John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Interesting saga about the AW101. With a value of $55 million, did AW get paid or did they just ship the helicopter over and are hoping for a payment?
Indonesian Aero News
- Thread starter Ananda
- Start date
Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #783
To add what tonnyc says..this is interview with Air Force chief with local media Gatra.
Gatranews - KSAU Hadi Tjahjanto: Heli Angkut Berat Adalah Keharusan, Bukan Lagi Kebutuhan
It's in Indonesian, you have to translate it. However in the interview based on contract signed in January 2016, the AW 101 that already in Halim AB is already paid.
This fiasco is just showing where the Minister of Defence try to side line and not taking responsibilities of AW101 procurement. On another media Kompas, one of local military analyst even stated that on September 2016, the minister of Defence even already signed contract for 8 AW101.
Menhan Disebut Sudah Teken Surat Pembelian 8 AgustaWestland 101 - Kompas.com
This controvertion of AW101 vs Cougar/Caracal should been solved long time ago if the Armed Forces and Mindef conduct more professionally the procurement process to begin with.
The AF already shown dissapointment with DI/IAe on conducting supply of Cougar/Caracal. The DI tracked record on providing Cougar or Air Force need is dissapointing, where untill end of 2016, only 2 of 6 Cougar that already in DI for final fitting, where it should be ready all 6 by end of last year.
The regulation clearly says that any military procurement which the item already have involvement of local industry should get prioritize..however if AW101 is more preferable to Cougar for capacity and capabilities wise, then the AF and Mindef should explain better to parliement to get some kind of political suport for 'deviation' on the policy.
This raised question whether Jokowi really in control on Armed Forces procurement. More to point..whose in control of Mindef actions..again showing too much interest on Indonesian Armed Forces procurement..
The local content policy still can be bended and deviated, if conducted more properly. The Army when bought MI-17V5 goes to parliement and told them why they need MI-17 and why Super Puma or Cougar frm DI-Airbus collaboration can not meet the capabilities of MI-17...
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Indonesia isn't the only country with a sad AW101 story. Our order for 50 AW101s in 1991 (then called EW101s) was cancelled a few months later by an incoming Liberal government. Here we are 25 years later still waiting for 22 of the 28 ordered Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclones. Oh, and the six we have received to date still don't meet specifications, something AW could do 25 years ago. If you want to ruin something, just call a pollie for their "expert opinion".
Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #785
The thing is..this fiasco happened due to AF unprofessionally handle procurement process. AW 101 come to attention also because AW boltched their deal with India and they need another customer 'pronto'..
The AF does not need another type of VVIP helicopter..the current Super Puma one still suitable..and DI already pitching for potential replacement. This when everything goes trouble. The AF should know that VVIP helicopters is DI part of 'cake'..part where local industry already involved in.
However since AW need to reload those VVIP ex India deal..they package it with Utilities/SAR derivative (the one that the AF really need which AW 101 can proved its superiority against DI-Airbus Cougar)..
If The AF did not insist to include VVIP version..this Fiasco probably will not happen..since like the Army case with MI-35V5 the AF should not found too much difficulty on profing their need for AW 101..but not in VVIP ones..
The President already says no to VVIP version..but then AF still try talkin in media for VVIP..this that went wrong..they should left that area to DI..thus not provoking controvertion against regulation articles on local industry involvement..
But seems AW did good job in creating political controvertion on few countries during their pitching..
The AF does not need another type of VVIP helicopter..the current Super Puma one still suitable..and DI already pitching for potential replacement. This when everything goes trouble. The AF should know that VVIP helicopters is DI part of 'cake'..part where local industry already involved in.
However since AW need to reload those VVIP ex India deal..they package it with Utilities/SAR derivative (the one that the AF really need which AW 101 can proved its superiority against DI-Airbus Cougar)..
If The AF did not insist to include VVIP version..this Fiasco probably will not happen..since like the Army case with MI-35V5 the AF should not found too much difficulty on profing their need for AW 101..but not in VVIP ones..
The President already says no to VVIP version..but then AF still try talkin in media for VVIP..this that went wrong..they should left that area to DI..thus not provoking controvertion against regulation articles on local industry involvement..
But seems AW did good job in creating political controvertion on few countries during their pitching..
