Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Redlands18]

I think what we could be looking at here is a Vessel that could spend anything up to 6 months a year away from home visiting the Pacific Islands, PNG, Timor even up as far as the Philippines so a high degree of Self reliance will be req. Armament/CMS same as the OPVs, A high top speed wont be important but Range and a decent Cruising speed will be. Certainly the ability to Launch & recover a couple of LCMs will be req. A large Hanger/Mission Bay/Cargo Bay, a decent size Medical facility with the ability to expand it at short notice. Min Accommodation for 200 extra on top of the normal Crew.
Main Wartime use would be as a dedicated Hospital Ship(though Armament would have to be removed)

 

[StingrayOZ]

If Manus upgrades to the port and airport would allow LHD operations and E7/P8...
I could imagine G550, BBJ, even possibly Superhornets and UUV might be able to operate there as well.

If that is the case, really there isn't going to be a huge need to fly anything else off the LHD's. Even with the Pacific ship, I think the LHD will still be a huge presence in the region. But it more clearly separates humanitarian from military. With the pacific ship, they could schedule surgical operations, regular visits, training activities with hospitals across the region, etc. That is basically impossible with the LHD's currently because of the demands put on them.

 

[ngatimozart]

If Manus upgrades to the port and airport would allow LHD operations and E7/P8...
I could imagine G550, BBJ, even possibly Superhornets and UUV might be able to operate there as well.

If that is the case, really there isn't going to be a huge need to fly anything else off the LHD's. Even with the Pacific ship, I think the LHD will still be a huge presence in the region. But it more clearly separates humanitarian from military. With the pacific ship, they could schedule surgical operations, regular visits, training activities with hospitals across the region, etc. That is basically impossible with the LHD's currently because of the demands put on them.

Momote Airport currently has a 6,136 long runway and its elevation is 4 m (12ft) AMSL (Above Mean Sea Level) which places it in the danger zone for sea level rise. As you can see from the attached image, the surrounding area appears to be reasonably low lying. 4 m sounds a lot when sea level rise of 1 m is suggested, but that is mean sea level and when tides, storm surges tsunami etc., are factored in that 4 m is quickly reduced.

 

[t68]

Why a SPOT and why a conversion noting conversions are quite expensive..... They are designed for short haul high speed RO PAX operations and rely on dedicated infrastructure to load and unload. They are very expensive to run but admittedly can operate in worse conditions than the HSC craft some are mooting.

From a HADR perspective they:
1. Cannot operate helos on an ongoing basis and the helo spot is only design for passenger medical evacuation.
2. Cannot operate in areas without port infrastructure (noting a natural disaster normally has an impact on this and most pacific islands have a paucity of such infrastructure in any case)
3. Have no comprehensive medical facilities nor the connective structures to allow casualties to be dealt with.
4. They are bloody old and do not comply with upcoming MARPOL air emission requirements (and making them comply will not be simple) and have been very hard run.

All in all a conversion of SPOT I and II would give you a very compromised vessels with very limited life..... and the conversion would be very expensive ... so a purpose built ... or more suitable base vessel would be a better option.

I simply mentioned this as they have not said if it was going to be a commissioned ship or not, but I do see where you are coming from if it was a complementary vessel to Choules, but as a ship for soft power I'm not sure if it will require all the bells and whistles for beaching etc

modifying a cruise ship into a hospital ship wouldn't be all that hard after all if you look at the majority of hospital ships the majority started life as cruise ships. A ro/pax such as the Spirt of Tasmania if it became a commissioned ship could also become a strategic sealift ship as secondary capability, from memory Tobruk 70% of the time made use of port faculties to off load it also to note that they were talking new build not converting.

Mercy Ships: MV Atlantic Mercy due in 2018

 

[spoz]

As someone who has spent more time than he ever wanted to on Manus, though now many years ago.....

The airstrip is already B737 capable. To extend it you would have to build into the mangrove swamps. Seadler Harbour is enormous.

While it pours with rain in the wet, and is always uncomfortable from a temperature perspective (it’s only 2 degrees from the equator) the general weather is benign, it’s in the doldrums and there are few serious storms although plenty of lightning and thunder at times. Think Singapore without any development. The airstrip can become slick in the wet (it was made of crushed coral when I was there) but I don’t remember it ever being out of action.

