Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Redlands18]

I suspect that the OPVs will be the testbeds for new technologies while the Huons will more or less be there as cover until they are replaced in the 2030s.

Yes they are going to be very busy Ships, their superior capabilities will mean a wider range of jobs over that of the Armidale class. I would not be surprised if the number increases in a few years time. The original Armidale purchase was only 12 then later increased to 14.
Not being a Warship with true Offensive capabilities they would be an easier sell to a Government then say extra Frigates would. Things like Pacific Island support and HADR Missions which were simply out of the question for an Armidale is something I can see the OPVs doing.

 

[oldsig127]

That is a very interesting Link to the Navy site, because it actually says the OPV80 will replace the Armidale & Cape class(2 Navy ones), Huon Class, Leeuwin Class and the AGSC a total of 26 Ships. Rudd's original DWP actually called for 20 OPVs. 12 OPVs surely can't be expected to replace 26 Ships, simply not enough Hulls to do the Tasks.

It says that the OPVs will replace all those ships. It does NOT say that the initial 12 OPVs will replace all of them. Indeed, the continuous ship building plan includes a tranche of vessels to replace the other small fleet units when the 12 OPVs are finished and before it rolls into their replacement. Navy is not stupid - the OPV hull, or indeed an evolved hull is likely to form that extra grouping.

OR...we can run around like Henny Penny terrified that the sky is falling by assuming the worst of every "fact" we come upon

oldsig

 

[Massive]

I suspect that the OPVs will be the testbeds for new technologies while the Huons will more or less be there as cover until they are replaced in the 2030s.

The Huons are essentially obsolete given putting manned ships in minefields is no longer required for them to fulfil their role.

Larger ships with multiple drones is the current technology.

Regards,

Massive

 

[BPFP]

The Huons are essentially obsolete given putting manned ships in minefields is no longer required for them to fulfil their role.

Larger ships with multiple drones is the current technology.

Regards,

Massive

So would an OPV based follow on vessel be large enough to host sufficient aquatic drones to fulfill this role?

 

[Volkodav]

Just an observation, the aviation training ship Sycamore is a modified OPV design, and the submarine rescue ships Bessant and Stoker are offshore supply vessels but of a similar size to the OPVs. This could provide scope for both these contracted roles to be absorbed into an evolution of the OPV program in years to come.

More to the point, and in particular where submarine rescue is concerned, future OPVs could be designed to be compatible with the submarine rescue gear, enabling the nearest OPV to serve as base ship to equipment and personnel flown in on C-17.

To me the OPV could become the basis for a modern day Sloop, or what the LCS should have been, a flexible, multi role minor combatant, capable of being kitted out to perform any role short of high intensity warfare, that the government requires.

On border protection they could employ surveillance ROVs and UAVs as well as fast interceptor craft, boarding parties and security teams. Mine warfare could become a deployable capability that could be practiced in harbor from containerised systems and shipped or flown where needed and fitted to the most convenient pre fitted hull. The could also be HADR and pollution control kits, special warfare ones as well.

Multiple capabilities could be addressed using common interfaces on OPVs, frigates and amphibs. Each school or speciality could have a deployable cadre for emergencies, backed up be reserve elements for longer duration operations/events. The savings in training and logistics would be substantial, while the ability to simply fly in the relevant teams and their containerised gear would be a real force multiplier.

 

[Massive]

So would an OPV based follow on vessel be large enough to host sufficient aquatic drones to fulfill this role?

I believe so.

Regards,

Massive

 

[hauritz]

The Naval Shipbuilding Plan calls for additional vessels to be built in the 2030s with the construction of follow-on vessels to commence around 2040.

http://www.defence.gov.au/NavalShipBuilding/Plan/Docs/NavalShipbuildingPlan.pdf

My guess would be that the navy will end up with around 20 OPV sized vessels as per the original plan.

 

[oldsig127]

The Naval Shipbuilding Plan calls for additional vessels to be built in the 2030s with the construction of follow-on vessels to commence around 2040.

http://www.defence.gov.au/NavalShipBuilding/Plan/Docs/NavalShipbuildingPlan.pdf

My guess would be that the navy will end up with around 20 OPV sized vessels as per the original plan.

Thanks Hauritz, I should have posted the link with my own post instead of just "quoting" the gist of it. in my defence, I'd saved the document to my storage and didn't know the direct link. Laziness though, did the rest!

oldsig

 

[hauritz]

Saw this article on naval today. Nice little read about HMAS Hobart off Hawaii kicking goals with USN.
Australian, US Navy test Cooperative Engagement Capability off Hawaii

I wonder how closely the USN will look at the Hobart given that a variant of that design is being offered in their FFG(x) program. It seems to me that the Hobart is as close as the US will get to an off the shelf design that will have already been thoroughly tested with their own fleet.

