Royal Air Force [RAF] discussions and updates

[ngatimozart]

If the RAF work with the RAAF in Wedgetail software based spiral upgrades, and more specifically learn from the RAAF the methodology and culture regarding how the upgrades are envisaged, planned, acquisition procedures (very different) etc., they may find that they are on to a real winner. The acquisition bureaucrats at the MOD won't be impressed, but they aren't the ones at the sharp end. Boeing have after initial resistance, finally accepted this Wedgetail spiral upgrade development system and the beauty about it is that it is operator driven and by operator I mean the operators on the aircraft themselves, not some engineer and / or bureaucrat back in Canberra.

 

[the concerned]

With the f-35's now starting to arrive in the country is there any reason why Marham based aircraft couldn't share QRA duties.

 

[ngatimozart]

With the f-35's now starting to arrive in the country is there any reason why Marham based aircraft couldn't share QRA duties.

Probably because they have been certified for that yet.

 

[FORBIN]

With the f-35's now starting to arrive in the country is there any reason why Marham based aircraft couldn't share QRA duties.

Probably because they have been certified for that yet.

Yet arrived since only 2 months and 9 birds… and it is the job for Typhoon Sqns ofc​

 

[south]

With the f-35's now starting to arrive in the country is there any reason why Marham based aircraft couldn't share QRA duties.

1) Not required.
2) Marham isn’t a QRA base
3) they will be busy working up to other things like IOC and in the long term a carrier strike capability.

Pretty sure it isn’t in the RAF plan.

 

[StobieWan]

Yup, F35B's dance card is all marked for a fair way into the future - QRA is the Tiffy role and will remain so for probably the life of Typhoon.

 

[swerve]

Per the MOD, the 2015 SDSR called for keeping the Sentry in service until 2035... whether or not that is technically feasible or economically sensible is of course another story.

Looking through some things, Turkey's Peace Eagle programme which delivered four Boeing 737-700 AEW&C aircraft based on the RAAF E-7 Wedgetail for an initial contract price of USD$1.6 bil. back in 2002, which included a software support centre. While time (and inflation) has moved on that would suggest that a 1:1 replacement of the RAF's current E-3D Sentry AEW.Mk1 for a version of the Boeing AEW&C would be a little over £3 bil.

While it appears that there would be a higher up front cost for getting a version of the Wedgetail, I suspect both the capabilities and operating/support costs would be better than that of upgraded RAF Sentries. I would not be surprised if it was projected that my estimated £1 bil. higher up front cost would be made up over a 15+ year service life by increased mission availability, reduced operating costs, and a potentially significantly reduced maintenance burden. The first Sentry entered RAF service in July, 1991 so has been in for 27 years at present. If the Sentries are kept until 2035, the type would have been in service for 44 years, while the airframe would have been out of production since 1992...

I was probably rather optimistic, but it does very much look as if we could get a better capability for essentially no extra spending.

My biggest worry is the tendency of British governments to focus on the short term, often choosing to spend more over ten years to save over two or three.

 

[Todjaeger]

I was probably rather optimistic, but it does very much look as if we could get a better capability for essentially no extra spending.

My biggest worry is the tendency of British governments to focus on the short term, often choosing to spend more over ten years to save over two or three.

One of the questions I would have is what are the RAF sortie rate and/or airspace volume search requirements. Me being me, I would prefer at least a 1:1 replacement ratio, but if the current requirements are the ability to maintain a single bird aloft, with the ability to surge another bird or two, then a reduced number of replacement AEW&C aircraft might be possible. If that were to be the case, then the Boeing 737 AEW&C aircraft would become even more competitive vs. a MLU and SLEP for the RAF Sentries.

IMO it would be good for the RAF to talk with the USAF to see if there are any US plans to start replacing the E-3 Sentry in the near future, or the USN about E-2 Hawkeye replacements. If there are no such plans, or plans that would not meet UK requirements in terms of cost, time frame, or ability to deploy from UK defence assets, then speaking with Boeing about the AEW&C would make sense.

 

[swerve]

I'd find it surprising if the RAF is interested in anything except the 737 AEW&C, unless there's a USAF project we don't know about but the RAF does, but the E-2D or a carrier-based replacement would surprise me even more than the Swedish & Israeli options. Aircraft performance would be too limited. Doesn't matter how good the sensors are if they can't get to where you want them.

A mix of manned (737) & unmanned (perhaps with a derivative of the Osprey, or something similar) might be possible.

 

[ngatimozart]

A mix of manned (737) & unmanned (perhaps with a derivative of the Osprey, or something similar) might be possible.

Maybe if there is an AEW & C variant of a tiltrotor developed. Said development costs would be somewhat expensive and the UK would want to avoid those if at all possible. An AAR receivable AEW&C tiltrotor would be a highly valuable asset to any maritime force.