Nor has Momote been effected by the seismic activity of the New Britain/Karkar area as it is in essence protected by off lying islands.

 

[John Newman]

And @Christopher Pyne promises new ship in 'pivot' to the south Pacific
I wonder if this means a commissioned ship in the RAN or something like a MV Sycamore operated vessel?

There are lots of questions with this announcement, but not many answers, other than if the Fairfax media report is correct in that the ship mentioned by the Def Min will be 'large' and 'new'.

New build is reasonably clear, large is more of, how long is a piece of string?

If the new ship is built overseas, then yes it can be any size we want and any design we want (money is the only limiting factor), but in the current political climate (a new Morrison Government and an election a max of six months away), I'd suggest that the new Government will want to maximise all the potential benefits from this project.

If things don't change around dramatically between now and the next election, then Shorten will be the next PM (God forbid), so I would think that the current Government will not only want to be seen as good neighbours for our Pacific friends, but also want to provide employment in Oz (Jobs! Jobs! Jobs! winning one or two marginal seats in critical electorates could be the difference of being in Government or Opposition for the next three years).

Assuming that the new HMAS Pacific Reach (for a better name) is built here in Oz, then that will certainly limit the ship size and build location.

Using HMAS Choules as an example of 'displacement/size' (she is approx. 16,000t), with the current infrastructure at both Osborne SA and Henderson WA, the max displacement that is able to be launched is somewhere between 10,000t and 12,000t.

Here is some info on the current (and planned) capabilities of both the facilities:

Henderson PDF:

https://www.australianmarinecomplex.com.au/sites/default/files/inline-files/1.1-AMCCUF-eBrochure_2016_Web_0.pdf

Osborne PDF:

https://www.asc.com.au/assets/downloads/CD4067_ShipbuildingCapability_A4_4pp_CMYK_%C6%92_LR_FINAL.pdf

Osborne upgrade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nUZZBG0KXA&t=41s

Henderson upgrade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQHhZ8o7YvI&t=2s


So even with all of the above upgrades (which are focused on Frigates and OPVs in their respective build locations), I would imagine that at the very least there would have to be a further enlargement of hardstands and transfer systems, which of course also cost more money and to stay within the limits of the capacities of the shiplift in SA and floating dock in WA. A ship of the size of HMAS Choules (16,000t) would also require the shiplift and floating dock to be increased in capacity too.

If the new ship (built in Oz) was to be something along the lines of a Damen Enforcer, it would have to be one of the smaller designs, LPD 7000, 8000 or probably the 9000 at the max.

Landing Platform Dock for strategic transport and amphibious operations

Anyway, all speculation on my part, but if the new ship is built here, then there will be limitations as to size without spending buckets on money on substantial infrastructure upgrades too.

Cheers,

 

[Redlands18]

There are lots of questions with this announcement, but not many answers, other than if the Fairfax media report is correct in that the ship mentioned by the Def Min will be 'large' and 'new'.

New build is reasonably clear, large is more of, how long is a piece of string?

If the new ship is built overseas, then yes it can be any size we want and any design we want (money is the only limiting factor), but in the current political climate (a new Morrison Government and an election a max of six months away), I'd suggest that the new Government will want to maximise all the potential benefits from this project.

If things don't change around dramatically between now and the next election, then Shorten will be the next PM (God forbid), so I would think that the current Government will not only want to be seen as good neighbours for our Pacific friends, but also want to provide employment in Oz (Jobs! Jobs! Jobs! winning one or two marginal seats in critical electorates could be the difference of being in Government or Opposition for the next three years).

Assuming that the new HMAS Pacific Reach (for a better name) is built here in Oz, then that will certainly limit the ship size and build location.

Using HMAS Choules as an example of 'displacement/size' (she is approx. 16,000t), with the current infrastructure at both Osborne SA and Henderson WA, the max displacement that is able to be launched is somewhere between 10,000t and 12,000t.

