Indonesian Aero News

[John Newman]

Has an embargo on TNI-AU fighter operations ever been imposed by the US or anyone else?

Memory is a bit faded, but wasn't there issues with both the US and UK over the F-16 and Hawks respectively in the early 90's??

I seem to remember that US placed sanctions (arms embargo?) and the UK too in regard to support and/or for additional Hawks.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Memory is a bit faded, but wasn't there issues with both the US and UK over the F-16 and Hawks respectively in the early 90's??

I seem to remember that US placed sanctions (arms embargo?) and the UK too in regard to support and/or for additional Hawks.

Yes indeed, and the US keep the embargo active for many years without a good reason, even after other countries deleted the embargo like the UK.

Our air force was in a bad condition in that period because of the economic crisis and the American embargo.

In that period the F-5E/Fs were in the MACAN midlife update program, but two of them were still in the US, and they refused to deliver them, although we already paid for it. They even later demanded that we pay for the 'storage costs'. ...

So the lesson Indonesia learned is not to be depended from one supplier and to better start to produce weapon and defence systems locally.

 

[Ananda]

@r0m..why SU35..? Why more Flankers ?..many points can be talk..but in my opinion because they want Gen 4++ fighters that derived from existing Gen 4 fighters they already have.

Thus they already familiar with SU27/30 so next steep is SU 35..

How about F-16..they are familiar with that right ? Why not that ?
Well frm existing 10 F-16 blk15 OCU, they add 24 ex USAF blk 25, and upgrade them with blk 52 avionics which then the supplier call them as F-16 52id. They are planning also to upgrade those 10 blk 15 OCU to same standard as F16 52id.

Is the story of F-16 end there? Well LM do make rigerous campaign for Blk 70. They with US Embassy recently shown blk 72 simulators in one USAID site in one of mall in Jakarta.

Simulator F-16 “Fighting Falcon” Hadir di @america! – ARCINC.ID

However since The first priority for Fighter in 2014-19 procurement period is for F-5 replacement..then Su35 is in the news now as Su 35.
Is there room for that F-16 blk72 ? Well if we are talk on long term plan seems there is..

TNI AU ORBAT was 7 sq:
1sq F-16 blk 15
1sq F-5
1sq OV 10 as COIN
1sq Hawk 50 as LIFT/Light Attack
2sq Hawk 200/100 as Light Attack/Recce
1sq Su27/30

As I mentioned few years back..TNI AU long term plan is to increase ORBAT to 10 sq by reviving some defunct sq # frm the 60's. So how's that plan progressing now ?

1sq of F-16 got add 24 additional F-16 frm existing 10. Thus enough to revive 1 defunct sq to make;
2 sq of F-16.
1sq of F-5 being replace by SU-35.
1sq of OV10 as COIN being replace by Super Tucano
1sq of Hawk 50 as LIFT being replace by T-50i
1sq of Su27/30
2sq of Hawk 200/100
Thus frm 7 sq they are now have 8 sq in the ORBAT.

That's left another 2 sq to revive to make it 10. However seems they will not doing it on 14-19 budget, but on 19-24 budget.
They already said they want to replace Hawk 200/100, which FA50 being discussed as potential candidate. So many local analyst talking on getting Blk 72 as potential 1 new sq, frm 2 plan revive sq.

So..in plan there are room still for additional F-16. How about Rafale, Eurojet or Grippen that are coming in also to offered their products ? Well the chances are there..However I'm thinkin on Additional F-16/Vipper and FA50..simply due to fammiliarity on operation, and for latter on close cooperation now building between DI and KAI.

In the end TNI-AU and Mindef betting on this:
https://m.tempo.co/read/news/2017/0...empur-buatan-korsel-indonesia-capai-14-persen

The KFX/IFX project is the main ambition by both ROKAF and TNI-AU, as the back bone of their fleet in the future. However the most ambitious scheddule can only see main production begin fill in to both AF after 2030.

@sandhi yudha..yes they are moving much slower compared to previous admin..but they are able to increased the # of Orbat frm 7 to 8 sq..O wait..that's the result of previous admin..
So they (present admin) need to shown they are able to get this Su35 deal rolling before the next ellection..afterall they don't want to be seen as 'only talkin' administration right..

After all many of the infrastructure projects are plann and conceived by previous admin who are now their opposition in next ellection..they don't want to be seen as admin that can only finishing other people projects..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Well, lets hope a contract for the 11 Su-35 will be really signed.

But there is some good news....really good news!

