Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[aussienscale]

Great! still painted grey, twice the area to be covered in exhaust soot which is almost impossible to clean.
We learned the lesson with the CFAs where everything above the funnel was painted black but this lesson seems to be lost.
You can’t argue that black effects the radar because they end up black anyway.
Rant off!

Spent many hours aloft alongside touching up the mast on Hobart, thing was we only really painted ship side up to the black, the rest was looked after naturally by the stacks to keep the black looking nice and fresh

 

[ASSAIL]

Paint scheme is decided by engineers in the project then the spo, it's not up to anyone with practical experience unless they can get a seat on a CDR or similar.

Someone should wander over to FBW and look at the Anzacs alongside, that pergola is a disgrace, looks like third world bum boats.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Surprised no-one has reported on the Government's announcement of a new large amphibious vessel for Navy.
Is being purchased to improve Australia's ability to respond to events in the South Pacific, natural disasters etc.
No details on type, exact size, who is going to manufacture it etc.

The Age
Christopher Pyne promises new ship in 'pivot' to the south Pacific

David Wroe9 November 2018 — 12:00am

The Morrison government is pledging to build a large, new naval ship that will cruise the south Pacific and help Australia’s neighbours deal with natural disasters as part of what is being seen as Australia’s "pivot" to the neighbouring region.

Fairfax Media can also reveal that the planned redevelopment of the Manus Island naval base in Papua New Guinea is widely seen within the government as having a longer-term strategic potential to allow Australian ships and even aircraft to project power well into the Pacific, where China is increasingly contesting the United States' traditional dominance.

Mr Pyne did not disclose how much it would cost nor where and when it would be built. But it would be a new vessel.

"This Pacific step-up expansion is one of the most significant decisions of the Morrison government so far and one of the most important ramp ups of our engagement in the south Pacific because it’s multidimensional,” Mr Pyne told Fairfax Media.
It included police assistance, a diplomatic expansion and a "very large component is the defence ramp-up of activity", he said.

"Australia has a particular responsibility for the south-west Pacific, and the rest of the world, particularly our allies and friends, expect Australia, being the largest economic power in the region, to assist the south-west Pacific countries … to protect themselves from illegal fishing, the infringement of their economic rights, potential people-smuggling, unbridled environmental damage," Mr Pyne said.


Asked whether the new focus was aimed at combating Chinese influence, Mr Pyne said: "We recognise that we have the largest economic heft in the region and that means we have a particular responsibility to work with the south-west Pacific family … on security for the region.

 

[ASSAIL]

Surprised no-one has reported on the Government's announcement of a new large amphibious vessel for Navy.
Is being purchased to improve Australia's ability to respond to events in the South Pacific, natural disasters etc.
No details on type, exact size, who is going to manufacture it etc.

This is a tad confusing. Maybe Pyne is referring to the “Large hull multi purpose patrol vessel listed at page 65 of the 2016 IIP? That’s due within the next few years although that could also mean Ocean Protector?

 

[hauritz]

Surprised no-one has reported on the Government's announcement of a new large amphibious vessel for Navy.
Is being purchased to improve Australia's ability to respond to events in the South Pacific, natural disasters etc.
No details on type, exact size, who is going to manufacture it etc.

Seems out of the blue. There was mention of either a new logistics ship or tanker in the white paper. That ship was scheduled for around the mid 20s. Perhaps this is the vessel they were describing.

 

[Redlands18]

Seems out of the blue. There was mention of either a new logistics ship or tanker in the white paper. That ship was scheduled for around the mid 20s. Perhaps this is the vessel they were describing.

Though it would make some sense in the current climate to add a 4th Large Amphib, maybe order 2 under the same Project, the 2nd being the Ship mentioned in the DWP/IIP and the first being an extra ship.
Though actually @MARKMILES77 it actually says Large Naval Ship in the report you have put up, doesn't actually mention Amphib so it could be a number of different Ship types.

 

[hauritz]

Though it would make some sense in the current climate to add a 4th Large Amphib, maybe order 2 under the same Project, the 2nd being the Ship mentioned in the DWP/IIP and the first being an extra ship.
Though actually @MARKMILES77 it actually says Large Naval Ship in the report you have put up, doesn't actually mention Amphib so it could be a number of different Ship types.

On reading the story it does sound more like a new ship that was not mentioned in the white paper.

It sounds like it might be in response to government concerns about Chinese activity in the South Pacific. A permanent humanitarian and disaster relief vessel would ensure that Australia would be first responders to any disaster in the South West Pacific. An area which currently seems to be of interest to the Chinese.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Though it would make some sense in the current climate to add a 4th Large Amphib, maybe order 2 under the same Project, the 2nd being the Ship mentioned in the DWP/IIP and the first being an extra ship.
Though actually @MARKMILES77 it actually says Large Naval Ship in the report you have put up, doesn't actually mention Amphib so it could be a number of different Ship types.

