Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

Some new photos of Indonesian Army Aviation Attack Helicopters elements (AH-64 and MI-35). Got this frm several on line media like Antara, Akurat and Sindo.

Interesting comment frm head of Army Aviation (TNI AD Penerbad), that MI-35 will create hybrid sq with Mi-17V thus create hybrid of Attack-Combat Support sq frm Russian origin. This seems create same sense, since both MI-35 and MI-17 share logistics like engine thus the sq build around commonality on logistics support.

Thus potentially AH-64 will also be paired with US origin helicopter to create Attack-Combat Support hybrid sq of US origin. At this moment the Army Aviation head stated it will be paired with Bell 412.

Indonesian Army Aviation tendency to have mixed US and Russian Helicopter, seems will also potentially being done for Heavy Lift sq with Chinook and MI-26 as the mix.

Note:
The Head Army Aviation shown in Apache with Elbit helmet..
Don't know if this being reported as made in Philipines

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

1st Batch AH-64E TNI-AD Aviation

First AH-64E Apache Guardian for Indonesia arrives from US

First batch of Indonesian Army AH-64E Apache has arived yesterday in Army Aviation AB in Semarang Central Java.

According to local forum that witness the arival, the first batch consist of 3 AH-64E which transported by one C-17 Globemaster. Those 8 AH-64E will reported create hybrid attack sq with 5(or 6?) Mi-35 currently in TNI-AD Aviation (Penerbad) inventory.

It's been speculated that eventually Penerbad will have one full sq of AH-64E and one sq of Mi-35 as the plan Army development. However personally I do have doubt on further acquisition of Mi-35, since the Army seems prefered more Mi-17V.

As far as i know Penerbad has 5 Mi-35Ps.
I often see Indonesian AH-64Es without the Longbow Radar, is it not yet installed, or did we ordered downgraded stuff?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Some new photos of Indonesian Army Aviation Attack Helicopters elements (AH-64 and MI-35). Got this frm several on line media like Antara, Akurat and Sindo.

Interesting comment frm head of Army Aviation (TNI AD Penerbad), that MI-35 will create hybrid sq with Mi-17V thus create hybrid of Attack-Combat Support sq frm Russian origin. This seems create same sense, since both MI-35 and MI-17 share logistics like engine thus the sq build around commonality on logistics support.

Thus potentially AH-64 will also be paired with US origin helicopter to create Attack-Combat Support hybrid sq of US origin. At this moment the Army Aviation head stated it will be paired with Bell 412.

Indonesian Army Aviation tendency to have mixed US and Russian Helicopter, seems will also potentially being done for Heavy Lift sq with Chinook and MI-26 as the mix.

Note:
The Head Army Aviation shown in Apache with Elbit helmet..
Don't know if this being reported as made in Philipines

Thank you for sharing, i wonder why our government has ordered Elbit helmets, i can not believe that the Americans do not produce their own helmets.

Still waiting for the Su-35 contract.... Soal Barter Sukhoi dengan Hasil Kebun, Kemendag: Bolanya di Kemenhan

Well, anyway, according to Ananda's favourite defence minister, the Su-35s will be well-equipped with weapons. Hopefully it will be more than just the 30 mm gun and some dumb free-fall bombs.
Su-35 Combat Jets For Indonesia Will be Well-equipped With Weapons: Defense Minister


Until now no any news about the A400M, right?

 

[Ananda]

I think I have put a picture in this thread before of Indonesian Apache still in Boeing facility with longbow radar. Based on US defense procurement sites (DSCA), Indonesia order 8 AH-64E type with 4 longbow radar.

Based on specs, we ordered standard AH-64E specs. As for Elbit helmet..this is type of Helmet that being used for integrating apache system. Definetely used by Israel Apache and if not mistaken also by Singapore ones. Don't know if US Army used it too..

As for SU-35 deal..well god knows how this going turn out.
The law said on defense procurement..either you got ToT frm supplier or part of defense deal has too be compensate with counter trade deal.

ToT does not mean the supplier will give you under license job..most of ToT involved with the supplier help local industry on maintenance and heavy service job. Example on Leo2 deal, Rheinmettal then also made separate deal with Pindad on support and ammo manufacturing.

