NZDF General discussion thread

t68

Well-Known Member
Where be the link?
Sorry I can't post links from my iPhone for some reason, as the pc is at home and I'm enjoying the fishing and surfing up on the mid north coast on holidays, but that info for 1b came from the FMS case(Nov 2016) I'll post it when I get back.

Just going down to the fish co-op for some fresh prawns for lunch.
 
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t68

Well-Known Member
Some more information or a link would make this understandable. For example what is the interesting idea.
The idea was more on the cost for strike/CAS overwatch aircraft at a lower cost to reforming an ACF, when looking at the Canadian deal for F/A-18E/F for 5.23b USD, but the other end of the spectrum was 12x A-29 Super Tucano plus supporting infrastructure to Nigera for 593m USD
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The idea was more on the cost for strike/CAS overwatch aircraft at a lower cost to reforming an ACF, when looking at the Canadian deal for F/A-18E/F for 5.23b USD, but the other end of the spectrum was 12x A-29 Super Tucano plus supporting infrastructure to Nigera for 593m USD
Why would we want the Tucano when we already have the T-6 Texan II? We would be far better off doing something like the Indonesians where they got 24 REGEN & Upgraded F-16 C/D plus support for US$750 million. We'd get a twice the numbers and a far more capable platform for an extra US$157 million.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The idea was more on the cost for strike/CAS overwatch aircraft at a lower cost to reforming an ACF, when looking at the Canadian deal for F/A-18E/F for 5.23b USD, but the other end of the spectrum was 12x A-29 Super Tucano plus supporting infrastructure to Nigera for 593m USD
Nah ... I cannot see us really needing what is a tricked up COIN platform. Nigeria in its geopolitical and geographical context within continental Africa yes, but NZ not so much. Our former strike capability focused on anti-shipping post Kahu upgrades equally as much as CAS/Interdiction in the later years. Besides, the KAI FA-50 offers much for the kind of lost capability gap we would be trying to close at that price point.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Why would we want the Tucano when we already have the T-6 Texan II? We would be far better off doing something like the Indonesians where they got 24 REGEN & Upgraded F-16 C/D plus support for US$750 million. We'd get a twice the numbers and a far more capable platform for an extra US$157 million.
That was just to give you an idea of price guide for capabilty for your $$, I agree a flight of Wolverine would go a long way in kick starting a limited capabilty.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Trump steel tariff snub flies in face of 'positive relationship'

David Parker says NZ is a strong US defence partner so we should have gotten gotten a special pass like Australia. No David, NZ are not really doing enough. We need to walk the talk.

If the NZ had over the last 5 years ordered the C-17's it wanted and needed, ordered P-8A8s and possibly some C-130J's then maybe we might have done enough to convince the Trump administration - more than oneself. More than words matter - actions also do.
 

Hone C

Active Member
Backing our allies up regards Syria and the Skripal poisoning case probably wouldn't have gone amiss either.
I hope the more overtly transactional nature of US foreign policy serves as a wake up to NZG's bizarre inability to recognize the connection between security and trade. Unfortunately with the current lot it probably won't.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Trade and security are connected but not so much with team Trump IMO. Canada bought C17s, C130Js, and Chinooks. Sanctions were placed on Canada too. They were reluctantly removed due to pressure from US automakers, not because of military purchases.

The fact is Trump’s base Is anti-trade and he gladly appeases. The NAFTA agreement could be the next deal to be trashed.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Trump steel tariff snub flies in face of 'positive relationship'

David Parker says NZ is a strong US defence partner so we should have gotten gotten a special pass like Australia. No David, NZ are not really doing enough. We need to walk the talk.

If the NZ had over the last 5 years ordered the C-17's it wanted and needed, ordered P-8A8s and possibly some C-130J's then maybe we might have done enough to convince the Trump administration - more than oneself. More than words matter - actions also do.
Would difference would buying US kit have made, Canada and Australia also buy US equipment and both fall under the same sanctions.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Would difference would buying US kit have made, Canada and Australia also buy US equipment and both fall under the same sanctions.
The exemption from tariff sanctions under the Section 232 of the US Trade Expansion Act for both Australia and Canada as well as the EU are based on the existing national security relationship. Our current PM wrote a letter inviting the Trump administration to consider the security exemption clause and was essentially shunned.

So absolutely there would have been a marked difference in outcome if NZ was in a closer defence - trade - diplomatic relationship with the US right now as what Australia enjoys.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I believe EU sanctions are still on the table. Sanctions on steel imports from Canada and Mexico would be a nightmare trying to figure out the amounts contained in auto parts within the tightly integrated North American auto manufacturing sector. It was massive pressure from this sector that produced the waiver (other sectors too). Trump's base doesn't care what defence products Canada bought from Boeing or LM, neither does Trump's trade negotiators. Sanctions could be back if NAFTA talks break down, a real possibility given the pending elections in Mexico then the US in November.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I believe EU sanctions are still on the table. Sanctions on steel imports from Canada and Mexico would be a nightmare trying to figure out the amounts contained in auto parts within the tightly integrated North American auto manufacturing sector. It was massive pressure from this sector that produced the waiver (other sectors too). Trump's base doesn't care what defence products Canada bought from Boeing or LM, neither does Trump's trade negotiators. Sanctions could be back if NAFTA talks break down, a real possibility given the pending elections in Mexico then the US in November.
Indeed Canada, Mexico and the EU are still temporary - and there is still a good chance that a 25% tariff regime will be placed on them. The US tariff regime is on raw steel and aluminium. Cross border auto parts using non US made steel are under another import classification. The cost of the part will rise for the consumer but the part will not (at this stage) be subject to the same import classification.

