Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Inshore has always been domestic, it's kind of the whole point and in the terminology, inshore, ie close to NZ. We have always had some form of Inshore patrolling capability and the IPVs are in fact a vast improvement over the IPCs before them, the lake class before them and so on and their range and sea handling has only improved and increased. By moving the goalposts of the term inshore further offshore does not then make the vessel unsuitable for "inshore" patrolling it just expects more from technically the same. They are improved in their role, not an OPVs role. We don't send the ANZACs into antarctic waters and and then say they are unsuitable frigates when they inevitably struggle. The IPVs are now not too large for some close inshore work as they now also have multiple RHIBs, much like the OPVs just cheaper to operate.

I still cannot see what exactly has vastly changed in terms of inshore patrolling from decades gone by and in fact as MrC has pointed out there are vastly more craft in the "inshore" spectrum (1000+) and the further offshore you go the ships capable of operating in these margins drop off dramatically (double digits). Rather moot though as any vessel can fish close to NZs coastline, large or small, they just have to sail there to do it. The larger ships that account for most of the catches actually have other monitoring measures such as a seconded onboard fisheries officer and cameras able to be accessed from mainland NZ. It's all well and good to say it should be the job of fisheries and customs to do these jobs locally themselves but if they do not have the ships to do this then it's all rather pointless and it does not get much easier then essentially having a vessel provided for you, and yet last reports stated clearly they did not achieve their allocated patrol hours as they could not get the time on the naval vessels in the first place. Having 50% of the IPV fleet tied alongside and essentially mothballed probably does not help.

I still think it is merely a cost cutting measure fuelled by lack of funding, diminishing of resources and shortage and retention of key personnell driving this particular "re-focussing" and all smoke and mirrors trying to save face. Blaming the equipment for something it was not designed to do is merely a cop out and changing the guidelines to suit the scenario is alot easier then funding the problem to sort the issues. This just smells of another ACF type axing whilst trying to sugar coat it with the promise of another OPV instead whereas that should already be in lieu of the lost frigates (1 OPV is not the equivalent of 1 frigate in my books).

If a comparitively large organisation that is essentially the subject matter experts of all things nautical with motivated pers to match cannot adequately man a few inshore patrol vessels then how exactly is civilian outfit supposed to find the equivalent numbers to fill the void with a similar albeit less technical capability? Has'nt yet and these IPVs have been sitting idle for more than a few years now, surely enough time to have implemented a plan B at least.
Wow, thank you RegR for having the balls to say what I really, really have been thinking for some time! The Navy is hamstrung by political indifference and in return spouts some of the most cringe-inducing PR waffle to justify the position they're forced into.... even though I doubt they really believe what they're spouting!

:jump:jump:jump:jump:jump:jump:jump
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The IPVs are now not too large for some close inshore work as they now also have multiple RHIBs, much like the OPVs just cheaper to operate.
Operating the fleet of four IPV's consumed more naval resources than the two OPV's in terms of manpower and fiscal budget. Yet the OPV's could do every thing that the IPV's could do yet much more and more effectively. RHIB's from the IPV's or OPV's for boarding ops but they are not there for autonomous patrolling in lieu of a patrol vessels.

I still cannot see what exactly has vastly changed in terms of inshore patrolling from decades gone by and in fact as MrC has pointed out there are vastly more craft in the "inshore" spectrum (1000+) and the further offshore you go the ships capable of operating in these margins drop off dramatically (double digits).
What has changed is that in the 1970s we had 14000 licensed Fishers mostly inshore and enclosed waters, but that got down to a 2400 by 1983 and 1400 by 1986 the under QMS regime. In fact we are down to 1100 this year of which 115 are deep sea vessels, the inshore spectrum are quite a few hundred and the local vessels going beyond 12nm through to the 50nm Coastal limit make up the remainder but are less than 30m.

The operational cost is actually not that much different between the IPV and the OPV. The inshore spectrum 0-12nm NZTL dominated numerically by small local vessels which quite often fish close inshore around 3nm and enclosed waters numbering in the mid hundreds (But also this area does include the majority of the 250000 private vessels used by recreational fishers - a 55m IPV is not really the most cost effective solution to deal with this).

