Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
Purchase price at time of purchase was @$35 million per IPV. If internet reports of their inactivity are correct there will be remediation costs associated with selling them to anyone. I still don't understand why they are not transferred to fisheries or customs and let them deal with manning and maintenance. Government already paid for them why not use them.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
...I still don't understand why they are not transferred to fisheries or customs and let them deal with manning and maintenance. Government already paid for them why not use them.
Well you can't get into answering this without cutting straight into politics so let's not go there! The other thing is of course any options for using these vessels involves a Govt organisation of some sort finding $$$ to run from what are already generally very over-stretched budgets.

Yes there may be remediation costs with selling these but so be it - they're a good ship for Islands use and if Fiji or whoever has a use, and NZ Govt / NZDF aren't interested in using them - give the damn things away!
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Good call. I had commented earlier maybe fiji or one of the other islands could be prospective buyers, although no mention surprisingly in the defence white paper of whether they intend to replace them one for one with Opv or not?
Think the DWP is quite clear - ultimately the IPV's will go, and a (single) OPV optimised for Antartic patrol will be purchased.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Think the DWP is quite clear - ultimately the IPV's will go, and a (single) OPV optimised for Antartic patrol will be purchased.
I had interpreted that as a requirement for additional assistance with the Antarctic programme.

i dont see how one Opv can possibly cover the availability of 4 Ipv. Yes it will have greater range,capability but it cant be in four locations at once!

Shame. Yet another cut in numbers when crewing the current ones could have been addressed. Its not like we dont have the money now to do both.
 
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Novascotiaboy

Active Member
With so many civilian mariners looking for opportunities there must be a way to utilize these skill sets for constabulary purposes such as fisheries and customs ? Nothing says these vessels can't be crewed by civilian mariners and supported by government specialists. I realize dollars are tight in all sectors but what is the cost of allowing overfishing, environmental disasters and loss of life?

What would the annual operating cost of an IPV if it met its expected sea days as quoted of 290 per annum?
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
With so many civilian mariners looking for opportunities there must be a way to utilize these skill sets for constabulary purposes such as fisheries and customs ? Nothing says these vessels can't be crewed by civilian mariners and supported by government specialists. I realize dollars are tight in all sectors but what is the cost of allowing overfishing, environmental disasters and loss of life?

What would the annual operating cost of an IPV if it met its expected sea days as quoted of 290 per annum?
Exactly. If anything, the fact that two of those ipv were not being used while tens of millions of poaching per yr has been cited by customs is reprehensible.

Crewing these vessels or ideally having more than three opv split between Nz resource protection and pacific islands ect.

Without a dedicated equal number doing so locally my book leaves a big oppertunity for us kiwis to be plundered more so than it currently is for the asian offshore markets ect.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Exactly. If anything, the fact that two of those ipv were not being used while tens of millions of poaching per yr has been cited by customs is reprehensible.

Crewing these vessels or ideally having more than three opv split between Nz resource protection and pacific islands ect.

Without a dedicated equal number doing so locally my book leaves a big oppertunity for us kiwis to be plundered more so than it currently is for the asian offshore markets ect.
Totally agree, yes we are leaving the door open for being ripped off etc but unfortunately the myopic ongoing obsession in NZ is what $$$ can be saved now, a longer term view of the hidden costs never seems to be considered a major factor... all about bean counters!
 
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Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I had interpreted that as a requirement for additional assistance with the Antarctic programme.

i dont see how one Opv can possibly cover the availability of 4 Ipv. Yes it will have greater range,capability but it cant be in four locations at once!

Shame. Yet another cut in numbers when crewing the current ones could have been addressed. Its not like we dont have the money now to do both.
Yes correctly they've seen a need for additional assistance with the Antarctic programme but in terms of whether one OPV can possibly cover the availability of 4 IPV... it appears the OPV simply isn't intended to do that!

The DWP looks to be a case of refocusing away from any significant inshore Naval patrol presence, instead assuming Customs, MPI etc will take up that slack (even though I doubt they are/will be resourced to do so). The focus will move more to offshore presence - assisted by UAV & King Air support I hope.

If you haven't already guessed the loss of the IPV really irritates me - poor thinking to pull away from that fleet & the role they provide - basically the one negative in the DWP for me.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Good call. I had commented earlier maybe fiji or one of the other islands could be prospective buyers, although no mention surprisingly in the defence white paper of whether they intend to replace them one for one with Opv or not?
If they were deemed to technical for our reserves to operate/maintain then would they really be suitable for the Island nations with their limited budgets? If we were to give them to the PI nations then why not push them back out to the rockies and their intended regional AOs. As has been stated we already have them paid so why not use them instead of no doubt taking a loss and cutting them free all to "fund" another vessel we should have anyway.

