Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Well as long as junior is office, Canada will be an opportunity for countries to dump kit they don't need. Doesn't matter to him or our electorate that our services don't want the stuff either.
There is a third way. The Royal Netherlands Navy has combined two ships into one. Their JSS Karel Doorman has been given quite an extensive RAS capability combining this with her amphibious function.
I think in a navy strapped for resources this is a very smart compromise and could easily work for the RAN
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Karel_Doorman_(A833)
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
A number of years ago, the Dutch government considered selling off the Karl Doorman just as it was being completed as a way to ease their budget problems at the time. Some here strongly recommended purchasing her as a solution to our stalled JSS project and then building 1 or 2 more here. Unfortunately for the RCN, wiser heads prevailed in the Netherlands and the Karl Doorman serves their navy and sometimes the German navy. Meanwhile, our AOR situation has only been partially addressed with Asterix and apparently 2.3 billion is not enough for SeaSpan to build two Berlin class AORs! Time for a visit to South Korea to shop around. A Tide class ship works for me.
walter
Active Member
This could also work,quite a bit cheaper as the Type 702/Berlin.
New Zealand discloses further details of navy's new fleet tanker | Jane's 360
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Absolutely and with that pricing Canada could get 3-4 ships. Too bad pollies feel corporate welfare is more important.
Muar River
Member
John, aren't there further ships of the Asterix type available for conversion? Is it planned to convert say two more ships rather than go ahead with the Berlins? This conversion seems satisfy both the RCN budget and also keeps the Shipyard in work.
Found this page which illustrates the impressive conversion results.
http://www.rogerlitwiller.com/2017/11/17/mv-asterix-exterior-tour-of-rcns-interim-aor/
Karel Doorman is built by Damen and our new ice breaker RSV Nuyina is being built now. Time lapse of the build at the link.
Australia’s new icebreaker – RSV Nuyina — Australian Antarctic Division
Yep, and that is sort of what is alluded to in the DWP noting the cross over of functions. It certainly makes sense.
t68
Well-Known Member
There are provisions in the contract after lease that the RCN could buy her, maybe that's why your beloved PM is stalling see how she stacks up
http://www.rogerlitwiller.com/2017/07/23/mv-asterix-why-not-hmcs-asterix/
That kind of reminds me of the Canadian JSS program.
They eventually settled on a modified version of the Berlin class ... but one of the other contenders was the Cantabria.
I have never been able to find what ... if any, modifications were proposed for the JSS variant of the Cantabria.
NUSHIP Supply keel laid
I do not understand why DoD are so low key on events like this. Barret witnessed the keeling laying of NUSHIP Supply yesterday and there was bugger all press reporting.
https://twitter.com/Australian_Navy/status/931765952106004480?s=17
I do not understand why DoD are so low key on events like this. Barret witnessed the keeling laying of NUSHIP Supply yesterday and there was bugger all press reporting.
https://twitter.com/Australian_Navy/status/931765952106004480?s=17
Probably because it is being built in Ferrol and they don't want a stink from Western Australia about why it wasn't sent to them to create jobs in the west.
MB
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
Truly impressive. Congratulations RAN.
And here in Canada we wait.
And here in Canada we wait.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Yes the Karel Doorman is certainly an impressive ship (I remember being surprised that the Dutch almost disposed of her right at the beginning).
And like you, I've always thought that a ship like the Karel Doorman would be a good solution to the DWP's future AOR or Choules type ship project, maybe you can have your cake and eat it too.
On the question of the potential 3rd AOR for the RAN, I have often thought do we really need a 3rd 'pure' AOR in RAN service? And especially with our Kiwi cousins across the ditch also acquiring their new large AOR too.
Do we really need 4 AOR's in our part of the world?
A Karel Doorman type ship (or even just another improved LPD/LSD), would be my choice, before another AOR.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
I am sure proper ships could be found for conversion but the politics are a huge issue. SeaSpan has invested ( and Irving too) a lot of money on their shipyard as a condition of guaranteed naval work. Davie was bankrupt when the other two yards were selected. Even if SeaSpan found suitable ships, it is hard to see them getting more money than Davie did for Asterix so for 2 ships that would be 1.4 billion which is almost 1 billion less than what they were promised (which apparently isn't enough now). It will be awhile before the RCN fully evaluates Asterix and I am sure it lacks features that the Berlins will have. The sad fact is the AORs' construction in Canada is a huge waste. Building offshore would be faster and the money saved could have been applied to the CSC program which should and is being built in Canada. SeaSpan should be 2-3 heavy icebreakers in addition to other CG vessels.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Yes it certainly good to see the RAN's AOR project moving along so smoothly, and the speed at which the project has been moving is also impressive, Cantabria design selected in early 2016, contracts signed before the end of 2016 and delivery scheduled for 2019 and 2020.
As opposed to what is happening in Canada, Berlin class selected back in 2013, and yet the ships are still not scheduled for delivery until 2021 and 2022, and as I also understand it, no steel has started to be cut yet.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
t68
Well-Known Member
yes we need the third but from my perspective I believe we should have four just for the RAN, we are technically a two ocean Navy one either East or West with the third being a replacement for either when they go in for maintenance
That's NZ sovereign capacity not always available to the RAN, hence one of the reasons why we leased Cantabria
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Four AORs for the RAN? That is la la land, where is the budget and manpower going to come from to own and operate 4 x AOR's?
How is the RAN going to employ 4 x AOR's? Even if the RAN ends up with three 'pure' AOR's I would imagine that we would only ever see two in operation at any one time with two crews swapping from one to the other.
And yes of course the new RNZN AOR will be a sovereign NZ capability, but I'm sure having a total of three AOR's either side of the ditch will be worked out by both our Governments for the benefit of all.
I think you missed the point of what I actually said too, I said do we really need a 3rd 'pure' AOR.
A ship like the Karel Doorman would be a better solution, in my opinion, yes it can operate as an AOR (when required), but primarily I would see a greater need for an additional LPD/LSD capability for when Choules (or her future eventual replacement) is not available.
t68
Well-Known Member
Who said anything about budget or manpower increase I'm certainty not expecting it to happen.
All I raised was from my perspective if we are aiming for a two ocean fleet the optimum solution is four vessels, one available at all times East and West with additional capacity for one being deployed overseas at any one time in support of our own task group or coalition event.
As you can see with the recent Indo-Pacific Endeavour 2017 task group one of our fleet support ships is tied up with this group leaving one ship in home waters, not much spare capacity if either ships was to go unserviceable.
But from the latest DWP perspective its either a fleet support or strategic lift ship, we have a need for both, if we can combine both ships to give spare capacity within the budget I'm all for it, relying on the Kiwi fleet oiler is not something I believe the RAN should be doing as they have there own sovereign needs.
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