What has also changed is ISR - which is vastly superior and can inform the NZ Government and making monitoring of vessel movements much more precise than patrol patterns of the old Moa Class days. Also coming on line is short range airborne ISR via the KingAir - which should have happened 15 years ago.

Rather moot though as any vessel can fish close to NZs coastline, large or small, they just have to sail there to do it.
No that is not the case there is actually a demarcation line at the 50nm coastal limit based on factors such as vessel size, power output, master & crew qualification /SCTW. 3500GWT FFV's are restricted from playing within the close inshore zone. For example vessels over 40m cannot enter the NZTL to fish.

The larger ships that account for most of the catches actually have other monitoring measures such as a seconded onboard fisheries officer and cameras able to be accessed from mainland NZ.
Only about 30% of FCV's have an Observer. Yes there are cameras these days and ALB's mandatory since 1993 - but there are non QMS foreign vessels which transit into the EEZ from international waters which are the illegals or IUU's. That is the real problem - environmentally and in economic loss. Over 50& of the total catch by tonnage is by FCV's. IPV's are not much help as experience has shown.

It's all well and good to say it should be the job of fisheries and customs to do these jobs locally themselves but if they do not have the ships to do this then it's all rather pointless and it does not get much easier then essentially having a vessel provided for you, and yet last reports stated clearly they did not achieve their allocated patrol hours as they could not get the time on the naval vessels in the first place. Having 50% of the IPV fleet tied alongside and essentially mothballed probably does not help.
More appropriate vessels should be built for Customs, Fisheries and Maritime Police to monitor and respond to the close inshore and inshore role out to 12/24nm and hopefully Customs gets a couple more Hawk V types and FishServe look at a few as well.

But more appropriate vessels built for the RNZN to deal with and beyond the 50nm Coastal zone is where the issue is. It is good to see that a SOPV vessel is coming down the track. Another 4th OPV would be better - and there is a better chance of that happening if all the IPV's went.

Customs want more time on OPV's to the north and FishServe want more time on OPV's to the West and South. Two IPV's alongside are not much help - because they do not really serve the target goals of what Fish and Customs really want.

I still think it is merely a cost cutting measure fuelled by lack of funding, diminishing of resources and shortage and retention of key personnell driving this particular "re-focussing" and all smoke and mirrors trying to save face. Blaming the equipment for something it was not designed to do is merely a cop out and changing the guidelines to suit the scenario is alot easier then funding the problem to sort the issues. This just smells of another ACF type axing whilst trying to sugar coat it with the promise of another OPV instead whereas that should already be in lieu of the lost frigates (1 OPV is not the equivalent of 1 frigate in my books).
The same kind of cost cutting that is seeing $800m likely to be spent on the next three RNZN vessels. One of which Aotearoa is the virtually the same amount of money we spent on the whole of Protector Project.

If a comparitively large organisation that is essentially the subject matter experts of all things nautical with motivated pers to match cannot adequately man a few inshore patrol vessels then how exactly is civilian outfit supposed to find the equivalent numbers to fill the void with a similar albeit less technical capability? Has'nt yet and these IPVs have been sitting idle for more than a few years now, surely enough time to have implemented a plan B at least.
There really is only a difference of 13 crew between the baseline manning of a 55m IPV (22 RNZN crew and 4 Govt) and an 85m OPV without air element (35 RNZN crew plus 4 Govt). So crew numbers wise we have been trying to man effectively nearly 5 OPV equivalents. IPV's are about 2/3's of the operational cost of an OPV but offer about a 1/3 of the patrol capability. That is the glaring problem.

Frankly the sooner the Navy is divested of the inshore (0-12/24nm NZTL / NZCZ) policing role and we have the enforcement done by a civilian government agency(s) MPI/Customs/Police the better as they have the direct statuary jurisdiction and powers of enforcement, arrest and prosecution. Not Navy - they are just the water taxi! If one Protector IPV is kept for basic sea training like Kahu and possibly another is kept for the VR and Fleet Reserve then that is fine.