 

[John Newman]

The Naval Shipbuilding Plan calls for additional vessels to be built in the 2030s with the construction of follow-on vessels to commence around 2040.

http://www.defence.gov.au/NavalShipBuilding/Plan/Docs/NavalShipbuildingPlan.pdf

My guess would be that the navy will end up with around 20 OPV sized vessels as per the original plan.

Yes certainly agree that the Naval Shipbuilding Plan lists various projects for 'minor Naval vessels' after the completion of the 12 OPVs, but I think that the original aims of the 2009 DWP version of SEA 1180 (eg, 20 OPVs to replace 26 ships of four classes), has moved on. Best to look at the 2016 DWP for, what I believe, is a clearer picture.

The 2016 DWP proposed 12 OPVs to replace the 14 ACPBs (which is now happening), it also said that 'four' of the Huon class MHCs would be upgraded (to last until around 2030), and finally it said that "Defence will seek to replace the hydrographic capability with an efficient combination of military and commercial hydrographic and oceanographic survey capabilities."

As best as I understand it, the 2 Leeuwin class AGS will be replaced with a new ship, project SEA 2400 Phase 1, with a single ship, for example something along the lines of this:

https://www.fincantieri.com/globala...vi-militari/m-18-16_hydrographic-vessel_f.pdf

As for the four Paluma class AGSCs, nothing appears to have been announced at this stage.


Anyway, my best guess is that yes we will probably see another batch of OPVs to replace the 4 Huon and possibly 4 Paluma, but not the 2 Leeuwin.

Maybe 4-6 (max) OPVs but certainly not another eight.

Anyway, just my opinion of course too.

Cheers,

 

[Stampede]

Just an observation, the aviation training ship Sycamore is a modified OPV design, and the submarine rescue ships Bessant and Stoker are offshore supply vessels but of a similar size to the OPVs. This could provide scope for both these contracted roles to be absorbed into an evolution of the OPV program in years to come.

More to the point, and in particular where submarine rescue is concerned, future OPVs could be designed to be compatible with the submarine rescue gear, enabling the nearest OPV to serve as base ship to equipment and personnel flown in on C-17.

To me the OPV could become the basis for a modern day Sloop, or what the LCS should have been, a flexible, multi role minor combatant, capable of being kitted out to perform any role short of high intensity warfare, that the government requires.

On border protection they could employ surveillance ROVs and UAVs as well as fast interceptor craft, boarding parties and security teams. Mine warfare could become a deployable capability that could be practiced in harbor from containerised systems and shipped or flown where needed and fitted to the most convenient pre fitted hull. The could also be HADR and pollution control kits, special warfare ones as well.

Multiple capabilities could be addressed using common interfaces on OPVs, frigates and amphibs. Each school or speciality could have a deployable cadre for emergencies, backed up be reserve elements for longer duration operations/events. The savings in training and logistics would be substantial, while the ability to simply fly in the relevant teams and their containerised gear would be a real force multiplier.

Volk

A good overview.
The RAN will be very comfortable with the OPV's capabilities when the last one is delivered in 2030. As to beyond this date, one can certainly envisage both more vessels and maybe a modest increase in their size.
The days of the old patrol boat era, will well and truly be over, as will the limit of expectations from what such small vessels can deliver.

The future looks positive.

Regards s

 

[oldsig127]

Yes certainly agree that the Naval Shipbuilding Plan lists various projects for 'minor Naval vessels' after the completion of the 12 OPVs, but I think that the original aims of the 2009 DWP version of SEA 1180 (eg, 20 OPVs to replace 26 ships of four classes), has moved on. Best to look at the 2016 DWP for, what I believe, is a clearer picture.

I'm inclined to look at the 2017 Naval Shipbuilding plan as a better guide myself. It's informed by the 2016 DWP and deals with the practicalities of delivering it. It's certainly not driven by the 2009 paper which you can discount since it wasn't mentioned

oldsig

 

[ASSAIL]

Yes certainly agree that the Naval Shipbuilding Plan lists various projects for 'minor Naval vessels' after the completion of the 12 OPVs, but I think that the original aims of the 2009 DWP version of SEA 1180 (eg, 20 OPVs to replace 26 ships of four classes), has moved on. Best to look at the 2016 DWP for, what I believe, is a clearer picture.

The 2016 DWP proposed 12 OPVs to replace the 14 ACPBs (which is now happening), it also said that 'four' of the Huon class MHCs would be upgraded (to last until around 2030), and finally it said that "Defence will seek to replace the hydrographic capability with an efficient combination of military and commercial hydrographic and oceanographic survey capabilities."