I took this image from another discussionforum, and the one who posted it, only said, it flew for a couple of seconds.
But looking to the photo, the aircraft already reached 4-5 meters of altitude, so the duration of being airborne should be more than 10 seconds or something! Even if it took off and directly landed after, lets say 200 meters flying, it is a real first flight!!!!!

How many years did we wait for this moment?! At least four years of delays, disappointments and an endless stream of empty newsreports....
And now (yesterday), on 11-08-2017, exactly 22 years and one day after the first flight of the N250 (10-08-1995), the N219 fllew for the first time...

 

[ADMk2]

Memory is a bit faded, but wasn't there issues with both the US and UK over the F-16 and Hawks respectively in the early 90's??

I seem to remember that US placed sanctions (arms embargo?) and the UK too in regard to support and/or for additional Hawks.

Yeah I seem to remember something about the Hawks, but they don't seem to have had many issues with F-16's and the new orders and upgrades seem to show they have significant confidence in that platform's level of support, not to mention the L-M content in T-50i / F/A-50...

 

[STURM]

If I remember correctly back in the 1990's some people broke into the British Aerospace plant at Warton and damaged a number of TNI-AU Hawks.

 

[Ananda]

I think few years back I say in this thread quoting frm some TNI AU pilots that I meet in local defence show..they "like" their flankers, and they "love" their F-16..

TNIAU brass always think their backbone is F-16..however just like all the brass in TNI 3 branches..they also did not want to depend only to Western supplier anymore like in Soeharto era or only to Eastern supplier like in Soekarno era in 60's..

Those are the main thinkin and I believe will stay for sometime in future..thus personally I believe TNI AU will get their assets both from Russian and US in turn..They got 24 refurbished F-16 few years back, before that they got SU-27/30. Now they are commited to get latest flanker, thus I think next acquisition will be latest F-16..

The thing with Euro sources (either SAAB, Rafale, or Eurofighter) frm what I gather on TNI AU..is more limited population which resulted with more expensive support later on..Thus why LM still have strong confidence that they can got deal for Blk 70 Viper sometime in future..

LM seems see themselves in good possition with F-16 being look favourably by TNI AU..Also with TA-50 and potentially FA-50 can also come out as Hawk 100/200 replacement in future..and KFX/IFX for longer term in future..LM sees their place quite strongly in favour, considering the involvement of LM in both projects with KAI.

TNI AU did not see they will get either F-35 or SU-57/PAKFA in near future. Thus Latest Flankers (SU-35) and latest Vipers (blk 70)..seems what they aim for as supplementary for KFX/IFX (or even fill in, if the projects thus not run as expected) in mid term Future.

Hawk is the example where eventough has lower cost to operate..but considering their limited population (especially Hawk 200)..has increasing support cost. Perhaps why TNI AU decided to run down the fleet and just buy more parts to support, instead on upgrading or refurbished them.

@sturm, the incidents on hawk 200 in BAe facilities in 90's happen before delivery. Thus BAe already fixed the damaged, due to East Timor supporters. Also mostly the damaged only superficially..mostly in paint frm what I understand.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia's Dirgantara N219 completes maiden flight | Jane's 360

https://youtu.be/etWt7N9vr_0

PT. DI (IAe), test flight its N219 light transport. This is the second DI own design plane after N250 commuter that being freeze due to 1998 Asian Financial crisis. On military uses, TNI AL already shown interest for N219 replacing their aging fleet of Australian made Nomad as light survailances patrol.

On commercial side, DI aimed N219 to enter the market that being dominated by Twin Otter class.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesia's Dirgantara N219 completes maiden flight | Jane's 360

https://youtu.be/etWt7N9vr_0

PT. DI (IAe), test flight its N219 light transport. This is the second DI own design plane after N250 commuter that being freeze due to 1998 Asian Financial crisis. On military uses, TNI AL already shown interest for N219 replacing their aging fleet of Australian made Nomad as light survailances patrol.

On commercial side, DI aimed N219 to enter the market that being dominated by Twin Otter class.

The first official flight of the N219, the moment we have wait for so many years....
After many years of delays, disappointments and an endless stream of empty newsreports, exactly 22 years and six day after the first flight of the N250 (10-08-1995).
(The N219 flew actually for the first time on 11 August during high speed taxi test...)
I saw the first photos and videos on 16 August (oh boy, the feeling after so many years) but sadly i didnt have the time to share them here in that week. Sorry about that...

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Here a good video of the production process and some tests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2H6Tqf7pWQ

And here a recent video about the orders of N219.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IniqemT_Dk
The remarkable thing is that they talk about an order of 30 aircrafts from Nusantara Buana Air (NBA), as far as i know this airline is completely bankrupt....