In saying that, this Fijian op will be a good use of the IPV to suuport our neighbours, also ironically aliitle further than inshore even EEZ limit sooo....there goes that argument. I think focus and budget cut are merely one and the same with our government, much like excuses and justifications.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
If they were deemed to technical for our reserves to operate/maintain then would they really be suitable for the Island nations with their limited budgets? If we were to give them to the PI nations then why not push them back out to the rockies and their intended regional AOs. As has been stated we already have them paid so why not use them instead of no doubt taking a loss and cutting them free all to "fund" another vessel we should have anyway.

In saying that, this Fijian op will be a good use of the IPV to suuport our neighbours, also ironically aliitle further than inshore even EEZ limit sooo....there goes that argument. I think focus and budget cut are merely one and the same with our government, much like excuses and justifications.
Seems to be a pattern emerging in past Nzdf purchases, buying the lav 3 in excess numbers and not being able to crew or sustain them& yet another fire sale thanks to labour.

Doing it right the first time round would have saved us a fortune on both fleets. Yeah, that 'ship" has sailed, eh.

I hope we make up the numbers then in mpa coverage with either P8 and drones and maybe an extra opv at a later date.

I suppose the new littoral support vessel once built could assist in this role when available
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
I still don't understand why they are not transferred to fisheries or customs and let them deal with manning and maintenance. Government already paid for them why not use them.
Q-West are building customs a new vessel, it's a modification of the two Police Launches they built for Wellington and Auckland a few years ago.

 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yes correctly they've seen a need for additional assistance with the Antarctic programme but in terms of whether one OPV can possibly cover the availability of 4 IPV... it appears the OPV simply isn't intended to do that!

The DWP looks to be a case of refocusing away from any significant inshore Naval patrol presence, instead assuming Customs, MPI etc will take up that slack (even though I doubt they are/will be resourced to do so). The focus will move more to offshore presence - assisted by UAV & King Air support I hope.

If you haven't already guessed the loss of the IPV really irritates me - poor thinking to pull away from that fleet & the role they provide - basically the one negative in the DWP for me.
I understand your sentiments Gibbo but ....

The large majority of the commercial quota fishers (Around 1250 licensed at present) are sub 16m vessels targeting species in the close inshore habitat often with crews of up to 5/6 - some of their most productive fishing is within 3 miles of the coastline. The remainder split between 16m-24m and then the 24m+ offshore / deep sea vessels of which there are 315 according to MFish both from NZ Companies and Foreign flagged - these outer EZZ big boats though lesser in number dominate the annual catch by tonnage - the majority of these big boats/factory/illegals are often 40 - 70m (and getting bigger as they are being replaced) - they are beyond the reach of the IPV's and with just two OPV's it is happy days for them.

The IPV's - are in a nutshell too big and too few to appropriately deal with patrolling within 12nm NZTL ( and a lot of the fishing is often close inshore 3nm), but also they lack the endurance or persistence to deal with the outer EZZ -the parts of the EZZ where the fish are to be found in greater volumes. The IPV's were a poor compromise born from poor policy analysis taken post 2000 MPR, which was based on out of date data to address a commercial fishing industry that was itself rapidly adjusting to Post 1977 UNCLOS and the legal birth of the NZEZZ and post 1986 QMS which saw a massive rationalisation.

With Customs and MFish as the principal clients - there are tasking differences to meet target requirements - Customs for example do not want to be tied into the patrol requirements of MFish or the Navy. They are actually more intelligence lead and reactive by necessity than the other agencies. Their prime areas of monitoring are also different - (Customs) Northern Shipping Approaches to intercept vessels and shipping at and beyond the 24nm NZCZ and (MFish) Sub Antarctic / West Coast S.I monitoring foreign Factory Ships and the like. One role (MFish) is more overt - the other role (Customs) is more covert and directed in interception.

That is not to say that inshore fisheries inspection role should be ignored by the NZ Govt - what is needed in more numbers of inshore fisheries inspection vessels - but here is the point - since that activity happens within the NZTL then it is domestic law enforcement agency remit and dealt with as such - the navy is not there or should not be there to be a policemans water taxi. I have said before that for the price of a single IPV we could have bought ten locally built $3.5m Q-West 22.5m Cat inshore patrol craft (Similar to what KiwiRob has just posted above) to cover the inshore NZTL/NZCZ for MFish, Customs and Maritime Police and operated by them and tasked by them to do the hugely different roles in different places. The remit for their roles coming out of their budgets.