Here is some info on the current (and planned) capabilities of both the facilities:

Henderson PDF:

https://www.australianmarinecomplex.com.au/sites/default/files/inline-files/1.1-AMCCUF-eBrochure_2016_Web_0.pdf

Osborne PDF:

https://www.asc.com.au/assets/downloads/CD4067_ShipbuildingCapability_A4_4pp_CMYK_%C6%92_LR_FINAL.pdf

Osborne upgrade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nUZZBG0KXA&t=41s

Henderson upgrade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQHhZ8o7YvI&t=2s


So even with all of the above upgrades (which are focused on Frigates and OPVs in their respective build locations), I would imagine that at the very least there would have to be a further enlargement of hardstands and transfer systems, which of course also cost more money and to stay within the limits of the capacities of the shiplift in SA and floating dock in WA. A ship of the size of HMAS Choules (16,000t) would also require the shiplift and floating dock to be increased in capacity too.

If the new ship (built in Oz) was to be something along the lines of a Damen Enforcer, it would have to be one of the smaller designs, LPD 7000, 8000 or probably the 9000 at the max.

Landing Platform Dock for strategic transport and amphibious operations

Anyway, all speculation on my part, but if the new ship is built here, then there will be limitations as to size without spending buckets on money on substantial infrastructure upgrades too.

Cheers,

Order a class of 2 Enforcers(2nd is the Ship forecast in the IIP) built at Osborn fitted out individually might be worth the cost of the upgrades. The timing for the 2nd Ship would be about right.

 

[t68]

@John Newman with the above,
I cant see them expanding the facilities to build a one off, but we seem to be doing a lot of one offs overseas of late thru the Damen group and DMS Maritime (Serco) such as MV Sycamore & Antarctic Supply Research Vessel (ASRV) (don't think its been named yet) I guess it all depends on the budget given. I believe this is a good idea for the foreign aid budget.

 

[alexsa]

I simply mentioned this as they have not said if it was going to be a commissioned ship or not, but I do see where you are coming from if it was a complementary vessel to Choules, but as a ship for soft power I'm not sure if it will require all the bells and whistles for beaching etc

modifying a cruise ship into a hospital ship wouldn't be all that hard after all if you look at the majority of hospital ships the majority started life as cruise ships. A ro/pax such as the Spirt of Tasmania if it became a commissioned ship could also become a strategic sealift ship as secondary capability, from memory Tobruk 70% of the time made use of port faculties to off load it also to note that they were talking new build not converting.

Mercy Ships: MV Atlantic Mercy due in 2018

Tobruk may have but she still had the ability to land over a beach. The LPA’s, LHD’s and Choules all used there embarked craft and aviation vacilites in the situations they have been placed in. You assume there will be port facilities in the places te vessel may be sent but remember the last HADR response included going to remote islands that lacked such facilities ..... and there are a hell of a lot of these in our area of interest,

Mercy ships use port facilities that are precooked much of the time ... and yes they are a conversion .... but this assumes this is what the ship is for. There is a hell of a lot of speculation based on very little information.

I suggest the excitement needs to be subdued until more information is forthcoming,

 

[alexsa]

@John Newman with the above,
I cant see them expanding the facilities to build a one off, but we seem to be doing a lot of one offs overseas of late thru the Damen group and DMS Maritime (Serco) such as MV Sycamore & Antarctic Supply Research Vessel (ASRV) (don't think its been named yet) I guess it all depends on the budget given. I believe this is a good idea for the foreign aid budget.

The AAD ice breaker/research vessels has been named and this has been announced. Details are here

Australia's new icebreaker - RSV Nuyina

The contract and purchase process for the two submarine rescue vessels and the MATV (Sycamore) is separate and completely different to the AAD contact so you cannot draw too many conclusions there. As an aside DMS is no longer involved with Sycamore. Further the Sycamore and Besant and Stoker are not owned by defence but by the NAB (you can check this by looking at the list of ships on the Australian Register and asking for a Serco of the register ... you have to pay for that, but trust me ... that is the case).

If the new ship is to be a naval vessel in the same manner as the current large vessels then any previous business will mean not one jot as it will be their response to the RFT that will decide it (remember Damen missed out on the OPV). If the vessel is to be an auxiliary then maybe ,,, who knows.