 

[Ananda]

Well you can't really tell about potential market, unless the Aircraft already got Internationally recognised Certification. They plan to get local certificate, and hope to work with Airbus to get Euro certificate. It's still long long way to get viable market response.

Some of local Airlines that put interest option, will undoubtly try to get some sort of incentives from government. This is also happend with Russian local airlines that order Sukhoi Super Jet, or MC-21. Same as Chinese Airliners that order C919. When state try to enhance their Aerospace industries some incentives need to given to local airlines as initial customers.

Nobody will take on your plane if the plane it self not doing well in local market first. Unless you are a proven airlines producers like Airbus and Boeing. That's why Embraer is a success story in my view. They are already passed that local credential first, to get to global market. Now Airlines did not need to see how many E Jets that Brazilian airlines order, they already now Embraer products credentials.

For that I only see Indonesia as state in this near-mid future should only support to Plane frm DI/IAe at most. This N219, and the next project N245 are already hard sell to achieve in regional/international market.

Don't see Habibie's company Regio Aviasi R80 project should also be supported by State. Even it's slightly bigger than N245, however basically those two aimed similar market. N245 come frm state owned company, and it should get priority by state if want to support. Also it's derived frm Proven CN235, thus it's easier to market compared to R80 that derived from unproven and defunct N250.

State should based their support on commercial/marketability prospect and not solely on political ego as IPTN (DI predecesor) project N250 and N2130. They should learn where build a project on one by one, step by step basis. N2130 is good concept, which later on proved by Embraer E Jets. However when N250 still need support Habibie's try to leap again with another project. Now some political faction try to insert R80 into National strategic projects. Something that mimic the mistakes done in 90's with N250 and N2130 being developed in relative same time.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Well you can't really tell about potential market, unless the Aircraft already got Internationally recognised Certification. They plan to get local certificate, and hope to work with Airbus to get Euro certificate. It's still long long way to get viable market response.

Some of local Airlines that put interest option, will undoubtly try to get some sort of incentives from government. This is also happend with Russian local airlines that order Sukhoi Super Jet, or MC-21. Same as Chinese Airliners that order C919. When state try to enhance their Aerospace industries some incentives need to given to local airlines as initial customers.

Nobody will take on your plane if the plane it self not doing well in local market first. Unless you are a proven airlines producers like Airbus and Boeing. That's why Embraer is a success story in my view. They are already passed that local credential first, to get to global market. Now Airlines did not need to see how many E Jets that Brazilian airlines order, they already now Embraer products credentials.

For that I only see Indonesia as state in this near-mid future should only support to Plane frm DI/IAe at most. This N219, and the next project N245 are already hard sell to achieve in regional/international market.

Don't see Habibie's company Regio Aviasi R80 project should also be supported by State. Even it's slightly bigger than N245, however basically those two aimed similar market. N245 come frm state owned company, and it should get priority by state if want to support. Also it's derived frm Proven CN235, thus it's easier to market compared to R80 that derived from unproven and defunct N250.

State should based their support on commercial/marketability prospect and not solely on political ego as IPTN (DI predecesor) project N250 and N2130. They should learn where build a project on one by one, step by step basis. N2130 is good concept, which later on proved by Embraer E Jets. However when N250 still need support Habibie's try to leap again with another project. Now some political faction try to insert R80 into National strategic projects. Something that mimic the mistakes done in 90's with N250 and N2130 being developed in relative same time.

Totally agree, we should first focus on the N219 and N245 programs, programs with lower costs and risks, compared to R80, N250 and N2130. Besides that, IPTN is not able to develop and produce so many different aircrafs in such a sort time.

 

[40 deg south]

Totally agree, we should first focus on the N219 and N245 programs, programs with lower costs and risks, compared to R80, N250 and N2130. Besides that, IPTN is not able to develop and produce so many different aircrafs in such a sort time.

Great to see a successful first flight for another aircraft designed in the Asia/Pacific region.

Has there been any information in Indonesia about when serial production is likely to start, or an estimated delivery date for the first aircraft?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Great to see a successful first flight for another aircraft designed in the Asia/Pacific region.

Has there been any information in Indonesia about when serial production is likely to start, or an estimated delivery date for the first aircraft?

Testing and certification is still in progress, so it will be not in a short term. I expect at least two years until initial serial production...

 

[deadlast]

Memory is a bit faded, but wasn't there issues with both the US and UK over the F-16 and Hawks respectively in the early 90's??