As we know the political class in charge at the time wanted the Navy to be water taxi service for these and other civilian agencies and not an actual 'fighting' navy - and got the $500m Project Protector to be all things to all people - everything but themselves. Imagine if they the NZDF still had their $500m for Project Protector and the other NZ Govt agencies were funded their own inshore build requirements separately?

The Navy/NZDF could have built a better MRV and three better OPV's designs - without any of the inherent compromises. That is another thing that irritates me about Project Protector - the loss of opportunity and the huge cost of time it is going to take to rectify the problems it created and the problems that it did not solve. A blunder of generational proportions.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Q-West are building customs a new vessel, it's a modification of the two Police Launches they built for Wellington and Auckland a few years ago.

Like the police vessels this is just replacing existing craft so while an improvement in capability not an increase in numbers which means technically they are still in the same boat so to speak ie nothing above and beyond in terms of any patrolling. This project has been ongoing for years now (Mfish also) even before the first police variant so really nothing new as police and customs still use naval ships.

In short just the usual replacement of obsolete equipment as per the NZDF, nothing extra.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Yep, good choice. Home port is to be New Plymouth.
I happen to think she's a damn fine looking vessel, going to be a major asset for the RNZN.

'New Plymouth District Council Mayor Neil Holdom said it was fantastic news for the region and the ship having a Taranaki base was good for the local economy'... um, really!?! Isn't that just a little over-hyping it!?! I take it he does realise she won't be 'based' there!
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I understand your sentiments Gibbo but ....

The large majority of the commercial quota fishers (Around 1250 licensed at present) are sub 16m vessels targeting species in the close inshore habitat often with crews of up to 5/6 - some of their most productive fishing is within 3 miles of the coastline. The remainder split between 16m-24m and then the 24m+ offshore / deep sea vessels of which there are 315 according to MFish both from NZ Companies and Foreign flagged - these outer EZZ big boats though lesser in number dominate the annual catch by tonnage - the majority of these big boats/factory/illegals are often 40 - 70m (and getting bigger as they are being replaced) - they are beyond the reach of the IPV's and with just two OPV's it is happy days for them.

The IPV's - are in a nutshell too big and too few to appropriately deal with patrolling within 12nm NZTL ( and a lot of the fishing is often close inshore 3nm), but also they lack the endurance or persistence to deal with the outer EZZ -the parts of the EZZ where the fish are to be found in greater volumes. The IPV's were a poor compromise born from poor policy analysis taken post 2000 MPR, which was based on out of date data to address a commercial fishing industry that was itself rapidly adjusting to Post 1977 UNCLOS and the legal birth of the NZEZZ and post 1986 QMS which saw a massive rationalisation.

With Customs and MFish as the principal clients - there are tasking differences to meet target requirements - Customs for example do not want to be tied into the patrol requirements of MFish or the Navy. They are actually more intelligence lead and reactive by necessity than the other agencies. Their prime areas of monitoring are also different - (Customs) Northern Shipping Approaches to intercept vessels and shipping at and beyond the 24nm NZCZ and (MFish) Sub Antarctic / West Coast S.I monitoring foreign Factory Ships and the like. One role (MFish) is more overt - the other role (Customs) is more covert and directed in interception.

That is not to say that inshore fisheries inspection role should be ignored by the NZ Govt - what is needed in more numbers of inshore fisheries inspection vessels - but here is the point - since that activity happens within the NZTL then it is domestic law enforcement agency remit and dealt with as such - the navy is not there or should not be there to be a policemans water taxi. I have said before that for the price of a single IPV we could have bought ten locally built $3.5m Q-West 22.5m Cat inshore patrol craft (Similar to what KiwiRob has just posted above) to cover the inshore NZTL/NZCZ for MFish, Customs and Maritime Police and operated by them and tasked by them to do the hugely different roles in different places. The remit for their roles coming out of their budgets.

As we know the political class in charge at the time wanted the Navy to be water taxi service for these and other civilian agencies and not an actual 'fighting' navy - and got the $500m Project Protector to be all things to all people - everything but themselves. Imagine if they the NZDF still had their $500m for Project Protector and the other NZ Govt agencies were funded their own inshore build requirements separately?