Russia not big on this kind of ToT from what I gather (more precise Sukhoi is not that big on ToT arangement), thus they have to compensate with counter trade deal..which frm what I heard..Russia is not that enthusiast on that. This is what drag down..but in my oppinion this has too smooth out before,

For A400M, no add news except what previously being discuss, that AirForce planners still hoping for C-130J, and if A400M being procured, it will be using fund not frm Defense Budget..
Well..anything can turn out differently than originally plan on this administration..

Add:
Picture Indonesian Army Apache with AN/APG 78 Longbow Radar.

 

[Ananda]

Februari, Kontrak Pembelian 11 Shukoi Dengan Rusia Diteken

From Rakyat Merdeka online (sorry in Indonesian)..show the latest 'akan' (or will be) statement frm Indonesian Defense Minister on Su-35 procurement saga..

This minister seems so sure of his political 'support' that he continue make public statement on defense procurement contract..which then latter on being reinstated on 'latter' target date by him self..

Now he latest 'akan' statement stated that the contract will be (or 'akan') signed by next month. However he still say that the Russian will still delivered the Aircraft in 2019..or 'two' years after contract..same delivery target date when he told media that the contract would be signed last year..

He then 'boasted' his accomplishment on reducing the individual price frm USD 150 mio to USD 90 mio..without explaining whether the price tag still referred to 'same' specs and support..

Honestly..if some how this administration win another term..and he still be used as defense minister..I don't know how they can still say to public..they are serious on defense development..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Februari, Kontrak Pembelian 11 Shukoi Dengan Rusia Diteken

From Rakyat Merdeka online (sorry in Indonesian)..show the latest 'akan' (or will be) statement frm Indonesian Defense Minister on Su-35 procurement saga..

This minister seems so sure of his political 'support' that he continue make public statement on defense procurement contract..which then latter on being reinstated on 'latter' target date by him self..

Now he latest 'akan' statement stated that the contract will be (or 'akan') signed by next month. However he still say that the Russian will still delivered the Aircraft in 2019..or 'two' years after contract..same delivery target date when he told media that the contract would be signed last year..

He then 'boasted' his accomplishment on reducing the individual price frm USD 150 mio to USD 90 mio..without explaining whether the price tag still referred to 'same' specs and support..

Honestly..if some how this administration win another term..and he still be used as defense minister..I don't know how they can still say to public..they are serious on defense development..

Completely hopeless. Still the same statements as last year, so actually there is no progress at all.

And how about the KFX-program?
The last information i can get is from these websites...
ADEX 2017: KAI refining KFX configuration ahead of key milestones | Jane's 360
http://aviationweek.com/awin/kai-proposes-smaller-kf-x-design

And there is some info here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAI_KF-X#Indonesian_investment_in_the_KF-X/IF-X

" Postponements and Delays
The KAI-KF-X project had a long history of delays and postponements since it was first announced in March 2001 by South Korean President Kim Dae-Jung After several failed attempts to get the Sweden, Turkey, and the United States to join the project, it was only in June 2010 that South Korea suceeded to get Indonesia joined the project, the only country to be a JV partner. However three years later, on March 1, 2013, South Korea postponed the project on hold for 18 months, due to financial and the election of the new South Korean President Park Geun-hye. Indonesia had since paid $165 million of the then DAPA’s estimated 6 billion won (US5.5 billion). Reuters however reported that some analysts said the project could cost up to $8 billion,[47] which meant Indonesia may eventually have to pay $$1.6bn to South Korea.[48]


US refused advanced radar export to Indonesia
On February 8, 2017, the Indonesian Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs Abdurrahman Mohammad Fachir said the project was further delayed because the U.S. refused to allow the South Korean permission to grant export license for four key technologies -active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, infrared search and track (IRST) system, electronic optics targeting pod (EOTGP) and advanced radio frequency (RF) jamming system. South Korea will installed locally-made replacements on the KF-X instead of the advanced American components.[49][50]


Financial Problems
Financial disputes arose when on November 1, 2017, a member of the South Korean National Assembly Defense Committee, Kim Jong-Dae stated that non-payment of an overdue contractual payment by Indonesia will further delay the development and production schedules.[51][52]