The Navy needs to concentrate on military maritime matters well beyond the NZTL zone. Keeping the IPV's only diverts resources not just fiscal but significantly human resources away from its core military business and the business end of the EEZ. The Customs and FishServe roles inshore can more effectively be handled by them and hopefully further Q-West type vessels can be procured for this - but if the problem is to be solved we really need 4 OPV's and not 4 IPV's! Navy knew this all along and are not to blame for this situation. There preference was always OPV's. But they lost that argument with the DPMC 15 years ago when the mistakes were made.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
With all that's been said about the limitations of the present OPV's Wellington and Otago, from design to construction what would those here consider improvements that should be incorporated in the next installment? As MrC has suggested a fourth OPV should be the start of a new replacement class for the existing boats and IPVs.

From my perspective I would like to suggest the following;
a) Increase in tonnage to at least 2000 tons with a margin for growth included in the design for future upgrades of systems and equipment
b) Increased size of hangar to accommodate both a naval helicopter and RPAS
c) Provision for an air weapons magazine
d) Increased main armament from the current 25mm. Personally not sure of the appropriate choice for NZ operations. I don't think 76mm is required but 40mm or 57mm would be a good start. The OTO Breda twin 40mm mount comes in a version without deck penetration.
e) Increased length to at least 90m
f) Ability to carry more 20 foot containers, TEU's. Minimum four. Either for transport of supplies and stores or as mission modules to support the littoral force when the LOSC is away or in maintenance
g) Ability to accommodate a minimum embarked force or survivors up to 30 for short durations
h) A secondary armament of at least two RC HMG with provision to allow stern facing arcs of fire. Consideration for employment of the HK auto grenade launcher.
i) Water cannon and LRAD for non lethal intervention
j) Stern ramp for underway launch and recovery of interceptor RHIB
k) At least 23 kn top speed for pursuit and rapid transit
l) Highly automated to reduce crew size
m) Provision for at least one RAS fuel receiving station
n) Consideration of participating in the RAN OPV program at the tail end of the production run

If this were to happen these would offer greater flexibility allowing the frigate force to work with other naval forces and deployed to overseas operations. With provision for a naval helicopter with air launched weapons these vessels could provide a credible defence of NZ waters from rogue vessels as a foreign naval vessel confrontation is highly unlikely.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think it's sad that they Navy isn't continuing with HMNZS Endeavour tradition. I think naming a ship after a country isn't that great an idea.
Naming her HMNZS Aotearoa is a continuation of HMS New Zealand and maintains the historical link from that ship gifted by the people of New Zealand to the Royal Navy. Navy hasn't said they will discontinue with Endeavour name yet still more ships to be brought into the fleet.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Frankly the sooner the Navy is divested of the inshore (0-12/24nm NZTL / NZCZ) policing role and we have the enforcement done by a civilian government agency(s) MPI/Customs/Police the better as they have the direct statuary jurisdiction and powers of enforcement, arrest and prosecution. Not Navy - they are just the water taxi!
Are you sure about that? When I was in a RNZN ships CO had the powers of search, seizure and arrest that MPI/Customs/Police had. Don't see why that would change.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Are you sure about that? When I was in a RNZN ships CO had the powers of search, seizure and arrest that MPI/Customs/Police had. Don't see why that would change.
The key word I used is direct NG. The linear sequence of jurisdiction and powers of enforcement, arrest and this is the key aspect prosecution. It is more watertight excuse the pun with respect to case management. There is no agency transfer.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
With all that's been said about the limitations of the present OPV's Wellington and Otago, from design to construction what would those here consider improvements that should be incorporated in the next installment? As MrC has suggested a fourth OPV should be the start of a new replacement class for the existing boats and IPVs.

From my perspective I would like to suggest the following;
a) Increase in tonnage to at least 2000 tons with a margin for growth included in the design for future upgrades of systems and equipment
b) Increased size of hangar to accommodate both a naval helicopter and RPAS
c) Provision for an air weapons magazine
d) Increased main armament from the current 25mm. Personally not sure of the appropriate choice for NZ operations. I don't think 76mm is required but 40mm or 57mm would be a good start. The OTO Breda twin 40mm mount comes in a version without deck penetration.
e) Increased length to at least 90m
f) Ability to carry more 20 foot containers, TEU's. Minimum four. Either for transport of supplies and stores or as mission modules to support the littoral force when the LOSC is away or in maintenance
g) Ability to accommodate a minimum embarked force or survivors up to 30 for short durations
h) A secondary armament of at least two RC HMG with provision to allow stern facing arcs of fire. Consideration for employment of the HK auto grenade launcher.
i) Water cannon and LRAD for non lethal intervention
j) Stern ramp for underway launch and recovery of interceptor RHIB
k) At least 23 kn top speed for pursuit and rapid transit
l) Highly automated to reduce crew size
m) Provision for at least one RAS fuel receiving station
n) Consideration of participating in the RAN OPV program at the tail end of the production run