The Navy/NZDF could have built a better MRV and three better OPV's designs - without any of the inherent compromises. That is another thing that irritates me about Project Protector - the loss of opportunity and the huge cost of time it is going to take to rectify the problems it created and the problems that it did not solve. A blunder of generational proportions.
Haven't had a chance to read your reply until now... yes some salient points and I hadn't quite grasped the fact that inshore is more a domestic policing role...albeit one that many navies participate in.

I actually didn't have a problem with Project Protector in that whilst the vessels were a little cheap & arguably nasty (initially) - I quite liked the idea that they were being asked to get more involved with domestic / resource security whist not being told at the same time to reduce any other capability. Basically it widened the RNZN remit but now of course we do see that wasn't necessarily properly thought through.

Agree a 4th OPV would be warranted but I still see a niche for a couple of IPV's - working with the reserves; doing jobs with neighbours such as the Fiji deployment; providing training for sea-going staff without creating any burden on operational vessels & crews; SAR (something not often mentioned); and relatively cheap 'PR' tools that avoid doing soft stuff with bigger vessels better used operationally.

Also agree that customs, MPI etc need to be resourced to do more patroling closer in.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Haven't had a chance to read your reply until now... yes some salient points and I hadn't quite grasped the fact that inshore is more a domestic policing role...albeit one that many navies participate in.

I actually didn't have a problem with Project Protector in that whilst the vessels were a little cheap & arguably nasty (initially) - I quite liked the idea that they were being asked to get more involved with domestic / resource security whist not being told at the same time to reduce any other capability. Basically it widened the RNZN remit but now of course we do see that wasn't necessarily properly thought through.

Agree a 4th OPV would be warranted but I still see a niche for a couple of IPV's - working with the reserves; doing jobs with neighbours such as the Fiji deployment; providing training for sea-going staff without creating any burden on operational vessels & crews; SAR (something not often mentioned); and relatively cheap 'PR' tools that avoid doing soft stuff with bigger vessels better used operationally.

Also agree that customs, MPI etc need to be resourced to do more patrolling closer in.
You have outlined a compelling case in respect to retaining two IPV's.

It may be worth revisiting more emphasis on a sea going Naval Reserve to retain skills currency and training utilising an IPV (A RNZVNR that encompasses and embraces ex regs as well as new keen part-time rockies - the RNZVNR is essentially invisible at present) and yes it is also worth considering retaining one of the IPV's in the same basic sea training role that Kahu did up until a few years ago - and just a thought bubble both would be great billets throughout the year for a naval version of the Army's selected Limited Service Volunteer Cadets or Sea Cadets - those two IPV's would be busy.

So following that idea pathway - then selling off two IPV's and retaining the other two, would enable the thinking outlined above to happen - as well as fund (once transferred through Crown Accounts) a number of inshore local built constabulary vessels around 20-25m for Customs, MFish and Maritime Police. Two make up for the loss of two vessels in the water Ideally the Navy gets its SOPV eventually and another general purpose OPV - which hopefully would be the first in a fresh new build.

Four OPV's and two IPV's would have been better than the other way around with respect to Project Protector - compromised by miserly political patronage - Four quality OPV's designed to meet the demands I should add. (As a comparison Ireland for example with a much smaller EEZ though just as demanding with respect to sea conditions will have six OPV's and two IPV sized 'Coastal Patrol Vessels' as well as a EPV/MRV to replace its flagship Eithne once it has completed its fleet rejuvenation in a few years).
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
You have outlined a compelling case in respect to retaining two IPV's.

It may be worth revisiting more emphasis on a sea going Naval Reserve to retain skills currency and training utilising an IPV (A RNZVNR that encompasses and embraces ex regs as well as new keen part-time rockies - the RNZVNR is essentially invisible at present) and yes it is also worth considering retaining one of the IPV's in the same basic sea training role that Kahu did up until a few years ago - and just a thought bubble both would be great billets throughout the year for a naval version of the Army's selected Limited Service Volunteer Cadets or Sea Cadets - those two IPV's would be busy.

So following that idea pathway - then selling off two IPV's and retaining the other two, would enable the thinking outlined above to happen - as well as fund (once transferred through Crown Accounts) a number of inshore local built constabulary vessels around 20-25m for Customs, MFish and Maritime Police. Two make up for the loss of two vessels in the water Ideally the Navy gets its SOPV eventually and another general purpose OPV - which hopefully would be the first in a fresh new build.