He stated that, based on documents from the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) of the Ministry of National Defense (South Korea), the Indonesia's government-owned defence firm PT. Dirgantara Indonesia/Indonesian Aerospace (PTDI), a project partner, had failed to pay the remaining allotted 138.9 billion won (US$124.5 million) to Seoul as end-October 2017. Under the joint agreement signed in January 2016, Indonesia, through PTDI, will pay 20 percent (US$1.33bn) of the cost in the development of the KAI KF-X program, while KAI pays 20 percent and the South Korean government pays the remaining 60 percent(US$4.8bn).


Kim Jong-Dae added that the "Indonesian government had officially disclosed its difficulty in paying 138.9 billion won in late September after it failed to include the money in its budget finalized in August" 2017.


But DAPA denied knowledge of the Indonesian payment problem and stated that South Korean president Moon Jae-in will discuss the payment issue with the Indonesian president Joko Widodo in their summit in Jakarta on November 8, 2017.[53]


According to Indonesian Finance Minister, Indonesian Minister of defense didnt allocate the fund on 2017 state budget due to previous false understanding that it should be paid out side defense budget since it is G to G agreement. So The problem is more on administrative failure than anything else. After knowing the matter, the government want to add the KFX fund but they need to pass the parliament first to get the green light[54] "

So there are three things which slow down the project.
- South-Korean government wants a heavier twin engine design with internal weapon bay, while KAI suggests a lighter single engine variant.
- Indonesian government still doesn't know from which budget they have to support this program.
- The unwillingness of the American government to let the Indonesians get some advanced stuff.

So this program will stuck for ever or will be terminated at all, if these problems are not solved.

 

[ADMk2]

Completely hopeless. Still the same statements as last year, so actually there is no progress at all.

And how about the KFX-program?
The last information i can get is from these websites...
ADEX 2017: KAI refining KFX configuration ahead of key milestones | Jane's 360
KAI Proposes Smaller KF-X Design

And there is some info here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAI_KF-X#Indonesian_investment_in_the_KF-X/IF-X

" Postponements and Delays
The KAI-KF-X project had a long history of delays and postponements since it was first announced in March 2001 by South Korean President Kim Dae-Jung After several failed attempts to get the Sweden, Turkey, and the United States to join the project, it was only in June 2010 that South Korea suceeded to get Indonesia joined the project, the only country to be a JV partner. However three years later, on March 1, 2013, South Korea postponed the project on hold for 18 months, due to financial and the election of the new South Korean President Park Geun-hye. Indonesia had since paid $165 million of the then DAPA’s estimated 6 billion won (US5.5 billion). Reuters however reported that some analysts said the project could cost up to $8 billion,[47] which meant Indonesia may eventually have to pay $$1.6bn to South Korea.[48]


US refused advanced radar export to Indonesia
On February 8, 2017, the Indonesian Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs Abdurrahman Mohammad Fachir said the project was further delayed because the U.S. refused to allow the South Korean permission to grant export license for four key technologies -active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, infrared search and track (IRST) system, electronic optics targeting pod (EOTGP) and advanced radio frequency (RF) jamming system. South Korea will installed locally-made replacements on the KF-X instead of the advanced American components.[49][50]


Financial Problems
Financial disputes arose when on November 1, 2017, a member of the South Korean National Assembly Defense Committee, Kim Jong-Dae stated that non-payment of an overdue contractual payment by Indonesia will further delay the development and production schedules.[51][52]


He stated that, based on documents from the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) of the Ministry of National Defense (South Korea), the Indonesia's government-owned defence firm PT. Dirgantara Indonesia/Indonesian Aerospace (PTDI), a project partner, had failed to pay the remaining allotted 138.9 billion won (US$124.5 million) to Seoul as end-October 2017. Under the joint agreement signed in January 2016, Indonesia, through PTDI, will pay 20 percent (US$1.33bn) of the cost in the development of the KAI KF-X program, while KAI pays 20 percent and the South Korean government pays the remaining 60 percent(US$4.8bn).


