War Against ISIS

[surpreme]

Wow the regime lost Palmyra, some oil fields and a lot of territory, the front is at T4 airbase from what I understand. Lots of equipment fell in ISIS hands. What a swift rout.

I think there was a big reconnaissance blunder if all these thousands of islamists were not detected and bombed early. This is what worked till now.

They didn't all come together they know better than that. ISIS has adopted to the war and know how to operate in the desert they came in small packs. This was well planned attack by ISIS as said before they have skilled soldiers with them. If you look at photos and video it hard to know who is SAA and ISIS. ISIS has special ops soldiers who also work behind lines. I truly believe the SAA, Russia, and Iran had disagreement on what offensive to focus on. The SAA is one of the most unbelievable Army I seen in a long time it amaze me how they survive with limited number of units. The SAA do not have whole brigade or divisions no more. The SAA units are not the same before the civil war. SAA uses a lot specialize troops or shock troops this is what has help them. Things gotten so bad you have a General fighting on the frontline like Maj Gen Issam Zahreddine to push the morale of his soldiers up and I give him much respect

 

[STURM]

The SAA is one of the most unbelievable Army I seen in a long time it amaze me how they survive with limited number of units.

''Unbelievable'' is perhaps stretching things a bit too far. No doubt the Syrian army has held together; not to long ago many had written it off. What has held it together is the realisation that IS poses a greater threat and that whatever differences there are has to be put aside in order to defeat IS first. What many fail to realise or forget is that the Syrian army also includes in its ranks quite a number of Sunnis and various minorities : for them Assad is a lesser evil. As is well known, Syrian units also have benefited immensely from help provided by Russia, Iran and Hezbollah.

 

[GermanHerman]

They didn't all come together they know better than that. ISIS has adopted to the war and know how to operate in the desert they came in small packs. This was well planned attack by ISIS as said before they have skilled soldiers with them. If you look at photos and video it hard to know who is SAA and ISIS. ISIS has special ops soldiers who also work behind lines. I truly believe the SAA, Russia, and Iran had disagreement on what offensive to focus on. The SAA is one of the most unbelievable Army I seen in a long time it amaze me how they survive with limited number of units. The SAA do not have whole brigade or divisions no more. The SAA units are not the same before the civil war. SAA uses a lot specialize troops or shock troops this is what has help them. Things gotten so bad you have a General fighting on the frontline like Maj Gen Issam Zahreddine to push the morale of his soldiers up and I give him much respect

I don't know if that realy is an indicator for the bad shape of the Army (even though after years of civil war it sure is in a bad place).

It's rather a tactic which was developed from some german commanders prior to world war 2 and became implemented in the whole army after it showed impressive results in the polish campaign. Later it was given up due to the high losses of experienced officers. Nonetheless some Generals stuck to it during the entire war.

It has some strength to it such as a direct line of communitcation between the commander and its troops which gives him the ability to react quicker to the situation on the battleground and gives him the ability to face and supress possible resistance besides just strengthening the moral of its troops.

Generals like Rommel and Guderian had great success with this stlye of leading.

So there are a few other reasons than sheer desperation for a General to use this style of command.

[EDIT]

It seems as if the battle fo Aleppo is going to end soon:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/aleppo-161212042846037.html

The Syrian military operation to recapture rebel-held east Aleppo is in its final stages after the army took Sheikh Saeed and other districts, according to Lieutenant-General Zaid al-Saleh, head of the Aleppo security committee.

Some sources claim that the city has already been recaptured by the Regime.

I wonder how many troops will be free to be used on other frontlines after this battle?

 

[surpreme]

''Unbelievable'' is perhaps stretching things a bit too far. No doubt the Syrian army has held together; not to long ago many had written it off. What has held it together is the realisation that IS poses a greater threat and that whatever differences there are has to be put aside in order to defeat IS first. What many fail to realise or forget is that the Syrian army also includes in its ranks quite a number of Sunnis and various minorities : for them Assad is a lesser evil. As is well known, Syrian units also have benefited immensely from help provided by Russia, Iran and Hezbollah.

Yes true the Iranians and Russians has help Syrians Army. Have you look at video and photo? They are smaller and discipline is not as strong as the beginning of civil war. Units have defected to Free Syrian Army.
Alot Syrian not wearing equipment and doing some odd stuff driving cars, van, and pickup trucks. SAA is just doing what it want I seen unit looking bad. That's why I said it unbelievable how they still operating. I seen units with hats on backward tennis shoes and they look raggedy. And you want to get on subject of discipline it looking bad. The Iranians and Hezbollah had problems with SAA. THE ONLY UNIT THAT REMAIN DISCIPLINED IS TIGER FORCES OR I WOULD SAID ELITE FORCES. This come from studying the SAA for 4 years. Hezbollah seems to have gotten better as result of the war.