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
I forgot to mention the 8-9 AW101s from the failed US Presidential helicopter program that Canada picked up for $164 million. These are be to used as spare parts for our SAR CH-149s (SAR version of the EW101). The Liberal government was forced to go back to AW as neither the NH90 or H-92 (CH-148) were ready back in 1997 and 15 EW101s (Cormorant CH-149) were bought. The cancelled Presidential VH-71s were acquired by Canada in 2011. It was possible to get 4 of the VH-71s back into flight status as CH-149s but this will not likely happen. For Canada, the CH-149 has been a worthwhile acquisition and but for political face saving, a paper design only Sikorsky was selected over the AW101 in 2006 for the replacement of the navy's SeaKings. As previously mentioned, only 6 of the 28 ordered have been received. The SeaKings, being almost 50 years old, cost a fortune to keep in flying condition.
Last edited:
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
From which I understand, the EC725 has much more Indonesian (IPTN) content than the EH101... If I'm not wrong, IPTN makes some fuselage sections and the tail boom of it. https://www.airbushelicopters.com/w...ce-for-EC725-and-EC225-helicopters”_1319.html
But with everything else about the procurement of the EH-101 you are right, our government and AF has completely messed it up...
I still remember that the Air Force had ordered 16 NAS-332 Super Pumas in the '90s, as an addition to their existing 13 Super Pumas, but only a small amount were delivered. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) Later in the 2000-2010 period they ordered 5 CSAR variants of the Super Puma/Cougar... But are these five delivered? And how CSAR are these five? Only a machine gun in the door? I've never seen a completely CSAR Indonesian helicopter with refueling boom, chaff - flare dispensers, FLIR-sensors and rocket pods...
Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #788
Attached is the image frm one of 6 TNI-AU Cougar CSAR (frm Angkasa On Line).. DI claim it's already fuly delivered all 6..but somehow frm another media, The AF claim only 2 of 6 that already operationally capable. Truth is, I'm bit confused on the operational condition onthose 6 Cougar CSAR..somehow what DI and TNI AU claimed were not matched..
They are not fitting those Cougar with refeuling boom, but I belive they are fitting it with FLIR.
They are not fitting those Cougar with refeuling boom, but I belive they are fitting it with FLIR.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing Ananda.
So from which i understand from Eurocopter to supply 6 EC725 CSAR helicopters to PT Dirgantara Indones and Indonesia receives first CSAR dedicated EC725 helicopter
is that IPTN build the tailboom and some airframe assemblies, delivers it to Eurocopter, which assembles it together with other components into a complete EC225/EC725 in its own factory and then delivers the EC725s to IPTN which completes the mission equipment outfitting and customization so it becomes a CSAR version....
This 'saga' - if you want to call it that - has become a tragic comedy. If the AF and PT DI have differences of opinion in the state of the goods delivered (the aircraft), should it not be quite easy to see who still has or has not met the obligations? 99.9 sure that there is a contract stating the deliverables from PT DI to the Air Force, isn't it? Or is that even exist?
From the contract, would we not be able to discern who's at fault? It should be as plain as black and white? Why not just disclose that in public? Is somebody trying to protect something? The disclosure will not only help both sides do better on the next contract. If the AF were at fault, due to say - loosely written contracts - then they know that they need to close that gap. If the DI were at fault - then it sets a precedent that the current TOT regulations requiring that PT DI to have some contribution - is at best not readily applicable to PT DI, thus enabling the AF to get what they need without the burden of having a party that is not ready to support them to be in the mix.
Maybe I am just sitting in the ivory tower, and think about this in a utopian way that's very far from the reality of Indonesian armed forces procurement process, but this is basic procurement stuff.
I fear that the ASW helo would end in a similar debacle. I hope not, but I am not holding my breath.
I know that the current admin is trying their best to clean up. Maybe it's a question which area to clean up first .. but I digress .... Talking about that will require a separate forum on its own, not just a military-related thread.
From the contract, would we not be able to discern who's at fault? It should be as plain as black and white? Why not just disclose that in public? Is somebody trying to protect something? The disclosure will not only help both sides do better on the next contract. If the AF were at fault, due to say - loosely written contracts - then they know that they need to close that gap. If the DI were at fault - then it sets a precedent that the current TOT regulations requiring that PT DI to have some contribution - is at best not readily applicable to PT DI, thus enabling the AF to get what they need without the burden of having a party that is not ready to support them to be in the mix.
