Royal Air Force (RAF-UK) Discussions and Updates

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south

Well-Known Member
MrConservative said:
Chairman Julian Lewis said: “If the MoD’s procurement record was one of unalloyed success they could argue relying on their judgment rather than a competition is reasonable. That’s not the case and it’s wholly unreasonable to exclude viable alternatives.”

One could argue that the MOD's procurement record might have been one of unalloyed success had they had been left to rely on their own judgment rather than have politicians and local industry lobbyists not forcing them down local content procurement strait jackets that over cost, over complicate and under deliver.
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This clearly illustrates the largest difference between the ADF and the UK MoD. The Uk MOD for right or wrong is subject to far more political intereference than the ADF currently is (and likely ever will be). Like it or not so much UK purchasing is built around UK jobs rather cost, timeline or capability.

The wedgetail is clearly the most capable platform with significantly less risk, operationally proven.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Certainly the UK isn't the only country with a biased procurement operation that places jobs and Polly egos ahead of capability and cost. Canada and India are definitely in the club of clusters.
 
S

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
south said:
This clearly illustrates the largest difference between the ADF and the UK MoD. The Uk MOD for right or wrong is subject to far more political intereference than the ADF currently is (and likely ever will be). Like it or not so much UK purchasing is built around UK jobs rather cost, timeline or capability.

The wedgetail is clearly the most capable platform with significantly less risk, operationally proven.
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Whoaa..easy tiger, next you'll be implying that HMG would tack on an order for an extra 12 Nimrod to keep the manufacturer in clover..oh shoot..they did that..Uh..or buy Chinooks for SOF ops, then not buy the off the shelf adapts that TF26 used and go for some half assed solution that turned out to be impossible to certify for IFR in anything else other than wartime. Uh..oh yeah, they did that.

Harumph..um..I'll get me coat...

It does smack of that - if they can get offsets..oh, wait, tell the public we'll be making the wheel well hatches for the P8 AND the E7 (in joke, the 737 doesn't have any..)
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
The theoretically available platforms arranged in order of platform performance (range, endurance, patrol altitude) are probably B737, Globaleye, G550 & E-2D. I can't take the E-2D seriously for the UK's requirement, because of the platform performance. Of the others, the B737 has to be the favourite by a wide margin. It ticks too many more boxes than the others, from airframe commonality onwards.

I can't pretend to be able to judge radar & other systems performance, but maybe they're all good enough.
 
S

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
swerve said:
The theoretically available platforms arranged in order of platform performance (range, endurance, patrol altitude) are probably B737, Globaleye, G550 & E-2D. I can't take the E-2D seriously for the UK's requirement, because of the platform performance. Of the others, the B737 has to be the favourite by a wide margin. It ticks too many more boxes than the others, from airframe commonality onwards.

I can't pretend to be able to judge radar & other systems performance, but maybe they're all good enough.
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I suspect from a human engineering point of view, the 737 has a bit more room to move around in and there's just more space to stretch your legs, pay a visit, grab a cuppa etc. The major cost drivers appear to be the innards as opposed to the cab.

Radar wise, I've no idea so it's down to platform maturity and what the end user experience has been like.
 
S

Stampede

Well-Known Member
ngatimozart said:
It's official, the UK is in talks with Boeing about a possible UK acquisition of the E-7A Wedgetail. The MOD mandarins see the advantages of the commonality with the P-8, closer collaboration between the RAF & RAAF on both platforms, best VfM for all systems available and good opportunities for pommy industry.

Britain confirms talks with Boeing over potential $2.6B Wedgetail aircraft buy
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Should this deal go through I wonder if the RAAF would consider adding to their existing Wedgetail fleet.
Aircraft 7 or 8 maybe?

Regards S
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Stampede said:
Should this deal go through I wonder if the RAAF would consider adding to their existing Wedgetail fleet.
Aircraft 7 or 8 maybe?

Regards S
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I don't know if they would be able to obtain the funding. It might be a case of what would you want to get rid of to get these extra aircraft. Having said that, given that the regional geostrategic situation has deteriorated since the Wedgetails were acquired, the RAAF may have a case for extra funding to acquire 2 more aircraft, especially after its performance during OP OKRA.
 
Todjaeger

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Stampede said:
Should this deal go through I wonder if the RAAF would consider adding to their existing Wedgetail fleet.
Aircraft 7 or 8 maybe?

Regards S
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IIRC the RAAF ordered four of the aircraft which became the E-7 Wedgetail, with options for three more. Only two of those options were exercised, so I am uncertain whether the third option was not exercised due to a perceived lack of need, or if it was insufficient budget funding available. At this point I would assume that the final remaining option has passed since it has been due to march of time.
 
John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
StobieWan said:
I am super stoked to hear that :)
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If the procurement of Wedgetail proceeds (and on top of the RAF P-8A procurement), I wonder if the RAF will have a review of their AAR tanker fleet and install centreline a boom like all the other A330 MRTT/KC-30A operators?
 
John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Todjaeger said:
IIRC the RAAF ordered four of the aircraft which became the E-7 Wedgetail, with options for three more. Only two of those options were exercised, so I am uncertain whether the third option was not exercised due to a perceived lack of need, or if it was insufficient budget funding available. At this point I would assume that the final remaining option has passed since it has been due to march of time.
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I vaguely remember it being reported at the time, that whilst there were 6 Wedgetail built for the RAAF, that a 7th radar system was also purchased too, but obviously not used.

If true and still in the RAAFs possession, maybe it's kept as a spare??
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From the RAF Facebook page. F-35B night ops off HMS QE. Absolutely stunning photos.






Photos Caption:
Amazing photographs - Royal Navy and Royal Air Force Test Pilots have conducted the first night flying trials off the United Kingdom’s largest warship, HMS Queen Elizabeth.

The trials included state-of-the-art night-vision technology, with the pilots and aircraft handlers successfully guiding the supersonic fighter jets onto the flight deck. HMS Queen Elizabeth has been kitted out with specially-designed LED lighting on her flight deck to aid night time landings.
 
S

Stampede

Well-Known Member
John Newman said:
I vaguely remember it being reported at the time, that whilst there were 6 Wedgetail built for the RAAF, that a 7th radar system was also purchased too, but obviously not used.

If true and still in the RAAFs possession, maybe it's kept as a spare??
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That is my recollection as well.
I appreciate defence does not have a blank cheque to purchase extra of every bit of kit. However if funds become available,then well proven and indispensable systems like the RAAF's Wedgetail maybe on the nice to have extra list.
Certainly if the RAF go ahead with Wegetail there should be an economy of scale in tapping on to their production lot.

Time will tell.


Regards S
 
Todjaeger

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
swerve said:
Don't forget that Turkey & South Korea each have four B737 AEW. It's not just Australian.
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Turkey and S. Korea both ordered B737 AEW aircraft, and IIRC Australia received some royalties payments as a result, as some of the IP for either the radar or software is Australian-owned.
 
R

rjtjrt

Member
John Newman said:
I vaguely remember it being reported at the time, that whilst there were 6 Wedgetail built for the RAAF, that a 7th radar system was also purchased too, but obviously not used.

If true and still in the RAAFs possession, maybe it's kept as a spare??
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My recollection is RAAF were initially authorised by gov of the day to firm order 4 Wedgetail, but ordered 6 sets of the MESA radar, and optioned the 3 airframes rather than order the whole 7 they wanted.
Later they were authorised to order 2 more airframes to utilise the extra MESA radars that had bern purchased.
I assume RAAF argued to gov of day in initial purchase a saving if “bulk” order of radar allowed.
 
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