However, Australia’s "our great Ally" as tweeted Trump, has secured exemptions from US steel and aluminium tariffs are according to the OZ government both permanent and unconditional. That is something that NZ as a steel and aluminium producer, which did not even receive a temporary consideration like Canada has had imposed. If Australia had not had the robust defence and security relationship including defence acquisition history with the US, or one that was similar to NZ, it would also have been on the outer.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
To get a 1st hand look at how the AT-6B would perform and if its worth investing within RNZAF without going to the expense of highly controversial rebuilding of the fast jet ACF.
There is no political will, especially within the current govt, to go down that path. Aside from that, it would be a waste of resources because this capability is not part of CONOPS. Also if the NZG needs needs someone to have an introduction to a Mk-82, one or more can be delivered by the current P-3K2.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
To get a 1st hand look at how the AT-6B would perform and if its worth investing within RNZAF without going to the expense of highly controversial rebuilding of the fast jet ACF.
They already know the answer. It isn't and they aren't. They would have very very low operational utility.

We are surrounded by the Pacific ocean and not a continental land-mass with a COIN / LAS requirement. Nor are we likely to ever wish to deploy such a capability to distant continents to assist in conducting such operations. Furthermore there are better options for the same kind of money that would be far better equipped to deal with the emerging regional threatscape.

Therefore I struggle to foresee a relevant employment context for short range prop powered armed trainers in the NZDF like the AT-6B or A-29.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
A $250 million strategically valuable isr and mpa aircraft with a dozen highly trained and experienced servicemen and women aboard dropping a Mk82 on some target in a foresaken war torn corner of the earth does not make any sense what so ever. A $20 million dollar aircraft loitering around friendly forces providing top cover when needed at low cost or riding shotgun for a couple of helo transports flying over that same foresaken war torn corner of the earth makes far more sense. The CONOPS need to reflect the battle space of today. Its no longer state on state. Its the impoverished and oppressed or the twisted religions of the world fighting for their ideals and power in far flung locations where YOUR sons and daughters along with other Allied like minded children are sent to uphold our western values of right and wrong. Time and time again its been proven that go fasts are not the right tool for all scenarios. The capability of aircraft like the AT6 and the A29 have a place in the CONOPS of many nations but the closed mindedness of SILO maintainers in positions of influence cant see the value of such platforms. Maybe if they were those on the ground calling in CAS or flying through an area with a hot LZ needing suppressive fire would they maybe understand.

T68 you are on track. Countries like NZ and my own country need options that can provide a capability that is already availble and familiar to provide a capability in low intensity operations where air superiority is a given. How much treasure needs to be wasted trying to destroy irregular forces?

NZ will never return to fast jets of any type under any government. But 11 T6's are in country and could be added to with new build AT6 armed ISR aircraft in a reasonable number at a reasonable cost to provide a multitude of services.
 

Ocean1Curse

Member
Has any one seen all the inferred guided missiles in every ones stock piles. If we don't even know we are being targeted by inferred ATGMs or SAMs or anti-ship then how would we possibly react with out lose of life?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
A $20 million dollar aircraft loitering around friendly forces providing top cover when needed at low cost or riding shotgun for a couple of helo transports flying over that same foresaken war torn corner of the earth makes far more sense. The CONOPS need to reflect the battle space of today. Its no longer state on state. Its the impoverished and oppressed or the twisted religions of the world fighting for their ideals and power in far flung locations where YOUR sons and daughters along with other Allied like minded children are sent to uphold our western values of right and wrong. Time and time again its been proven that go fasts are not the right tool for all scenarios. The capability of aircraft like the AT6 and the A29 have a place in the CONOPS of many nations but the closed mindedness of SILO maintainers in positions of influence cant see the value of such platforms. Maybe if they were those on the ground calling in CAS or flying through an area with a hot LZ needing suppressive fire would they maybe understand.
New Zealand will contribute its SpecFor capabilities to those events if required as part of a coalition. It will not be wasting money on a capability that has even less utility in its principal area of operations - the Pacific, the Southern Ocean and the maritime littorals of Asia.

NZ will never return to fast jets of any type under any government. But 11 T6's are in country and could be added to with new build AT6 armed ISR aircraft in a reasonable number at a reasonable cost to provide a multitude of services.
If you think that fast jet is a no go - the appetite for for a LAS/COIN capability is even less.
 
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