 

[Toblerone]

The SAA is a hodgepodge of militias from several countries. Some of them are disciplined and highly trained troops and others some hoodlums trying to profit from stealing and the black market, or demoralized random people who got drafted by force and have one goal: to survive the war and not get deployed near the front lines. They never intend to actually charge into enemy-held territory or defend a location, they don't intend to die for the Assad regime. They are only good for manning checkpoints and radioing their superiors if trouble arises, carrying stuff around and scraping the toilets. And I am being literal.

My non-wartime army experience is that unwilling soldiers can be a liability worse than heavy manpower shortage. At least you can plan for the latter.

 

[surpreme]

I don't know if that realy is an indicator for the bad shape of the Army (even though after years of civil war it sure is in a bad place).

It's rather a tactic which was developed from some german commanders prior to world war 2 and became implemented in the whole army after it showed impressive results in the polish campaign. Later it was given up due to the high losses of experienced officers. Nonetheless some Generals stuck to it during the entire war.

It has some strength to it such as a direct line of communitcation between the commander and its troops which gives him the ability to react quicker to the situation on the battleground and gives him the ability to face and supress possible resistance besides just strengthening the moral of its troops.

Generals like Rommel and Guderian had great success with this stlye of leading.

So there are a few other reasons than sheer desperation for a General to use this style of command.

[EDIT]

It seems as if the battle fo Aleppo is going to end soon:

Aleppo operation in final stages, Syrian general says | Syria News | Al Jazeera



Some sources claim that the city has already been recaptured by the Regime.

I wonder how many troops will be free to be used on other frontlines after this battle?

Good point on the General's The main reason I said after study videos and photos of Maj Gen Issam Zehreddine just checked out how his soldiers response to him there morale was low if you notice there wasn't any salutes. Now in a professional army you respect Generals. Now this where things get tricky SAA must choose what do next. Will they go hit Idlib where they really put a dent in the resistance which would be the rebels downfall, go to northern Syrian and take care of the Turks, or they can choose to recaptured Palmyra and relief Deir ez Zor, or make a charge at Raqqah. SAA has some tough decision to make. I will said about 10,000 troops will be free from Aleppo.

 

[Feanor]

Good point on the General's The main reason I said after study videos and photos of Maj Gen Issam Zehreddine just checked out how his soldiers response to him there morale was low if you notice there wasn't any salutes. Now in a professional army you respect Generals. Now this where things get tricky SAA must choose what do next. Will they go hit Idlib where they really put a dent in the resistance which would be the rebels downfall, go to northern Syrian and take care of the Turks, or they can choose to recaptured Palmyra and relief Deir ez Zor, or make a charge at Raqqah. SAA has some tough decision to make. I will said about 10,000 troops will be free from Aleppo.

"Take care of the Turks"? What universe do you live in?

Seriously, there is a deal with Erdogan and he's been given the green light to do this. Not to mention that Syria is in no shape to take on Turkey. And never will be, at least within the forseeable future.

 

[Feanor]

Palmyra fell to ISIS. It looks like Assad's forces withdrew after the road leading to Palmyra became threatened. ISIS is currently pushing on T4 airbase. And given recent news, it looks like T4 might fall next, as ISIS has taken key heights north-west of T4. It's important to note ISIS use of SP Arty in this offensive. It shows a high level of organization and sophistication. The SAA hasn't always made good use of it's own artillery assets, by comparison.

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ISIS tropheys in Palmyra. Noteworthy is the Russian Vystrel APC. A relatively recent delivery to Syria.

"Дозор" ("Ð’Ñ‹Ñтрел") в руках "Халифата" - bmpd

Meanwhile Aleppo has fallen completely. Aleppo is a much bigger victory for Assad then the taking of Palmyra was but the consequences of the fall of Palmyra might prove to be as significant. This victory comes after the US and Russia failed to negotiate a withdrawal of the rebel fighters. It's important to note that tropheys are a big part of this war, and Assad got quite a few out of Aleppo.

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Turkey lost their first Leopard 2 in Syria, likely to a TOW missile.

Ð’ Сирии подÑтрелен первый турецкий танк Leopard 2 - bmpd

Russia's Tu-214R ELINT bird returns from a Syrian tour.

Ту-214Р вернулÑÑ Ð¸Ð· Сирии - bmpd

Meanwhile a retired Russian general blasted the Syrian for failing to detect the offensive on Palmyra.

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Some photos of Russian carrier ops.

С борта ТÐКРа - Берлога Бронемедведа

Russian SoF in Syria.

РоÑÑийÑкие Силы Ñпециальных операций в Сирии - bmpd

 

[Nick underscore]

Palmyra fell to ISIS. It looks like Assad's forces withdrew after the road leading to Palmyra became threatened. ISIS is currently pushing on T4 airbase. And given recent news, it looks like T4 might fall next, as ISIS has taken key heights north-west of T4.