Kim Jong-Dae added that the "Indonesian government had officially disclosed its difficulty in paying 138.9 billion won in late September after it failed to include the money in its budget finalized in August" 2017.


But DAPA denied knowledge of the Indonesian payment problem and stated that South Korean president Moon Jae-in will discuss the payment issue with the Indonesian president Joko Widodo in their summit in Jakarta on November 8, 2017.[53]


According to Indonesian Finance Minister, Indonesian Minister of defense didnt allocate the fund on 2017 state budget due to previous false understanding that it should be paid out side defense budget since it is G to G agreement. So The problem is more on administrative failure than anything else. After knowing the matter, the government want to add the KFX fund but they need to pass the parliament first to get the green light[54] "

So there are three things which slow down the project.
- South-Korean government wants a heavier twin engine design with internal weapon bay, while KAI suggests a lighter single engine variant.
- Indonesian government still doesn't know from which budget they have to support this program.
- The unwillingness of the American government to let the Indonesians get some advanced stuff.

So this program will stuck for ever or will be terminated at all, if these problems are not solved.

The Americans are very willing to allow the Indonesians to get some ‘advanced’ stuff. Look at your F-16 Block 52’s and AH-64E Apache helos and the very ‘advanced stuff’ they are equipped with.

What they are not willing to allow is for South Korea or Indonesia to sell US systems fitted to KF-X fighters in potential military acquisition competitions, against US companies.

The KF-X will I imagine be competing against US made aircraft in years to come. It is not in the US’ commercial interest to go into those competitions pitching their aircraft against foreign aircraft fitted with the same radar, EW, EO/IR targetting systems, IRST and quite probably weapon systems as they are offering...

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia puts KC-46A Pegasus, Airbus A330 in frame for aerial tanker requirement | Jane's 360

Indonesian AF has already ask Mindef for 2 tankers on the class of Airbus MRTT or KC-46. I do believe the odds are on Airbus. With A330 maintenance infrastructure already build in country and in Singapore, plus Airbus has more clout with DI (always a factor in Airframe procurement)..the idea on putting KC-46 is more as procedural steps where any procurement has to get comparison.

Also with Boeing keep delaying induction of KC-46, any order for KC-46 will be prioritise for USAF urgent need on replacing KC-135.

@Sandhi..I do agree with ADMk2..eventough KFX/IFX is not build to directly compete with F-35, But if the project do manage to get end product as designed...it will have relative close capability to F-35, thus potentially will distrube F-35 market in 2030 above.
In some way, this like what US see Lavi project..they see it as potential disruption to F-16 market.

Korea already developing AESA with help from European supplier. This will not provide AESA that in par to F-35's one...but with potential price that are considerably cheaper than F-35, this can also take some slice of potential F-35 market..And US want to get as wide as possible market like F-16 enjoying right now..to get F-35 as economically possible.

 

[John Fedup]

The MRTT is a working product so it should be a shoe-in. More capacity along with the existing support infrastructure you mention. Had it not been for Japan's significant manufacturing content in the KC-46, I think the MRTT would have been welcomed by the JDF as well. From my perspective, nothing is certain with Canadian military procurement, but I am pretty confident any AAR upgrade by the RCAF won't be the KC-46!

 

[kaz]

The MRTT is a working product so it should be a shoe-in. More capacity along with the existing support infrastructure you mention. Had it not been for Japan's significant manufacturing content in the KC-46, I think the MRTT would have been welcomed by the JDF as well. From my perspective, nothing is certain with Canadian military procurement, but I am pretty confident any AAR upgrade by the RCAF won't be the KC-46!

Excuse me for going off topic, but not exactly in the case of Japan, AFAIK KC-46 was preferred because support for the Ospreys is a given.

 

[Ananda]

@kaz..perhaps it's not entirely out of topic..the package deal is always part of large defence procurement. I also being reminded by local sources in Indonesia (when talking to them why not just go with MRTT and no need to look at KC 46), that Boeing already went on some high level lobbying on packages of Second Batch of AH-64E, CH-47, and KC 46. The AF Chief will not talking on KC-46 if not some sort of Boeing offered already come out (since previously the AF only talk on MRTT, with Airbus influence already shown)..

