Royal New Zealand Air Force

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Has anyone come across any listing of the respondents to the FASC RFI We know now that Boeing, KHI , Embraer and Saab have responded. What of Airbus and the A319 MPA and are there any others?
Having just checked the Airbus Military site, there is no listing for the A319MPA, which suggests to me that Airbus is no longer working on developing it. IIRC there had been one or two, but they were more like tech demonstrators that a developed product.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
A319 MPA Maritime Patrol Aircraft - Naval Technology

found this but i'm pretty sure Airbus has enough on it's plate at the moment.
I am aware of the Naval technology page. Which is why I specifically double checked by going to the actual manufacturer's website for Airbus Military, to see what they were listing for fixed-wing military aircraft products..

Given that they list the A330 MRTT, but not the A310 MRTT which is also in service, then it sounds like any other militarized variants of Airbus airliners are no longer being offered. Not too surprising given the upcoming demand for maritime aircraft, and the wide range of offerings available. Pretty much the only niche which does not have a glut of offerings would be for high end MPA. The problem here is that the P-8A Poseidon was basically already positioned to seize that market. From a business perspective, it would make little sense to dump so much R&D resources into that specific market, when there was so little likelihood of a ROI. The largest Western MPA operator (the US) already had the P-8A Poseidon development programme under way. The next largest operator (Japan) had/has their domestic P-1 programme. Given Japan has no history or exporting military aircraft, the P-1 would IMO not have been much of a competitor to the A319 MPA, but the P-8A Poseidon absolutely would. In order to match the sort of sales volume the P-8A Poseidon has from the US order alone, just about every nation that currently operates the P-3 Orion except for the US and Japan would need to order a 1:1 replacement, and then some of the countries which operate smaller MP and MPA aircraft like the ATR 72 MP, and ATR 72 ASW, would need to replace at least some of the smaller aircraft with the A319 MPA.

Given how unlikely that would happen, it seems to have been a sensible decision on the part of Airbus. After all, a number of the Orions currently in service have just been recently updated and therefore not due for replacement for a number of years (10+ if I had to guess), while other Orion operators frankly could not afford to purchase a replacement aircraft and have trouble maintaining what they have.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The C-130H Hercules Upgrade Project is now completed with all five aircraft now in the C-130H(NZ) configuration. There have been some problems along the way with the Ministry having to take over the role of Project Management when the original contractor went belly up. It is great that this project has come to fruition and that it was in the end a Kiwi project.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The C-130H Hercules Upgrade Project is now completed with all five aircraft now in the C-130H(NZ) configuration. There have been some problems along the way with the Ministry having to take over the role of Project Management when the original contractor went belly up. It is great that this project has come to fruition and that it was in the end a Kiwi project.
Graeme Gilmore did a very fine job saving this.

This link provides for some background about what evolved:

Ministry of Defence, L3 and Safe Air | Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Graeme Gilmore did a very fine job saving this.

This link provides for some background about what evolved:

Ministry of Defence, L3 and Safe Air | Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment
Could not agree more about Graeme Gilmore. Was my boss at D Eng in the late 70's and met him again 3 years ago at the project when he showed some of us around. Full of energy and obviously very highly respected by his staff even though he was probability past 80. (looked more like late 50's ) you see few men of this caliber in life's travels.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Could not agree more about Graeme Gilmore. Was my boss at D Eng in the late 70's and met him again 3 years ago at the project when he showed some of us around. Full of energy and obviously very highly respected by his staff even though he was probability past 80. (looked more like late 50's ) you see few men of this caliber in life's travels.
IIRC he was a Wing Co when I knew him. He's a real gentleman and very well mannered and polite. Always please and thank you regardless if you were the lowest airman in the RNZAF or HM the Queen herself. That goes a long way amongst those who are not commissioned and work for a living :)
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Without wishing in any way to diminish the work of those who carried out the project, spending close to NZ$250 million on upgrading five elderly aircraft may not be remembered as one of the high points in NZ defense decision-making.

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/c-130-hercules-upgrade-contract-signed

As this old media release makes clear, the project aimed to give a 15-year extension to service life, but was approved 13 years ago.
From memory the treasury documents gave the same 15 year life extension and Graeme Gilmore said even more when I was talking to him during our visit to the project 3 years ago. ( he was not a fan of the C130 J )
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Without wishing in any way to diminish the work of those who carried out the project, spending close to NZ$250 million on upgrading five elderly aircraft may not be remembered as one of the high points in NZ defense decision-making.

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/c-130-hercules-upgrade-contract-signed

As this old media release makes clear, the project aimed to give a 15-year extension to service life, but was approved 13 years ago.
You would get the same type of thinking from Mr Little as the thinking that gave the navy the protector project and the airforce the C130 re-life. every thing delayed, or scrapped or done on the apparent cheep. Usually meaning in the long term it will diminish capability and end up costing more .
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
So apparently Germany is having no luck finding a buyer for their 13 excess A400s, I have an idea where at least 5 of them could possibly go......surely govt has already enquired at least.