Yes, impossible to know exactly what they are referring to.
But we do know that it must have the ability to provide disaster relief. That implies the ability to carry cargo/containers probably on trucks and the ability to get them ashore. Now many Islands in the South Pacific have no harbour facilities of any kind. So the ability to unload onto the beach would be very desirable.Also likely a helicopter capability.
We also know it is "Large" but we don't know what they mean by large.
Pure speculation I know, but could be an opportunity for Navy to partially replace the LCH capability lost with a vessel with an over the beach capability.
A modern "General Frank S Besson Class" or Damen equivalent although at 4,000 tonnes maybe that is not what they mean by "Large"?

 

[hauritz]

Yes, impossible to know exactly what they are referring to.
But we do know that it must have the ability to provide disaster relief. That implies the ability to carry cargo/containers probably on trucks and the ability to get them ashore. Now many Islands in the South Pacific have no harbour facilities of any kind. So the ability to unload onto the beach would be very desirable.Also likely a helicopter capability.
We also know it is "Large" but we don't know what they mean by large.
Pure speculation I know, but could be an opportunity for Navy to partially replace the LCH capability lost with a vessel with an over the beach capability.
A modern "General Frank S Besson Class" or Damen equivalent although at 4,000 tonnes maybe that is not what they mean by "Large"?View attachment 46294

This could be related to Australia's seemingly abandoned plans to replace its fleet of LCH vessels. Australia really does need a ship capable of over the beach operations but larger, and more capable than the Balikpapan class. Something in the 4000 tonne range would seem to be around the size they should be looking at. It would seem the vessel they want is specifically for HADR purposes so I don't imagine you would need something any larger than that.

 

[MARKMILES77]

This could be related to Australia's seemingly abandoned plans to replace its fleet of LCH vessels. Australia really does need a ship capable of over the beach operations but larger, and more capable than the Balikpapan class. Something in the 4000 tonne range would seem to be around the size they should be looking at. It would seem the vessel they want is specifically for HADR purposes so I don't imagine you would need something any larger than that.

Another possibility is a small LPD like the Damen Enforcer 7,000. 7000 tonne, total crew of only 90 but no direct over the beach capability.

Amphibious transport, disaster relief, helicopter operations, evacuation operations, operation support, maintenance support, joint operations command, training

Ship Stores Cargo/Ammo


1 x Deck crane 25t
2 x LCVP in Davits 2 x fast RHIBCargo hatch

2 spots medium size helicopter (NH-90 o.e.)
1 spot suitable for heavy helicopter (Chinook o.e.) 2 x medium size helicopter
2 x LCM-1706 or equivalent

Flight Deck 1200 m2
RO/RO 400 lane meters 1000 m2

Cargo 100 m2
Ammunition 165 m2

70t stern ramp
50t side ramp
121.00 m
7850 tonnes

16-20 knots
>6000 nm
30+ days at sea crew only
15+ days at sea with full complement

ACCOMMODATION

Air-conditioned spaces for 90 crew and 375 embarked marine forces (troops), consisting of cabins, stores, galley, mess rooms and sanitary spaces.

MEDICAL FACILITIES

Role 1, examination room, sickbay fitted for 6 patients and dentistry facilities.

 

[John Newman]

On reading the story it does sound more like a new ship that was not mentioned in the white paper.

It sounds like it might be in response to government concerns about Chinese activity in the South Pacific. A permanent humanitarian and disaster relief vessel would ensure that Australia would be first responders to any disaster in the South West Pacific. An area which currently seems to be of interest to the Chinese.

Agree.

I think this is all tied into the new Morrison Governments "step-up to the Pacific" initiative, and making announcements ahead of the APEC 2018 PNG Summit starting in a week or so.

Scott Morrison splashes cash in the Pacific as China fears loom

Money for infrastructure, upgrades to Manus Island naval base, the delivery of the first of the new Pacific Patrol Boats to PNG and now this announcement too.

As to what the 'new large ship' will be, well that's probably a question that doesn't have a clear answer as yet, but I could imagine something along the lines of this:

Landing Ship Transport 120

A ship along the lines of the Damen LST 120 (or larger, such as a variant of the Enforcer LPDs) could easily be built in WA or SA, which politically is also good 'news' for the Morrison Government too.

With the Federal election only six months away, watch this space!

Cheers,

 

[oldsig127]

On reading the story it does sound more like a new ship that was not mentioned in the white paper.

It sounds like it might be in response to government concerns about Chinese activity in the South Pacific. A permanent humanitarian and disaster relief vessel would ensure that Australia would be first responders to any disaster in the South West Pacific. An area which currently seems to be of interest to the Chinese.

This is the sense I got out of the announcement which was telecast on ABC24. It's also what the stories published today say - allowance being made for the usual journalistic ineptitude around defence - where none mention the DWP, IIP or any other previous justification.

I agree that this appears to be a reaction to the Chinese activity in the Pacific and hope that it means an extra ship rather than a co-opting of one previously foreshadowed to become instead a Navy crewed mobile Emergency Service depot.

oldsig

 

[StingrayOZ]

My hope is for a 3rd LHD. When someone says large to me that means of the biggest size. How do you describe LHD or the new Icebreaker, extra large.