 

[ASSAIL]

I'd find it surprising if the RAF is interested in anything except the 737 AEW&C, unless there's a USAF project we don't know about but the RAF does, but the E-2D or a carrier-based replacement would surprise me even more than the Swedish & Israeli options. Aircraft performance would be too limited. Doesn't matter how good the sensors are if they can't get to where you want them.

A mix of manned (737) & unmanned (perhaps with a derivative of the Osprey, or something similar) might be possible.

It seems a UK Wedgetail is closer than you think. The RAF has aircrew serving in Australia currently and I doubt that SAAB is a serious competitor.

UK moves closer to Wedgetail buy - Australian Defence Magazine

Boeing: Sky Patrol: Australia’s Wedgetail Fleet Earns Rave Reviews

 

[StobieWan]

Oh we all suspect it's pretty close now - the only thing that can stop it is a demand for an open and fair competition in which we'd have to spend money working out that Wedgetail works, *then* buy it. The RAF appear to be of the view they've had a look around and Wedgetail is an "add to cart" process.

 

[swerve]

I'm sure that the only argument anyone would be able to muster against it is that Globaleye or G550 CAEW would be cheaper for the same number of aircraft.

 

[StobieWan]

I suspect after the two Nimrod fiascos, the RAF will be plenty shy and very conservative in terms of any development risk - they may not get their way but I'm sure they're thinking "P8, E7..one airframe, one pilot qualification path, one spares chain.."

 

[John Fedup]

Yep, and its all about the pollies not getting in the way at this point. Hoping for the positive!

 

[swerve]

Maybe if there is an AEW & C variant of a tiltrotor developed. Said development costs would be somewhat expensive and the UK would want to avoid those if at all possible. An AAR receivable AEW&C tiltrotor would be a highly valuable asset to any maritime force.

Carrier-borne AEW doesn't need a replacement. The RN's Merlin helicopters are being fitted to carry an AEW kit. We're getting 10 sets of radar & associated gear, & we'll have 30 helicopters fitted to carry them.

If someone else pays for the development of an AEW tiltrotor in the future the RN might be interested, but not now, & it certainly isn't going to spend anything to develop one in the foreseeable future.

 

[ngatimozart]

Carrier-borne AEW doesn't need a replacement. The RN's Merlin helicopters are being fitted to carry an AEW kit. We're getting 10 sets of radar & associated gear, & we'll have 30 helicopters fitted to carry them.

If someone else pays for the development of an AEW tiltrotor in the future the RN might be interested, but not now, & it certainly isn't going to spend anything to develop one in the foreseeable future.

Yep granted, but CROWSNEST is an inefficient way of doing it. The radar creates significant drag, a helo doesn't have the range, speed nor ceiling of a tilt rotor, that's all. If you read what I wrote: "Said development costs would be somewhat expensive and the UK would want to avoid those if at all possible.", I think that covers that. However it should be something to be looked at when the CROWSNEST replacement project is undertaken.

 

[StobieWan]

Carrier-borne AEW doesn't need a replacement. The RN's Merlin helicopters are being fitted to carry an AEW kit. We're getting 10 sets of radar & associated gear, & we'll have 30 helicopters fitted to carry them.

If someone else pays for the development of an AEW tiltrotor in the future the RN might be interested, but not now, & it certainly isn't going to spend anything to develop one in the foreseeable future.

I suspect a palletised V22 system will emerge, it's too obvious a market to miss. No need for the UK to develop it.

 

[swerve]

Yep granted, but CROWSNEST is an inefficient way of doing it. The radar creates significant drag, a helo doesn't have the range, speed nor ceiling of a tilt rotor, that's all. If you read what I wrote: "Said development costs would be somewhat expensive and the UK would want to avoid those if at all possible.", I think that covers that. However it should be something to be looked at when the CROWSNEST replacement project is undertaken.

Agreed, & I think Crowsnest isn't expected to last very long (it was the low-risk not too expensive solution, not the top of the line one), so that probably means something for the early 2030s.

I won't be surprised if Stobiewan turns out to be right. Or someone might put a system on the AW609 (smaller, lighter, cheaper to operate), perhaps resembling a scaled-up Leonardo Osprey radar - which has been selected by the USN for the MQ-8C, or decide that the combination of relatively small cost & footprint, & long endurance, of a VTOL UAV like MQ-8C is a worthwhile trade-off against ceiling & speed. We'll have to wait & see.

 

[t68]

I imagine this would increase your costs overall, would it also defeat the purpose of training on the RAAF birds if you change it?

MoD to 'Anglicise' Boeing Wedgetail jets after £2bn deal with US firm aroused British companies' anger


What’s so different with this buy then when you received ex USAF Airseekers/ Rivet Joint aircraft, don’t see you changing the P8’s aswell