I seem to remember that US placed sanctions (arms embargo?) and the UK too in regard to support and/or for additional Hawks.

I do recalled that UK did try to block Hawks delivery to Indonesia at the time, I'm not sure its because of Aceh or East Timor issues?

They abandoned the plane in the middle of ferry flight to Indonesia, it was by the time they do a stopover in Thailand the UK gov? told their delivery team to left the plane and go home immediately iirc.

 

[Ananda]

SU-35 saga continue..

The Indonesian SU-35 procurement saga seems still continue:

November, Indonesia dan Rusia Tanda Tangani Kontrak Pembelian 11 Sukhoi - Kompas.com

20th November, an Article in Kompas online stated Minister of Defence statement that contract for procurement 11 SU-35 will be signed in November.

Kemahalan, Pemerintah Nego Ulang Harga Barter 11 Sukhoi - Kompas.com

Two days latter, another article in same Kompas online stated Deputy Minister of Trade statement that the Government want to 'renegotiate' SU-35 deal on the ground that the individual price of SU-35 is still to high..

Geezzss...I hate going politics in this thread..but really this shown after close to 4 years in power, this administrations still shown lack of coordination between ministry. Same thing that they shown since this administration come to power.

It had been indicated the price of one SU-35 is the range of USD 90 mio+, but somehow someone or some party whispering to this administration that the price is actually USD 45mio-USD 65mio..(which coincidently is the range that similar to price range of SU-30MK2 that being procured by previous administration)..

I mean..the price matter should be talked in previous negotiation and not on final stages of procurement process..this shown how amateurish behaviour of this adminstration..and their supporters (known as Jokowow fans club in here)..still believe this amateurish administration is the best administrations on Indonesian history..simply because thay already 'amazed' by Jokowi profiles..

Simply a mess if this turn out to be true..If they don't want to procured SU-35 and prefered another Fighter..simply stated from begining..geeezs this adminstration's track record on defense procurement turn out worse than Philipines..

 

[r0m8470]

The Indonesian SU-35 procurement saga seems still continue:

November, Indonesia dan Rusia Tanda Tangani Kontrak Pembelian 11 Sukhoi - Kompas.com

20th November, an Article in Kompas online stated Minister of Defence statement that contract for procurement 11 SU-35 will be signed in November.

Kemahalan, Pemerintah Nego Ulang Harga Barter 11 Sukhoi - Kompas.com

Two days latter, another article in same Kompas online stated Deputy Minister of Trade statement that the Government want to 'renegotiate' SU-35 deal on the ground that the individual price of SU-35 is still to high..

Geezzss...I hate going politics in this thread..but really this shown after close to 4 years in power, this administrations still shown lack of coordination between ministry. Same thing that they shown since this administration come to power.

It had been indicated the price of one SU-35 is the range of USD 90 mio+, but somehow someone or some party whispering to this administration that the price is actually USD 45mio-USD 65mio..(which coincidently is the range that similar to price range of SU-30MK2 that being procured by previous administration)..

I mean..the price matter should be talked in previous negotiation and not on final stages of procurement process..this shown how amateurish behaviour of this adminstration..and their supporters (known as Jokowow fans club in here)..still believe this amateurish administration is the best administrations on Indonesian history..simply because thay already 'amazed' by Jokowi profiles..

Simply a mess if this turn out to be true..If they don't want to procured SU-35 and prefered another Fighter..simply stated from begining..geeezs this adminstration's track record on defense procurement turn out worse than Philipines..

Ananda - how much is that driven by lack of coordination, or a 3rd party wanted to insert something or be involved in the deal? I know the latter part smells like conspiracy paranoia, but anecdotally, such things are common in Indonesian government procurement.

I do agree with you that Jokowi administration has not shown a lot of coherence and hollistic planning, but could that be a function of the current admin put higher priorities on non-defence procurement and projects?

The reality is - Indonesian defence procurement has always been murky, not to mention corrupt, and half baked (how many fitted-for-but-not-with items, too many). The current admin has opportunities to show that it does not have to be that way, but so far, they have come up short.

 

[Ananda]

Well, not much murkier than most of developing countries defense procurement deal. Take a look with rest of ASEAN, controversional Scorpene deal, and Polish MBT in Malaysia, Thailand submarine deal with China that undercut proven German Subs that Thai Navy really want, Vietnam defence procurement that can suddenly pop up with fund that not originally budgeted in defence budget, and don't talk about Philipine's ones..Only Singapore in wholle Asean that has clear structured defence budgeting, procurement process.