If this were to happen these would offer greater flexibility allowing the frigate force to work with other naval forces and deployed to overseas operations. With provision for a naval helicopter with air launched weapons these vessels could provide a credible defence of NZ waters from rogue vessels as a foreign naval vessel confrontation is highly unlikely.
The Vard 7 100 OPV would come pretty close to meeting most of those requirements. There is design lineage from the current Protector OPV's. The Vard 7 ICE design which might possibly be in the mix for the SOPV would no doubt have some synergies.

Vard could even go for the trifecta with a derivative design of the Vard 9 105 multirole hydrographic and survey vessel a development of the RN Echo Class which seems to meet the LOSV criteria.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Vard 7 100 OPV would come pretty close to meeting most of those requirements. There is design lineage from the current Protector OPV's. The Vard 7 ICE design which might possibly be in the mix for the SOPV would no doubt have some synergies.

Vard could even go for the trifecta with a derivative design of the Vard 9 105 multirole hydrographic and survey vessel a development of the RN Echo Class which seems to meet the LOSV criteria.
Canadian built so will be expensive, very expensive if their local built naval acquisitions are anything to go by. Wonder if thy would be agreeable to a Korean yard license building some for NZ?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Wonder if they would be agreeable to a Korean yard license building some for NZ?
Vard are Norwegian naval architects owned by Fincanteiri and if they want the business from the NZ Government we would have to be happy with where it is built. If we wanted a Korean yard for example I am sure HHI and DSME would have something comparable to offer. Vard now have a Vietnam yard if we wanted to take advantage of lower build costs.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Vard now have a Vietnam yard if we wanted to take advantage of lower build costs.
Would be interesting to see the level of workmanship against others nations with there lower cost of building. The (MATV) MV Sycamore should be sailing for Australia next month
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Would be interesting to see the level of workmanship against others nations with there lower cost of building. The (MATV) MV Sycamore should be sailing for Australia next month
But the MATV is not a warship. Comparisons against a straight build cost for a commercial vessel that provides services by the hour cannot be compared to a build, operate and sustain budget.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
But the MATV is not a warship. Comparisons against a straight build cost for a commercial vessel that provides services by the hour cannot be compared to a build, operate and sustain budget.
While not built to mil-specific would give an indication on their level of workmanship as a guide when comparing with say the Koreans, if you parameters is just to get them builtin the cheapest yard, after all you get what you pay for, going for the cheapest builder is not always the cheapest in the long run.

GF has made some remarkes about workmanship quality from the French and Spainish when inspecting the Mistral and JC1 before chosen design was announced.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
The Vard 7 100 has a very high crew compliment of 126 which is likely related to its US CG lineage. Easy to see the Protector OPV background design.

I can't see a crew compliment that high for an OPV being considered due to the long term crewing costs. If 30 person IPV's can't be crewed can't see 126.

The design and armament looks appropriate. I see a product like this as being seen by pollies as a frigate replacement. That would be bad for the RNZN.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Vard 7 100 has a very high crew compliment of 126 which is likely related to its US CG lineage. Easy to see the Protector OPV background design.

I can't see a crew compliment that high for an OPV being considered due to the long term crewing costs. If 30 person IPV's can't be crewed can't see 126.