Again ...... there appears to be insufficient information to really draw any conclusions unless more has been released recently.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Don't know if it is co-incidence or not but the Damen Enforcer 9000 brochure shows Bushmasters on the Vehicle deck.

 

[oldsig127]

Don't know if it is co-incidence or not but the Damen Enforcer 9000 brochure shows Bushmasters on the Vehicle deck.View attachment 46301

I would be surprised if it didn't. The Dutch Army uses Bushmasters

oldsig

 

[hauritz]

And @Christopher Pyne promises new ship in 'pivot' to the south Pacific
I wonder if this means a commissioned ship in the RAN or something like a MV Sycamore operated vessel?

I wonder if the RAN would even want responsibility for this ship. Not only would they have to find a crew but they would also have to deal with a ship full of civilian aid workers who would expect accommodation and facilities more akin to a cruise ship than a warship.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Personally I don't think it (the pacific ship) will be built here. I feel this needs to happen quickly, not in 7 years time. Which is why I would tend to favor Choules, as it is a rabbit out of a hat. I think the government is fine with the current local production schedule and build numbers. WA isn't even a finished yard yet.

But I do think expansion of the Osbornes facilities would be worth while. Particularly if Australia was to operate more large ships. But that will take time.

RSV Nuyina build is moving along quite quickly.

I think how this new ship will operate is one of the big questions. I could definitely see some sort of civilian arrangement, perhaps with ADF staff embarking time to time to help out. More as liaisons than anything else. Think of it as a floating DFAT more than an ADF asset. Health, Law, Police, commerce, trade, HDAR, medical. I see this ship being more complex than just a medical mission. Our relationship with the Pacific is much more complex than that.

The LHD's will still exist, but won't be burdened with being tied up carrying with a massive on going civilian humanitarian mission. There are very valid and priority security issues in the South Pacific, they must be made available for those missions.

Of course it also highlights the limited number of ships, and as big as they are their limits in capability. Now we have the LHD's, its not as if we aren't finding them useful. Plus the US availability is under huge pressure as well. There is a greater call for this type of capability than when we first got them. Rimpac showed how things are fraying, when the Americans didn't have all the assets that they thought they would had.

Of course we could hit up some of the Pacific colonials for some metal to help us on this mission. Looking through UK/French/Euro/Japan inventories, there might be something we could strike a pretty good deal, in all of our interests, for a good and worthy cause. When countering China, no one said it had to be Australia doing it all alone, just that we lead it in our small patch.

 

[Pusser01]

The AAD ice breaker/research vessels has been named and this has been announced. Details are here

Australia's new icebreaker - RSV Nuyina

The contract and purchase process for the two submarine rescue vessels and the MATV (Sycamore) is separate and completely different to the AAD contact so you cannot draw too many conclusions there. As an aside DMS is no longer involved with Sycamore. Further the Sycamore and Besant and Stoker are not owned by defence but by the NAB (you can check this by looking at the list of ships on the Australian Register and asking for a Serco of the register ... you have to pay for that, but trust me ... that is the case).

If the new ship is to be a naval vessel in the same manner as the current large vessels then any previous business will mean not one jot as it will be their response to the RFT that will decide it (remember Damen missed out on the OPV). If the vessel is to be an auxiliary then maybe ,,, who knows.

Again ...... there appears to be insufficient information to really draw any conclusions unless more has been released recently.

Hi Alexsa, I was wondering if you know how ADV Ocean Protector is run by Defence? Is it owned by the ADF but crewed & maintained by civilians, with Defence providing boarding & comms parties. If so is the ABFC Ocean Shield also run along a similar program, Cheers.

 

[Systems Adict]

And @Christopher Pyne promises new ship in 'pivot' to the south Pacific
I wonder if this means a commissioned ship in the RAN or something like a MV Sycamore operated vessel?

I like the idea of perhaps a HMAS Jervis Bay III a HMAS Jervis Bay (GT203) replacement using some like the MS Sprit of Tasmania II in role like HMS Argus and used in a mixture of used a mixture of PCRS/troop/vehicle/training ship.

