outside the bigger colonies to handle.

I think they would be pitching the Type 31e to countries like NZ (2-3?), Malaysia?, Arab countries (~6?), Brazil (~6?) etc. With most of those if not all of them being UK builds of at least the hulls. Indonesia would probably be interested in a local build, but that still adds a lot of support for the design, Indonesia doesn't have a huge high tech defense industry. UK Systems and upgrades will be available off the shelf, as the Danish ships aren't exactly fitted with kit that would suit a ship hitting the water 2025-2030. Uk would also have key information about moving kit from the type 22/23 and fitting that.

I still think more Type 26 is the better long term option. But if things work out, the Type31e project could be quite a successful project. But there is risk they could be building 5 of an orphan type, and no export sales.

 

[ngatimozart]

Which is probably why they are pushing the Type31e, its a proven good in water design with no yard to build them. With the Type 26 going up in size and spec, it is probably to much ship for those outside the bigger colonies to handle.

I think they would be pitching the Type 31e to countries like NZ (2-3?), Malaysia?, Arab countries (~6?), Brazil (~6?) etc. With most of those if not all of them being UK builds of at least the hulls. Indonesia would probably be interested in a local build, but that still adds a lot of support for the design, Indonesia doesn't have a huge high tech defense industry. UK Systems and upgrades will be available off the shelf, as the Danish ships aren't exactly fitted with kit that would suit a ship hitting the water 2025-2030. Uk would also have key information about moving kit from the type 22/23 and fitting that.

I still think more Type 26 is the better long term option. But if things work out, the Type31e project could be quite a successful project. But there is risk they could be building 5 of an orphan type, and no export sales.

If NZ liked the OMT F370 design on which the Arrowhead 140 is based, why would we involve Babcocks and not deal directly with OMT acquiring a license from them? Cut the middleman out have the ship designed to our specs. Probably less risky because we wouldn't have to be concerned about any pommy "improvements" which generally tend to be costly and time consuming, especially after the RN and MOD get their hands on the design.

 

[oldsig127]

If NZ liked the OMT F370 design on which the Arrowhead 140 is based, why would we involve Babcocks and not deal directly with OMT acquiring a license from them? Cut the middleman out have the ship designed to our specs. Probably less risky because we wouldn't have to be concerned about any pommy "improvements" which generally tend to be costly and time consuming, especially after the RN and MOD get their hands on the design.

Indeed. So who would you have build them, bearing in mind that they'd be an orphan class rather than one similar to the T31 (should it go that way)? I'm not sure that RNZN is a big enough outfit any longer to wear the risks alone

oldsig