Both MRTT and KC 46 is still have large portion on commercial airliner support base to relly on..thus both shown economically based operrating and maintenance cost. Airbus also frm what I gather offering package of A-400M and MRTT plus substantial IAe/DI involvement on maintenance even upgrade jobs. That Local Industry involvement on Airbus side offer, that perhaps will be hard for Boeing to match.

It's been heard that on the time frame of 2019-24 (where the procurement of both tankers and heavy transport being sloted), Ministries of Finance, Defence and State owned Enterprises already calculating the MRTT will be remanufactured using few ex Garuda Airlines A-330 300 that are schedulled to be replaced as the based..and MRTT ability being remanufactured using ex A-330 Airliner is one of attraction for MRTT. I don't know if KC-46 can be remanufactured from ex airliner 767 as economically like MRTT done..

 

[ASSAIL]

@kaz

It's been heard that on the time frame of 2019-24 (where the procurement of both tankers and heavy transport being sloted), Ministries of Finance, Defence and State owned Enterprises already calculating the MRTT will be remanufactured using few ex Garuda Airlines A-330 300 that are schedulled to be replaced as the based..and MRTT ability being remanufactured using ex A-330 Airliner is one of attraction for MRTT. I don't know if KC-46 can be remanufactured from ex airliner 767 as economically like MRTT done..

Which is precisely what the RAAF did with two ex QANTAS aircraft for very reasonable cost.
I don't know if there is ant limitation on airframe hours in order to do this although the QANTAS aircraft were about 8 years old when converted.
It would make sense if the Garuda airframes are able to be converted.
Maybe a member with more experience could comment on feasability of such a move?

Two ex-Qantas A330-200s to be converted to KC-30 tanker transports for RAAF

 

[Ananda]

On converting issue..something that intrique me is why Airbus only offered A-330 as based for MRTT. Why not offering A-340 too..with practically no airliner want to used second hand A-340 due to higher economic cost.. The price for second hand A-340 should be bargain compared to A-330 ones..

I read there are many reasonable airframe hours A-340 relative to A-330..since many Airliner that used them already reduced their operational before taking them out of their fleet due to economic cost..

But the economic cost between four engine A-340 and double engine A-330 that mattered to airlines, won't be to significant difference for Military usage which mostly lest frequency then Airliner..

I do believe some ex airliner A-340 being converted to freighther..
The higher cost on operating should be covered by 'discount' on acquairing the airframe compared to A-330..especially for military or cargo purposed..

 

[John Newman]

On converting issue..something that intrique me is why Airbus only offered A-330 as based for MRTT. Why not offering A-340 too..with practically no airliner want to used second hand A-340 due to higher economic cost.. The price for second hand A-340 should be bargain compared to A-330 ones..

I read there are many reasonable airframe hours A-340 relative to A-330..since many Airliner that used them already reduced their operational before taking them out of their fleet due to economic cost..

But the economic cost between four engine A-340 and double engine A-330 that mattered to airlines, won't be to significant difference for Military usage which mostly lest frequency then Airliner..

I do believe some ex airliner A-340 being converted to freighther..
The higher cost on operating should be covered by 'discount' on acquairing the airframe compared to A-330..especially for military or cargo purposed..

My understanding is that both the A330 (2 x engine) and A340 (4 x engine) share a 'common' wing structure, especially fuel plumbing, or 'provision' for fuel plumbing and mounting points too.

And the point at which the underwing pods are mounted (on the A330 based MRTT), are the 'same' mounting points where the outboard engines would be mounted on an A340. Basically a relatively simple engineering effort for the manufacturer to replace the outboard engine locations with refuelling pods.

If an A340 was chosen for conversion to an MRTT, then there would probably have to be a redesign of the wing and find a suitable location for the refuelling pods, either outside of the outboard engines, or between them and the inboard engines.

If someone wanted an A340 to be converted, then they would end up with an orphan fleet and probably have to also pay for all of the R&D costs too.