As best as I understand it, the 2 Leeuwin class AGS will be replaced with a new ship, project SEA 2400 Phase 1, with a single ship, for example something along the lines of this:

https://www.fincantieri.com/globala...vi-militari/m-18-16_hydrographic-vessel_f.pdf

As for the four Paluma class AGSCs, nothing appears to have been announced at this stage.


Anyway, my best guess is that yes we will probably see another batch of OPVs to replace the 4 Huon and possibly 4 Paluma, but not the 2 Leeuwin.

Maybe 4-6 (max) OPVs but certainly not another eight.

Anyway, just my opinion of course too.

Cheers,

The RAN Hydrographic Office has a huge area of responsibility, not only in Australia but also in PNG and the Solomon Islands.
I can’t see any reduction in capacity and I believe there will always be tasking for SML (Shepparton) type vessels due to their ability in shallow coastal waters.
The DCP also outlines a need for a future Rapid Geospatial assessment-whatever the buzzword is- (survey beaches, anchorages etc ahead of a TG). capability and I would assume that task would utilise an OPV type ship
I also assume that Hdro OPVs will become a reality.
I have included the 2017-2020 Hydro charting plan, it’s a 39 page doc but it puts some perspective around the scope of work undertaken by Droggy and I can’t imagine any hollowing out of the force although I expect some civilian work share will eventuate.

http://www.hydro.gov.au/business-publications/HydroScheme_2017-2020_WEB_20171103.pdf

 

[Joe Black]

The new mast is installed onto HMAS Arunta as part of the AMCAP update:

News | Fleet upgrade milestone - new mast for HMAS Arunta | BAE Systems | Australia

 

[ASSAIL]

The new mast is installed onto HMAS Arunta as part of the AMCAP update:

News | Fleet upgrade milestone - new mast for HMAS Arunta | BAE Systems | Australia

Great! still painted grey, twice the area to be covered in exhaust soot which is almost impossible to clean.
We learned the lesson with the CFAs where everything above the funnel was painted black but this lesson seems to be lost.
You can’t argue that black effects the radar because they end up black anyway.
Rant off!

 

[Volkodav]

Great! still painted grey, twice the area to be covered in exhaust soot which is almost impossible to clean.
We learned the lesson with the CFAs where everything above the funnel was painted black but this lesson seems to be lost.
You can’t argue that black effects the radar because they end up black anyway.
Rant off!

Paint scheme is decided by engineers in the project then the spo, it's not up to anyone with practical experience unless they can get a seat on a CDR or similar.

 

[hauritz]

Yes certainly agree that the Naval Shipbuilding Plan lists various projects for 'minor Naval vessels' after the completion of the 12 OPVs, but I think that the original aims of the 2009 DWP version of SEA 1180 (eg, 20 OPVs to replace 26 ships of four classes), has moved on. Best to look at the 2016 DWP for, what I believe, is a clearer picture.

The 2016 DWP proposed 12 OPVs to replace the 14 ACPBs (which is now happening), it also said that 'four' of the Huon class MHCs would be upgraded (to last until around 2030), and finally it said that "Defence will seek to replace the hydrographic capability with an efficient combination of military and commercial hydrographic and oceanographic survey capabilities."

As best as I understand it, the 2 Leeuwin class AGS will be replaced with a new ship, project SEA 2400 Phase 1, with a single ship, for example something along the lines of this:

https://www.fincantieri.com/globala...vi-militari/m-18-16_hydrographic-vessel_f.pdf

As for the four Paluma class AGSCs, nothing appears to have been announced at this stage.


Anyway, my best guess is that yes we will probably see another batch of OPVs to replace the 4 Huon and possibly 4 Paluma, but not the 2 Leeuwin.

Maybe 4-6 (max) OPVs but certainly not another eight.

Anyway, just my opinion of course too.

Cheers,

The OPVs already have the Hydrographic role assigned to them so it does look like they will eventually take over the role of Paluma class AGSCs.

At this stage, it is probably safe to assume that the navy will end up with more than 12 of these ships. The ongoing shipbuilding program won't be entirely dependent on building more OPVs for the navy. The Australian Border Force will be replacing a range of patrol boats and cutters in the 2030s and it would seem that a variant of an OPV80 design would be a strong candidate for replacing at least some of these vessels.

 

[John Newman]

I'm inclined to look at the 2017 Naval Shipbuilding plan as a better guide myself. It's informed by the 2016 DWP and deals with the practicalities of delivering it. It's certainly not driven by the 2009 paper which you can discount since it wasn't mentioned

oldsig

Yes and No.