Something 4,000-10,000 could be built locally.

But it could even be a converted civilian ship, HMAS DFAT.
There does seem to be formulating a more cohesive plan regarding the pacific and the new pacific base.

Choules is eventually going to be replaced. There is significant interest in the region.

Australia really wants to take an active role in the region. So a ship with permanent presence, based in the region.

 

[oldsig127]

As to what the 'new large ship' will be, well that's probably a question that doesn't have a clear answer as yet, but I could imagine something along the lines of this:

Landing Ship Transport 120

A ship along the lines of the Damen LST 120 (or larger, such as a variant of the Enforcer LPDs) could easily be built in WA or SA, which politically is also good 'news' for the Morrison Government too.

Personally I wouldn't call that a "large ship" by any measure and expect it'd garner him a fair amount of ridicule rather than approbation.

(Though I really think we need to look at something like this around replacing the LCH capability)

I'll be betting on something with a 10k displacement or larger, but not until after they release a lot more details, This could be at least in part a political brain exhalation which has not yet had the degree of professional oversight it needs because of the political need to announce it around APEC

oldsig

 

[John Newman]

Personally I wouldn't call that a "large ship" by any measure and expect it'd garner him a fair amount of ridicule rather than approbation.

(Though I really think we need to look at something like this around replacing the LCH capability)

I'll be betting on something with a 10k displacement or larger, but not until after they release a lot more details, This could be at least in part a political brain exhalation which has not yet had the degree of professional oversight it needs because of the political need to announce it around APEC

oldsig

Well I did say "or larger, such as a variant of the Enforcer LPDs"

 

[Richo99]

Based on the specific role of HADR, with no mention of any military role, I suspect some of the higher end navel vessels are not going to be considered. Back in the days immediately post decomissioning of Bill and Ben, Ocean Protector (or Shield??) had the role of local HADR for a season or two, at a cost far less then what I would expect an Enforcer or LST120 to cost.

I do wonder if the Aus Gov will take this opportunity to throw Austal a bone (post their OPV disappointment) and order something along the lines of the USNs expeditionary fast transport which the USN has used in a similar role.

USNS Spearhead deploys for Southern Partnership Station

 

[Redlands18]

Another possibility is a small LPD like the Damen Enforcer 7,000. 7000 tonne, total crew of only 90 but no direct over the beach capability.

Amphibious transport, disaster relief, helicopter operations, evacuation operations, operation support, maintenance support, joint operations command, training

Ship Stores Cargo/Ammo


1 x Deck crane 25t
2 x LCVP in Davits 2 x fast RHIBCargo hatch

2 spots medium size helicopter (NH-90 o.e.)
1 spot suitable for heavy helicopter (Chinook o.e.) 2 x medium size helicopter
2 x LCM-1706 or equivalent

Flight Deck 1200 m2
RO/RO 400 lane meters 1000 m2

Cargo 100 m2
Ammunition 165 m2

70t stern ramp
50t side ramp
121.00 m
7850 tonnes

16-20 knots
>6000 nm
30+ days at sea crew only
15+ days at sea with full complement

ACCOMMODATION

Air-conditioned spaces for 90 crew and 375 embarked marine forces (troops), consisting of cabins, stores, galley, mess rooms and sanitary spaces.

MEDICAL FACILITIES

Role 1, examination room, sickbay fitted for 6 patients and dentistry facilities.

View attachment 46295

 

[Redlands18]

please disregard my Post for some strange reason the typing box wouldn't load

 

[Redlands18]

Based on the specific role of HADR, with no mention of any military role, I suspect some of the higher end navel vessels are not going to be considered. Back in the days immediately post decomissioning of Bill and Ben, Ocean Protector (or Shield??) had the role of local HADR for a season or two, at a cost far less then what I would expect an Enforcer or LST120 to cost.

I do wonder if the Aus Gov will take this opportunity to throw Austal a bone (post their OPV disappointment) and order something along the lines of the USNs expeditionary fast transport which the USN has used in a similar role.

USNS Spearhead deploys for Southern Partnership Station

The cost of an Enforcer will depend on how much high end Military equipment you are going to put into it. It is not that expensive to build a large Ship however it is to build a large Warship. If all you want is a Ship to deliver HADR than you could probably get a 20,000t Ship built to Commercial standards with a crew of less than 30 relatively cheaply. The Australian Ship would be more about carrying a large load and staying in place for a while than speed(got the C-17s for that)
There are actually 2 Ocean class Ships, Ocean Protector & Ocean Shield operated as ADV Ships with Civilian Crews. One of them was operated by the Navy due to the earlier then expected Decommissioning of Bill & Ben and the LHDs not yet complete.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I wonder if they have something like an Australian version of Chinese hospital ship Daishan Dao - Wikipedia or USNS Mercy (T-AH-19) - Wikipedia or RFA Argus (A135) - Wikipedia

Peace ark is the sort of capability Australia would probably want to displace regionally. Something with significant capability and presence.