Still the subsequent Admin in Indonesia has try to make clearer defense procurement process. Begin with previous Admin that try more structured process with emphasis on G to G process, instead relly on multiple intermediary agents. Theoritically, this has been follow through by this Admin, eventough involvement of Agents still exist. However what I'm getting at, this Admin despite it's pledge on more transparant and spedier process, turn out not get much procurement deal being done. Much of big items deal, like Leopard2 MBT, Ceasar 155 gun, Towed Howitser, Shorad SAM, PKR10514 light frigates, Corvettes, LPD, LST, RAS equiped Tanker, F-16, C-295, ASW choper, etc..all originating with contracts and deals made by previous Admin. Whille their own originating deals, much endured prollonged decision making process that in fact making it murkier than previous admin.

The way they are doing the deal in fact shown questionable multiple parties involvement. Take a look back to this SU-35 deal. Ministry of defences sould hold the control on the deal, whille involvement of Trade Ministry should only control the counter trade aspects of the deal, and not the procurement deal it self. But take a look of those two contradicting statement. Defence Ministry says practically the deal has been agreed and contactual process is iminent, while the Trade Ministry simply say..hold on..no deal is being finish..we want to renegotiate..

This going to make potential confusion on any future procurement defense items..and mockery to the process. The regulation stated defense deal in the realm of Defense Ministry..and why on sudden that Trade Ministry that should only handle counter trade part of the deal can have a 'veto' on the defense deal ?

Why actually happen ??..well it can be some parties want to get more involvement in counter trade deal..can it also some party still want to scuttle SU-35 deal and put another fighter instead..it can be other reasons..but what matter is it become more and more murkier and unprofessional process. Talking about renegotiating the deal based only on prices in wikipedia ? Come on..that a very 'stupid Joke' and it come out from a high rangking official in this Adminstrations..shown the quality of decision making process in this Adminstration in fact regressing instead improving from previous admin (like many Jokowi supporter try to potrait in media's)..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I do recalled that UK did try to block Hawks delivery to Indonesia at the time, I'm not sure its because of Aceh or East Timor issues?

They abandoned the plane in the middle of ferry flight to Indonesia, it was by the time they do a stopover in Thailand the UK gov? told their delivery team to left the plane and go home immediately iirc.

Yes, that's correctly. From which i remember it was in 1999, during the Timor-Timur issues.

The Indonesian SU-35 procurement saga seems still continue:

November, Indonesia dan Rusia Tanda Tangani Kontrak Pembelian 11 Sukhoi - Kompas.com

20th November, an Article in Kompas online stated Minister of Defence statement that contract for procurement 11 SU-35 will be signed in November.

Kemahalan, Pemerintah Nego Ulang Harga Barter 11 Sukhoi - Kompas.com

Two days latter, another article in same Kompas online stated Deputy Minister of Trade statement that the Government want to 'renegotiate' SU-35 deal on the ground that the individual price of SU-35 is still to high..

Geezzss...I hate going politics in this thread..but really this shown after close to 4 years in power, this administrations still shown lack of coordination between ministry. Same thing that they shown since this administration come to power.

It had been indicated the price of one SU-35 is the range of USD 90 mio+, but somehow someone or some party whispering to this administration that the price is actually USD 45mio-USD 65mio..(which coincidently is the range that similar to price range of SU-30MK2 that being procured by previous administration)..

I mean..the price matter should be talked in previous negotiation and not on final stages of procurement process..this shown how amateurish behaviour of this adminstration..and their supporters (known as Jokowow fans club in here)..still believe this amateurish administration is the best administrations on Indonesian history..simply because thay already 'amazed' by Jokowi profiles..

Simply a mess if this turn out to be true..If they don't want to procured SU-35 and prefered another Fighter..simply stated from begining..geeezs this adminstration's track record on defense procurement turn out worse than Philipines..

Sad but true, i cant explain it better.
If these professional negotiators want to get a state of the art aircraft like the Su-35 for the price of a Su-30MK, they will also get a completely stripped off Su-35 with the capacity of a Su-27SKM, maybe also without spareparts and some important components.

But here some articles from last year.

It seems that the current amazing administration has ordered three Eurostar E3000 military communication satellites from Airbus Group.

http://www.indomiliter.com/2019-satelit-militer-indonesia-resmi-mengorbit-di-luar-angkasa/
http://www.indomiliter.com/eurostar-e3000-platform-satelit-komunikasi-untuk-militer-indonesia/

 

[Ananda]

Got this from internet and local military forum. Seems Indonesian Army Apache in final preparation test by Boeing before sending to the users.