Maybe I am just sitting in the ivory tower, and think about this in a utopian way that's very far from the reality of Indonesian armed forces procurement process, but this is basic procurement stuff.
I fear that the ASW helo would end in a similar debacle. I hope not, but I am not holding my breath.
I know that the current admin is trying their best to clean up. Maybe it's a question which area to clean up first .. but I digress .... Talking about that will require a separate forum on its own, not just a military-related thread.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #792
Well at this moment what happen is another part of 'blamming game'.. This is turn to where some factions in Armed Forces procurement not happy with Airbus Military using DI as partner to gather monopoly (well frm their perspective) on Armed Forces procurement especially Transport and Helicopter. This turn out frm my own perspective another 'business game'
The 'sad' thing is..why this turn into aircraft that already in preparation to be delivered to the AF.
Yes, they should open this to media and public..what's really in the contract or what happen with term on delivery..However seems DI export contract to overseas customers doing smoothly..thus why the 'bru ha ha' happen mostly to AF contract ? Especially with Helicopters contract..
I my self can not say more untill both parties shown more clearly what really happen..
Talking about Transport, Airbus Military gather their campaign for A400M for Jakarta's Mindef Heavy Transport need. This is turn out to be quite controversy considered the price tag (USD 2 bio off course including support, spare parts and training)..also Airbus seems indicating by procured A400M they will include DI as part of A400M support infratructure chain in Asia Pacific.
Airbus Dispatches A400M to Indonesia to Showcase Platform's Capabilities (excerpt)
The picture comes frm Instagram of Yohannes Chrismayoga
The 'sad' thing is..why this turn into aircraft that already in preparation to be delivered to the AF.
Yes, they should open this to media and public..what's really in the contract or what happen with term on delivery..However seems DI export contract to overseas customers doing smoothly..thus why the 'bru ha ha' happen mostly to AF contract ? Especially with Helicopters contract..
I my self can not say more untill both parties shown more clearly what really happen..
Talking about Transport, Airbus Military gather their campaign for A400M for Jakarta's Mindef Heavy Transport need. This is turn out to be quite controversy considered the price tag (USD 2 bio off course including support, spare parts and training)..also Airbus seems indicating by procured A400M they will include DI as part of A400M support infratructure chain in Asia Pacific.
Airbus Dispatches A400M to Indonesia to Showcase Platform's Capabilities (excerpt)
The picture comes frm Instagram of Yohannes Chrismayoga
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
According to this report/article, TNI-AU plans for an upgrade of our T-50s into the FA-50.... But I've the feeling that this is a pure fantasy story about someone's wish to see this become reality in the near future.....maybe...or something...
KSAU Akan Kembalikan Marwah T-50 Sebagai Pesawat Tempur
:
KSAU Akan Kembalikan Marwah T-50 Sebagai Pesawat Tempur
:
Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #794
A-400M will not be under TNI-AU..
UPDATE 1-Indonesia in tentative deal for Airbus A400M military planes
According to this the letter of intent for A-400M is signed by Pelita Air..this means if the deals goes trough..then it will be under 'civilian' operative.
Pelita Air is subsidiary of Indonesian State Owned Oil company Pertamina. This airline since the time of Soeharto government used to operate 'psudo' heavy transport operation. It used to operated C-130H (allready transfered to AF/TNI-AU), and Transall.
If this conclude..then it's also confirming the AF chief statement in media that the AF has nothing to do with potential A-400M deals since it's being discussed by Ministry of State Owned Enterprises (SOE). From that ministry point of view..deal like this 'seeming' aimed's for:
1. Support government initiatives on Heavy Transport to outer islands,
2. Support DI stance within Airbus Manufacturing chain.
I believe within the Pelita Air, those A-400M will fill the slots that currently handle by the Airline's Transall...
Whille the AF not hidding their aimed is for C-130J to support existing C-130H.
UPDATE 1-Indonesia in tentative deal for Airbus A400M military planes
According to this the letter of intent for A-400M is signed by Pelita Air..this means if the deals goes trough..then it will be under 'civilian' operative.