Germany proposes using excess A400M transports for multinational wing | IHS Jane's 360

The timings even seem favourable (examples from 2018) so if a deal could be reached could potentially work in our favour in terms of any replacement cycle envisaged. If we aqquired say 5 then that would still leave them with 8 examples for their proposed shared squadron so win win.

Could be an oppourtunity for more exchanges (we had german pilots at 3 Sqn for a spell huey/NH90) to assist with any transition/operation/lessons learnt being one of the original operators from day one ie SME of type (so far at least).
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So apparently Germany is having no luck finding a buyer for their 13 excess A400s, I have an idea where at least 5 of them could possibly go......surely govt has already enquired at least.

Germany proposes using excess A400M transports for multinational wing | IHS Jane's 360

The timings even seem favourable (examples from 2018) so if a deal could be reached could potentially work in our favour in terms of any replacement cycle envisaged. If we aqquired say 5 then that would still leave them with 8 examples for their proposed shared squadron so win win.

Could be an oppourtunity for more exchanges (we had german pilots at 3 Sqn for a spell huey/NH90) to assist with any transition/operation/lessons learnt being one of the original operators from day one ie SME of type (so far at least).
If the price was right and the operating costs stacked up it would certainly be a good option. This option would also create greater flexibility when choosing the strategic aircraft. I would be surprised if it had not been looked at.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Has there been any specific announcement from Airbus if they would support the aircraft if on-sold, like the US Spartans that Alenia would not support if someone bought them as they are technically competing in the same market for buyers.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
If the price was right and the operating costs stacked up it would certainly be a good option. This option would also create greater flexibility when choosing the strategic aircraft. I would be surprised if it had not been looked at.
Actually i had mentioned the german sale a while back :)though come to think of it, would some gear onboard be in german that would need like in the cockpit? Would specs be slightly altered as some operators do to suit there specific needs.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Actually i had mentioned the german sale a while back :)though come to think of it, would some gear onboard be in german that would need like in the cockpit? Would specs be slightly altered as some operators do to suit there specific needs.
english is the international language used for common operating and combat room layouts in use in NATO countries.

that includes layouts
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Has there been any specific announcement from Airbus if they would support the aircraft if on-sold, like the US Spartans that Alenia would not support if someone bought them as they are technically competing in the same market for buyers.
Unsure about the announcement, but since the German govt is a major shareholder I think that Airbus wouldn't have any issues with that. The Alenia issue with the USAF was different because of the USAF politics in killing a program.
Actually i had mentioned the german sale a while back :)though come to think of it, would some gear onboard be in german that would need like in the cockpit? Would specs be slightly altered as some operators do to suit there specific needs.
I think that the Luftwaffe systems would be top notch, more so than what our govt might intend, hence it would be a good opportunity in that aspect. Maybe Mr English needs to give Frau Merkel a call and ply her with some kiwi charm and delicacies :)
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Actually i had mentioned the german sale a while back :)though come to think of it, would some gear onboard be in german that would need like in the cockpit? Would specs be slightly altered as some operators do to suit there specific needs.
Yes the onsales and excess have been known for awhile but some here discounted them as saying they would not give up their early slots and we would possibly have to tag onto the end of their production runs, apparently not the case as 2018 is not actually that far away. I guess it's the difference between paying now or paying later dependant on financial situation.

I can't see airbus being difficult about any onsale and in fact could love to see their product in RNZAF colours as a relatively small yet professional operator regardless of a direct sale or third party deal. End of the day it's in their best interest to make these work and repair their reputation in this particular area.

Should'nt be too difficult to make at least slight configuration changes at this stage unless they are already on the line and rolling but as Ngati says any german models would most likely have all the bells and whistles from now on so could only benefit us in most cases anyway.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Yeah, with an election this year im a little worried about what a labour greens alliance might do if elected regards to any defence deal we sign off on now.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Yeah, with an election this year im a little worried about what a labour greens alliance might do if elected regards to any defence deal we sign off on now.
A bit of a dilemma if such an alliance were to win for any large order placed before an election assuming they are publicly on record against a particular acquisition. A solid penalty clause with a big payment fine might be a lock assuming this labour/green alliance isn't as stupid as Canada's Chrétien government in 1991 which happily paid $500 million to cancel the previous conservative government's AW101 helicopter order.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A bit of a dilemma if such an alliance were to win for any large order placed before an election assuming they are publicly on record against a particular acquisition. A solid penalty clause with a big payment fine might be a lock assuming this labour/green alliance isn't as stupid as Canada's Chrétien government in 1991 which happily paid $500 million to cancel the previous conservative government's AW101 helicopter order.
You never know, something I was told by a contact was that the cancellation of the F16 deal cost an extra $60m over what had already been spent. basically gave the USN 12 free aggressor aircraft. So Labour has the history in this regard.
 
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