Considering the capacity of a fast RO/PAX ferry such as Sprit of Tasmania, 1,400 passengers, 750 berths, 1,000 cars and a 1,852 lane meters,

• Decks 1 to 6 are used to hold cars and trucks. The for-end of Decks 1 and 2 are accessed via a ramp from deck 3 (The Aft-end space of the two decks houses the ships machinery). Deck 6 holds cars using a hoistable platform.

• Deck 7 has cabins, a reception area, small movie theater, lounge bar, gaming lounge, gift shop, tourism bureau, main bar, two restaurants and a children's playroom.

• Deck 8 has cabins and an ocean recliner area.

• Deck 9 is mainly crew area.

• Deck 10 has a bar and disco area.

• Deck 11 has a helicopter landing pad.

I wonder what a new build would cost modified for PCRS/troops etc

On a side note HMS Argus is due for replacement soon wonder if the RAN/RN have the same needs if building newe could there be scoop for a joint programme to make it cheaper for both nations?

Apologies, this is OFF on a complete Tangent...

I thought the name was familiar when I read this on Friday & with it being remembrance Sunday, I thought I'd share...

CDR Salamander: Fullbore Friday

 

[alexsa]

Hi Alexsa, I was wondering if you know how ADV Ocean Protector is run by Defence? Is it owned by the ADF but crewed & maintained by civilians, with Defence providing boarding & comms parties. If so is the ABFC Ocean Shield also run along a similar program, Cheers.

It is operated as a Naval Auxiliary. The vessel is under full beneficial control of defence with manning provided by an agency. It is a new thing for Australian defence and is not quite RFA (not backed up any any specific legislation) and a little similar to USNS. I suspect we may see more of this.

 

[Flexson]

I simply mentioned this as they have not said if it was going to be a commissioned ship or not, but I do see where you are coming from if it was a complementary vessel to Choules, but as a ship for soft power I'm not sure if it will require all the bells and whistles for beaching etc

modifying a cruise ship into a hospital ship wouldn't be all that hard after all if you look at the majority of hospital ships the majority started life as cruise ships. A ro/pax such as the Spirt of Tasmania if it became a commissioned ship could also become a strategic sealift ship as secondary capability, from memory Tobruk 70% of the time made use of port faculties to off load it also to note that they were talking new build not converting.

Mercy Ships: MV Atlantic Mercy due in 2018

I was on Tobruk for over 8 years and we used port facilities when ever they were available, which was almost never when conducting HADR style deployments. I was onboard for OP Samoa/Tonga Assist, Pacific Partnership 2010, Pacific Partnership 2013 and OP Philippines Assist. During those deployments we were able to use port facilities at Apia, Nuku'alofa and Cebu. At the little Tongan Islands and at Dilli, Port Moresby, Rabaul, Pulau Tioman, Wewak, Vanimo, Ormoc and the little islands villages between Cebu and Ormoc we projected ashore with LCM-8, LCVP, LARC, RHIB and when we had one the embarked Helo. I would count the ability to project ashore without port facilities important.

 

[Jack Wyatt]

There are lots of questions with this announcement, but not many answers, other than if the Fairfax media report is correct in that the ship mentioned by the Def Min will be 'large' and 'new'.

New build is reasonably clear, large is more of, how long is a piece of string?

If the new ship is built overseas, then yes it can be any size we want and any design we want (money is the only limiting factor), but in the current political climate (a new Morrison Government and an election a max of six months away), I'd suggest that the new Government will want to maximise all the potential benefits from this project.

If things don't change around dramatically between now and the next election, then Shorten will be the next PM (God forbid), so I would think that the current Government will not only want to be seen as good neighbours for our Pacific friends, but also want to provide employment in Oz (Jobs! Jobs! Jobs! winning one or two marginal seats in critical electorates could be the difference of being in Government or Opposition for the next three years).

Ship of fools, with Morrison at the helm.. Question being of course how many changes of conservative PMs will there be before Christmas?

I guess being an idea of the current government, it will be coal fired and built in China.

Seem to recall a US President remarking on a pivot to Asia.​

 

[old faithful]

I would have thought something similar to Tobruk would have been a nice to have to compliment the Canberra's and Choules.
Maybe a Damon LST 120?