The design and armament looks appropriate. I see a product like this as being seen by pollies as a frigate replacement. That would be bad for the RNZN.
Yes, I think that a compliment of 126, if it is the core crew would put it out of any consideration. This number does seem excessively high by modern standards as some modern combat frigates are down in this crewing range, could it be the maximum number of people it can carry. Has anyone got any info on this?
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Naming her HMNZS Aotearoa is a continuation of HMS New Zealand and maintains the historical link from that ship gifted by the people of New Zealand to the Royal Navy. Navy hasn't said they will discontinue with Endeavour name yet still more ships to be brought into the fleet.
If it's a continuation on HMS New Zealand then it should have been called HMNZS New Zealand! Besides I've always been under the impression that it's bad luck to name a naval vessel after the country its serving.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Vard 7 100 has a very high crew compliment of 126 which is likely related to its US CG lineage. Easy to see the Protector OPV background design.

I can't see a crew compliment that high for an OPV being considered due to the long term crewing costs. If 30 person IPV's can't be crewed can't see 126.

The design and armament looks appropriate. I see a product like this as being seen by pollies as a frigate replacement. That would be bad for the RNZN.
The Vard 7 90m OPV (Samuel Beckett Class) has a core crew of 44. The 126 figure is complement of course and not core crew thus I would say that the Vard 100m variant would not be drastically different or possibly the same. In fact the Knud Rasmussen Class OPV's are core crewed the same as our current IPV's which shows how automation can make a huge difference.

As for being a 'frigate' replacement in the eyes of politicians - well there are some who would think so, but they are the opposition and have been pushing the OPV for 30 years or more. Looking at the HoR I would guess that 70 or so of the 120 MP's would be 'pro' frigate if things were within Party lines.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If it's a continuation on HMS New Zealand then it should have been called HMNZS New Zealand! Besides I've always been under the impression that it's bad luck to name a naval vessel after the country its serving.
Is it more about bad luck or that its called Aotearoa and not New Zealand? NZDF and Navy are fine with the new name end of story.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If it's a continuation on HMS New Zealand then it should have been called HMNZS New Zealand! Besides I've always been under the impression that it's bad luck to name a naval vessel after the country its serving.
HMS New Zealand served with honour and distinction during WW1 surviving it only to be broken up after the war in 1922. HMAS Australia was the same. The Battlecruiser New Zealand was the second of that name with the first being a battleship that was renamed Zealandia so that the battlecrusier bought by NZ could use that name. The third ship with the name was to have been a Malta Class carrier which was cancelled in December 1945.

I actually think Aotearoa is a good name for the ship and it will carry with it a lot of mana. I like the idea of adding new names to the fleet that reflect who we are, but I also think that previous ships names that have strong links to NZ should be reused. Endeavour and Resolution are two that should stay along with the bird, lake and province names. As an example Kiwi, Tui and Moa served with distinction in the Pacific during WW2 and whilst Achilles is the most well known for its Battle of the River Plate participation, Kiwi and Moa which were bird class minesweepers took on and sunk the surfaced J1 type IJN submarine I-1 at Guadalcanal. The I-1 was armed with two 14cm (5.5in) guns and officially the Kiwi and Moa were armed with one four inch gun, two machine guns and depth charges. Then there was the unofficial armament that was "acquired" in theatre sans paperwork and higher authority approval or knowledge. Multiple 20mm cannon, 50 cal & 30 cal machine guns liberated from damaged US liberty ships, crashed aircraft and US sources. Kiwi eventually rammed the I-1 sinking it and the resulting damage to Kiwi's bow required a return to NZ (DNB) for repairs. Therefore all the unofficial armament had to be removed and was shared amongst the Moa and Tui. :D
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
While not built to mil-specific would give an indication on their level of workmanship as a guide when comparing with say the Koreans, if you parameters is just to get them builtin the cheapest yard, after all you get what you pay for, going for the cheapest builder is not always the cheapest in the long run.

GF has made some remarkes about workmanship quality from the French and Spainish when inspecting the Mistral and JC1 before chosen design was announced.
Sorry that is a generalisation and not correct for commercial yards. The quality of build is not just due to the yard. In any commercial yard your contracted QA approach and involvement of class are critical. You can get a good and bad ship from the same commercial yard depending on how it is contracted. Some are better than others and I understand the product out of the Damen yard in Vietnam is pretty good but there is a lot of oversight from Damen and the operator.

The French build of the Mistral is not the same as it was a tie up between Russia and France for a military build.
 
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