Four OPV's and two IPV's would have been better than the other way around with respect to Project Protector - compromised by miserly political patronage - Four quality OPV's designed to meet the demands I should add. (As a comparison Ireland for example with a much smaller EEZ though just as demanding with respect to sea conditions will have six OPV's and two IPV sized 'Coastal Patrol Vessels' as well as a EPV/MRV to replace its flagship Eithne once it has completed its fleet rejuvenation in a few years).
Thank you MrC... not hopeful that RNZN will retain any IPV... then it'll probably all go full circle yet again and after 10 years or so with no IPV they'll look to purchase a couple of smaller vessels for all those tasks the IPV is actually quite good at doing. C'est la vie! :tomato

Not that I'm involved so don't see what goes on, but I wonder what on earth keeps the RNZVR going... does RNZN provide them with any RHIBs to play with? The VR should be tasked with maintaining 'local oversight' of their home ports and given a couple of RHIBs to use.

afterthought: I'm not saying RHIBs for VR instead of IPV - the IPV should definitely be there for the VR, but the RHIBs would be a valuable secondary, year-round tool for them.
 
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RegR

Well-Known Member
Haven't had a chance to read your reply until now... yes some salient points and I hadn't quite grasped the fact that inshore is more a domestic policing role...albeit one that many navies participate in.

I actually didn't have a problem with Project Protector in that whilst the vessels were a little cheap & arguably nasty (initially) - I quite liked the idea that they were being asked to get more involved with domestic / resource security whist not being told at the same time to reduce any other capability. Basically it widened the RNZN remit but now of course we do see that wasn't necessarily properly thought through.

Agree a 4th OPV would be warranted but I still see a niche for a couple of IPV's - working with the reserves; doing jobs with neighbours such as the Fiji deployment; providing training for sea-going staff without creating any burden on operational vessels & crews; SAR (something not often mentioned); and relatively cheap 'PR' tools that avoid doing soft stuff with bigger vessels better used operationally.

Also agree that customs, MPI etc need to be resourced to do more patroling closer in.
Inshore has always been domestic, it's kind of the whole point and in the terminology, inshore, ie close to NZ. We have always had some form of Inshore patrolling capability and the IPVs are in fact a vast improvement over the IPCs before them, the lake class before them and so on and their range and sea handling has only improved and increased. By moving the goalposts of the term inshore further offshore does not then make the vessel unsuitable for "inshore" patrolling it just expects more from technically the same. They are improved in their role, not an OPVs role. We don't send the ANZACs into antarctic waters and and then say they are unsuitable frigates when they inevitably struggle. The IPVs are now not too large for some close inshore work as they now also have multiple RHIBs, much like the OPVs just cheaper to operate.

I still cannot see what exactly has vastly changed in terms of inshore patrolling from decades gone by and in fact as MrC has pointed out there are vastly more craft in the "inshore" spectrum (1000+) and the further offshore you go the ships capable of operating in these margins drop off dramatically (double digits). Rather moot though as any vessel can fish close to NZs coastline, large or small, they just have to sail there to do it. The larger ships that account for most of the catches actually have other monitoring measures such as a seconded onboard fisheries officer and cameras able to be accessed from mainland NZ. It's all well and good to say it should be the job of fisheries and customs to do these jobs locally themselves but if they do not have the ships to do this then it's all rather pointless and it does not get much easier then essentially having a vessel provided for you, and yet last reports stated clearly they did not achieve their allocated patrol hours as they could not get the time on the naval vessels in the first place. Having 50% of the IPV fleet tied alongside and essentially mothballed probably does not help.

I still think it is merely a cost cutting measure fuelled by lack of funding, diminishing of resources and shortage and retention of key personnell driving this particular "re-focussing" and all smoke and mirrors trying to save face. Blaming the equipment for something it was not designed to do is merely a cop out and changing the guidelines to suit the scenario is alot easier then funding the problem to sort the issues. This just smells of another ACF type axing whilst trying to sugar coat it with the promise of another OPV instead whereas that should already be in lieu of the lost frigates (1 OPV is not the equivalent of 1 frigate in my books).

If a comparitively large organisation that is essentially the subject matter experts of all things nautical with motivated pers to match cannot adequately man a few inshore patrol vessels then how exactly is civilian outfit supposed to find the equivalent numbers to fill the void with a similar albeit less technical capability? Has'nt yet and these IPVs have been sitting idle for more than a few years now, surely enough time to have implemented a plan B at least.
 
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