Pelita Air is subsidiary of Indonesian State Owned Oil company Pertamina. This airline since the time of Soeharto government used to operate 'psudo' heavy transport operation. It used to operated C-130H (allready transfered to AF/TNI-AU), and Transall.
If this conclude..then it's also confirming the AF chief statement in media that the AF has nothing to do with potential A-400M deals since it's being discussed by Ministry of State Owned Enterprises (SOE). From that ministry point of view..deal like this 'seeming' aimed's for:
1. Support government initiatives on Heavy Transport to outer islands,
2. Support DI stance within Airbus Manufacturing chain.
I believe within the Pelita Air, those A-400M will fill the slots that currently handle by the Airline's Transall...
Whille the AF not hidding their aimed is for C-130J to support existing C-130H.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing the reports. If pelita Air order these A400s, than Pelita Air will be the first civilian entity to operate the A400, right? I know Pelita Air is owned by Pertamina, but I'm still surprised by this news, because the A400 is so incredible expensive...
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Interesting, a civilian entity ordering a A400M. Locked-Martin introduced their civilian version of the C-130J recently, the LM-100J which I assume is less expensive. I wonder if Airbus has planned for a less expensive civilian version of their transport? As you say, the A400M is expensive.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #797
@Sandhi and John..
Pelita Air is not new on operating Military Cargo for civilian uses..as mentioned before they used to operate C-130 (including civilian version LM-100) and Transall..(see the picture bellow)..
They have business clientale on oil and gas and mining that need to haul large pallet cargo to remote airstrip where those military cargo plane provide 'niche' capabilities where civilian base cargo airliner can not do..
As why A-400M..I sense this is also a trade up deal with Airbus for them supporting DI business and possitioning in Airbus global manufacturing and service chain..
In my opinion, this issue perhaps brought bigger influence if the deal goes through..
DI have at least 2 design N-219 and N-245 (civilian version of CN235/C295)..that need Airbus help in area like marketing and licensing to get in to export/international market..
Moreover getting DI deep involvement within Airbus global chain will help the company survival commercially. Indonesian administration can't continue pumping money to DI..thus I sense this deal can also part of deal to sustain DI with Airbus in the future..
Pelita Air is not new on operating Military Cargo for civilian uses..as mentioned before they used to operate C-130 (including civilian version LM-100) and Transall..(see the picture bellow)..
They have business clientale on oil and gas and mining that need to haul large pallet cargo to remote airstrip where those military cargo plane provide 'niche' capabilities where civilian base cargo airliner can not do..
As why A-400M..I sense this is also a trade up deal with Airbus for them supporting DI business and possitioning in Airbus global manufacturing and service chain..
In my opinion, this issue perhaps brought bigger influence if the deal goes through..
DI have at least 2 design N-219 and N-245 (civilian version of CN235/C295)..that need Airbus help in area like marketing and licensing to get in to export/international market..
Moreover getting DI deep involvement within Airbus global chain will help the company survival commercially. Indonesian administration can't continue pumping money to DI..thus I sense this deal can also part of deal to sustain DI with Airbus in the future..
Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #798
Sniper ATP for TNI-AU F-16
Result of Mike Pence visit to Jakarta.
https://id.usembassy.gov/commercial-deliverables-commercial-signing-ceremony/
https://m.facebook.com/lockheedmartin/
The US Embassy information told it's for F-16 A/B..but I do believe it's more fit to recently delivered F-16 52ID (F-16 C/D Blk 25 that upgraded to Blk 52 Avionics/Electronics). Altough it's reported that existing F-16 A/B will also upgraded to same standard.
Result of Mike Pence visit to Jakarta.
https://id.usembassy.gov/commercial-deliverables-commercial-signing-ceremony/
https://m.facebook.com/lockheedmartin/
The US Embassy information told it's for F-16 A/B..but I do believe it's more fit to recently delivered F-16 52ID (F-16 C/D Blk 25 that upgraded to Blk 52 Avionics/Electronics). Altough it's reported that existing F-16 A/B will also upgraded to same standard.
Haavarla
Active Member
It's an awful lot of sniper ATP pods if it's a $10b contract... That announcement only covers Sniper targetting pods for their F-16 fleet...