Certainly the 2009 DWP (and 2013 DWP), have been replaced by the 2016 DWP, no doubt about that, and yes of course since then we've had the 2017 Naval Shipbuilding Plan.

But... there is a bit of a contradiction within the 2017 NSP, the timeline chart on page 35 shows that SEA 1179 (Minehunter) and SEA 2400 (Survey Ship) replacements are planned to start around 2030, eg, at the end of the OPV project.

Yet in the text at the bottom of Page 38, Paragraph 2.16, (the section on Hydrographic Data Collection Capability), it mentions that, "the military survey capability will be delivered in the mid 2020s".

And if you also have a look at the link below:

AusTender: Closed ATM View - CASG/SHIP/EOI0071/17

You will see that the tender for SEA 2400 Phase 1, which closed in February 2018, is talking about a ship to be delivered in 2025. This is the ship (not ships) that I understand will replace the 2 Leeuwin class AGS.

I believe that SEA 2400 is a 'multi phase' project, it may well be that the replacements mentioned in the 2017 NSP page 35 (2030) are for the 4 Paluma class AGSC.

Anyway, I certainly do believe that we will see follow on OPVs (after the first 12 are completed), but I can't see that we will end up with another eight OPVs (to make a fleet of 20 in total), as originally proposed in the 2009 DWP.

Cheers,

 

[John Newman]

The RAN Hydrographic Office has a huge area of responsibility, not only in Australia but also in PNG and the Solomon Islands.
I can’t see any reduction in capacity and I believe there will always be tasking for SML (Shepparton) type vessels due to their ability in shallow coastal waters.
The DCP also outlines a need for a future Rapid Geospatial assessment-whatever the buzzword is- (survey beaches, anchorages etc ahead of a TG). capability and I would assume that task would utilise an OPV type ship
I also assume that Hdro OPVs will become a reality.
I have included the 2017-2020 Hydro charting plan, it’s a 39 page doc but it puts some perspective around the scope of work undertaken by Droggy and I can’t imagine any hollowing out of the force although I expect some civilian work share will eventuate.

http://www.hydro.gov.au/business-publications/HydroScheme_2017-2020_WEB_20171103.pdf

Hi Mate,

It's interesting that you've put the link up for that PDF, I was actually having a read of it last night, the Hydro boys and girls certainly do have a lot on their plate!!

I don't think it's so much of a question of a 'reduced' Hydro capability, but more of 'who and how' the capability is actually going to be operated by into the future.

Again if we go back to the wording used in the 2016 DWP it says: "Defence will seek to replace the hydrographic capability with an efficient combination of military and commercial hydrographic and oceanographic survey capabilities."

I would reasonably assume that part of the answer to that is using the OPVs and also the ship to be procured in the mid 2020s under SEA 2400 Ph1, but what we don't know yet is what the 'commercial' capabilities will involve.

It may well be that (other than the commissioned OPVs and the proposed SEA 2400 Ph 1 ship) other ships may well be civilian operated (eg, such as MV Sycamore and other RAN support ships operated by Serco).

Anyway, the point of my post wasn't to suggest a reduction in Hydro capability, but rather to suggest that time has moved on since the 2009 DWP plan for 26 ships of four classes to be replaced by 20 OPVs.

Cheers,

 

[ASSAIL]

Hi Mate,

It's interesting that you've put the link up for that PDF, I was actually having a read of it last night, the Hydro boys and girls certainly do have a lot on their plate!!

I don't think it's so much of a question of a 'reduced' Hydro capability, but more of 'who and how' the capability is actually going to be operated by into the future.

Again if we go back to the wording used in the 2016 DWP it says: "Defence will seek to replace the hydrographic capability with an efficient combination of military and commercial hydrographic and oceanographic survey capabilities."

I would reasonably assume that part of the answer to that is using the OPVs and also the ship to be procured in the mid 2020s under SEA 2400 Ph1, but what we don't know yet is what the 'commercial' capabilities will involve.

It may well be that (other than the commissioned OPVs and the proposed SEA 2400 Ph 1 ship) other ships may well be civilian operated (eg, such as MV Sycamore and other RAN support ships operated by Serco).

Anyway, the point of my post wasn't to suggest a reduction in Hydro capability, but rather to suggest that time has moved on since the 2009 DWP plan for 26 ships of four classes to be replaced by 20 OPVs.

Cheers,

Thanks and I understand your intention.
The part that won’t be civilianised tho is the “rapid geospatial assessments” which will always remain with the service and I assume a variety of unmanned vehicles based from ?? Possibly an OPV will be used although I can certainly see much of the oceanographic work being leased out.
I’ve had a little bit to do with the survey cats and am amazed at their flexibility and utility.
They are a much underrated capability but I’m willing to be corrected by an hydrographer who knows better.