Sadly, the more things change he more they stay the same..

Part of me believed the SAA forces could hold this key 'retaken' point (with help)

Russia now must believe - this will cost more.

 

[Toblerone]

The regime is on the verse of military successes in other areas. Now that Aleppo is taken, redeployments can result in a string of successes around Damascus especially.

So maybe in a few months this Palmyra setback will be mostly forgotten. I don't even know if it is worth it to try to retake the city at this point.

 

[surpreme]

Syrian next offensive

Seem like SAA are senting reinforcement to Palmyra. The Tigers Forces are heading to Palmyra. Is this the choice the Syria High Command choose as it next offensive.
https://www.almasdarnews.com/articl...ntryside-syrian-army-attempts-push-back-isis/

To Feanor the Tiger forces will give Turkey hell if they were deployed to Northern Syrian. If you seen videos of the Tiger forces you will see they will hit Turkey hard now that's fact. I'm not in another universe on that I will back that up 100%

 

[Feanor]

Seem like SAA are senting reinforcement to Palmyra. The Tigers Forces are heading to Palmyra. Is this the choice the Syria High Command choose as it next offensive.
https://www.almasdarnews.com/articl...ntryside-syrian-army-attempts-push-back-isis/

To Feanor the Tiger forces will give Turkey hell if they were deployed to Northern Syrian. If you seen videos of the Tiger forces you will see they will hit Turkey hard now that's fact. I'm not in another universe on that I will back that up 100%

Given the Turks' access to air power, large quantities of modern and relatively capable arty (the SAA artillery is just sad) and massive number superiority, you are mistaken. The SAA couldn't even defeat the rebels without help. The only reason Syria is regaining any ground right now is because of massive support from Assad's foreign allies. He played a fairly intelligent foreign policy game, stayed loyal to his backers, and now is reaping the rewards. But militarily, the SAA, Tiger force included, would likely be little more then a speed bump for a full size Turkish invasion.

 

[STURM]

the Tiger forces will give Turkey hell if they were deployed to Northern Syrian.

Given the immense difficulties regular Syrian army had when confronted with various rebel groups; I fail to see how they would do better against the Turks. If the Turks made a deep incursion into Syria; they would come with heavy armoured units with full air and arty support. The Syrians will be outgunned and outmaneuvered; an unequal fight. The Syrians no doubt are doing better now and certain units are well led, well motivated and tactically proficient but at the end of the day - as Feanor pointed out - it was Russian and Iranian help that made the difference. Not many people remember but in the 1990's the Turks threatened to enter Syria if Assad failed to clamp down on the Kurds. Assad backed down; mainly because he knew his military would not have been able to stop the Turks.

 

[swerve]

... Will they go hit Idlib where they really put a dent in the resistance which would be the rebels downfall, go to northern Syrian and take care of the Turks, or they can choose to recaptured Palmyra and relief Deir ez Zor, or make a charge at Raqqah. SAA has some tough decision to make.

The decision is between which rebel faction to fight. Attacking the Turks will not be considered.

Any such attack would have to be by the SAA alone, without Russia or Iranian support. Neither of them wants a war with Turkey. It'd be costly, & there's nothing to gain from it. On its own, the SAA would stand no chance at all against the Turks. As others have said, the Turks have considerable superiority in everything: numbers of men, armour, artillery, airpower, & qualitative superiority in most things. They also have the money to replace material losses - unlike the SAA, which depends on aid.

 

[surpreme]

Given the Turks' access to air power, large quantities of modern and relatively capable arty (the SAA artillery is just sad) and massive number superiority, you are mistaken. The SAA couldn't even defeat the rebels without help. The only reason Syria is regaining any ground right now is because of massive support from Assad's foreign allies. He played a fairly intelligent foreign policy game, stayed loyal to his backers, and now is reaping the rewards. But militarily, the SAA, Tiger force included, would likely be little more then a speed bump for a full size Turkish invasion.[/QUOTES]I'm not talking about full scale invasion yes Turkey will kill the SAA. The TIGER Forces will have been successful in fighting the units in Northern Syrian not invasion by Turkey forces. The Turkey units in Northern Syrian are not full Turkey units you have rebels with them also. If Turkey decided to do invasion of Syria now would have been the time to do it the Syrian Army is weak now. Also it would not be smart to do it while Russia is there. Yes Freanor a full scale invasion Turkey will slaughter SAA unit but I will give the Syrian Special Forces will put up a fight that all I'm saying.

 

[Toblerone]

First of all, Assad will do what Russia and Iran tell him. So he will not engage the turks unless he is threatened, like when Erdogan ran his mouth about invading to remove Assad from power.