Cheers,

 

[John Newman]

Which is precisely what the RAAF did with two ex QANTAS aircraft for very reasonable cost.
I don't know if there is ant limitation on airframe hours in order to do this although the QANTAS aircraft were about 8 years old when converted.
It would make sense if the Garuda airframes are able to be converted.
Maybe a member with more experience could comment on feasability of such a move?

Two ex-Qantas A330-200s to be converted to KC-30 tanker transports for RAAF

My understanding is that the two ex Qantas birds are closely aligned (age and build times) to the same construction period as first couple of A330's converted to KC-30A's for the RAAF.

From ADF-Serials:

* A39-001 - Construction number - 747
* A39-002 - Construction number - 951
* A39-003 - Construction number - 969
* A39-004 - Construction number - 1036
* A39-005 - Construction number - 1183
* A39-006 - Construction number - 892
* A39-007 - Construction number - 898

As you can see from the Construction numbers, -006 and -007 (the ex Qantas birds) are younger than -001 and a bit older than -002.

Will be interesting, if the Australian Government eventually proceeds with the 8th and 9th airframes for the RAAF, to see if they are future 'new' build or second hand airframes from a similar time period.

Cheers,

 

[John Newman]

It's been heard that on the time frame of 2019-24 (where the procurement of both tankers and heavy transport being sloted), Ministries of Finance, Defence and State owned Enterprises already calculating the MRTT will be remanufactured using few ex Garuda Airlines A-330 300 that are schedulled to be replaced as the based..and MRTT ability being remanufactured using ex A-330 Airliner is one of attraction for MRTT. I don't know if KC-46 can be remanufactured from ex airliner 767 as economically like MRTT done..

Couple of points, so far all A330 MRTT's have been based on the -200 not the -300 airframe, not to say it can't be done, but anyone going for a -300 conversion is probably going to be up for additional costs to certify the conversion, and have an orphan fleet too in some respects (might start out cheaper, but could end up more expensive in the long run?).

On the second point, can a B767 be remanufactured into a KC-46? Probably not.

But can a B767 be converted to a KC-767? Yes it can.

If Indonesia wanted to go down the 'KC-767' path, then the logical solution would be to follow what Colombia and Brazil have done, and that is to have Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) do a conversion for them.

 

[Ananda]

A330-300 is frm what I heard is being discussed as potential based for Indonesian MRTT deal, since the first batch of Garuda A330 is from 300 series..If not mistaken Garuda A330 procured in 3 batches, first 300 series, then 200, and latest another batch of 300.

Again this is some calculation they are toying about, considering Airbus offered upgrade from ex Garuda A330 (to reduce) procurement cost thus made their offer more attractive. If any deal on tankers come out..it will be on 2019-24 window. For me, just curious how Boeing will try to compete Airbus deal, not only in potential Indonesian deal, but also other potential tanker market they will faced with Airbus as competitor. KC 767 won't be as attractive as MRTT, but facing MRTT with KC 46 means mostly fighting only with new airframe, while Airbus can offered both new build or upgrade airframes,

 

[swerve]

IAI has sold 767 tanker conversions based on both the 767-200ER (like the Boeing KC-767), to Colombia, & the 767-300ER, currently in progress for Brazil. That suggests that basing a conversion on a slightly different model of the basic airliner isn't too difficult or expensive. The numbers are small: one IAI converted 767-200ER, three (with an option for a fourth) 767-300ERs.

All of these airliner models are in civilian service in large numbers.

 

[ngatimozart]

IAI has sold 767 tanker conversions based on both the 767-200ER (like the Boeing KC-767), to Colombia, & the 767-300ER, currently in progress for Brazil. That suggests that basing a conversion on a slightly different model of the basic airliner isn't too difficult or expensive. The numbers are small: one IAI converted 767-200ER, three (with an option for a fourth) 767-300ERs.

All of these airliner models are in civilian service in large numbers.

The JASDF also operate 4 KC-767. They're replacing them with the KC-46.

 

[Ananda]

That's the point I try to make on my latest post. KC 46 is new airframe, while KC 767 is conversion. However KC 767 based on what I read so far, not in par on capabilities with KC 46.

While MRTT can resulted from both new airframes or conversion. However using MRTT standard, is already on level playing field with KC 46.
In other word A330 potentially has better conversion program, then 767.