Secondly, the Tiger forces may have been successful against terrorists with friendly airforces acting as a force multiplier. This does not mean they can withstand attrition from turkish artillery and the airforce for long.

Thirdly, any serious setback for the turks will just result in heavier intervention. More turkish troops pouring in Syria, more money spent to coax in more FSA "rebels". There is no victory to be had there.

Fourthly, the turks can ramp up support to the Idlib terror-rebels and ... well ... there are so many thousands there.

The syrian regime has other considerations, like the T4 airbase west of Palmyra being partly surrounded and attacked, the oil fields they lost etc.

 

[STURM]

It's rather a tactic which was developed from some german commanders prior to world war 2 and became implemented in the whole army after it showed impressive results in the polish campaign. Later it was given up due to the high losses of experienced officers. Nonetheless some Generals stuck to it during the entire war.

The whole concept of allowing unit commanders to display flexibility and initiative - rather than having them rigidly controlled - indeed has its origins in WW1 but actually was deeply entrenched in German doctrine and psyche, auftragstaktik, before WW2. A good read and a controversial one is ''Not Mentioned in Despatches'' [Fitz-Gibbon]. It's a book on 2 Para at Goose Green and how an outmoded and inflexible British command culture [''restrictive control''] nearly led to a cockup at Goose Green. After the death of H Jones [2 Para's CO], Chris Keeble took command and he was well versed with auftragstaktik having spent time with the German army on attachment.

Rommel and Guderian are the well know examples but leading from the front wasn't uncommon; it was to be expected and widely performed.

The main reason I said after study videos and photos of Maj Gen Issam Zehreddine just checked out how his soldiers response to him there morale was low if you notice there wasn't any salutes. Now in a professional army you respect Generals.

Firstly, the lack of any salutes does not necessarily indicate low morale or a lack of respect for generals. Secondly, in addition to the circumstances they find themselves in [circumstances in which maintaining formality would be silly and superfluous] there is a possibility that they were expressly told to do away with formality. Going by your line of reasoning would footage of SAS or Scots Guards men in the field not saluting their officers indicate low morale or a lack of respect?

That's why I said it unbelievable how they still operating. I seen units with hats on backward tennis shoes and they look raggedy.

No it's not ''unbelievable''. It's not as if it's an unexplained phenomenon never seen before in other conflicts. Like many others, [to their credit] the Syrians have come back from the brink of defeat; by the own efforts and also with external help. It's to be expected; not ''unbelievable'.

THE ONLY UNIT THAT REMAIN DISCIPLINED IS TIGER FORCES OR I WOULD SAID ELITE FORCES.

This may be your opinion but it's untrue. Quite a number of Syrian units have displayed good cohesion and tactical proficiency : to be expected given that war has lasted for so long that that Syrian units have good reason to want to win. If the Tiger unit was the ''only'' Syrian DISCIPLINED'' unit or one capable of effective combat; Assad's enemies would have taken Damascus by now.

but I will give the Syrian Special Forces will put up a fight that all I'm saying.

Of course they'll put up a fight ...... Even if the heaviest weapon they had were 81mm mortars they would still put up a fight. What remains without any doubt is the inability of the Syrian military to actually stop the Turks if an incursion was mounted.

 

[ngatimozart]

Just a comment on saluting officers in the field. Officers, especially senior officers, are high value targets and hence the saluting of officers on the front line would give away their importance to enemy snipers making them a target.

During the North African desert campaign in WW2, a senior British General was visiting General "Tiny" Freyberg VC Commanding General of the 2nd NZ Armoured Division, which was part of the British 8th Army. They were observing a Kiwi patrol coming back in and the British General said to Tiny "don't your troops salute you?" Tiny Freyberg's reply was typical of him "If you wave at them they'll wave back".

 

[Toblerone]

Did the turks stop using M60s in favor of Leo2 against ISIS? They are still losing tanks to atgms but I think crew survivability is better than the M60 coffins.

https://southfront.org/isis-hits-2-more-turkish-leopard-2-tanks-in-northern-syria-photos/

Interesting retelling of the battle from a soldier, unverifiable I guess:

https://southfront.org/chronicle-of-fight-in-palmyra-from-serviceman-of-syrian-army/

 

[Feanor]

Update.

Heavy fighting around T4 continues. The base garrison has recaptured a few previously lost positions, but the road to the base from Homs is threatened. There is no solid line of front there, leaving the road open to ISIS raids, but ISIS has not, so far, established positions there. Claims appeared earlier that T4 has fallen. It appears that ISIS fighters made their way into the base, from an undefended approach, but were expelled.

The third and fourth links have photos of SAA gear abandoned in Palmyra.

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Despite the proclaimed taking of Aleppo, some rebels still remained there, and it looks like there was a deal for them to leave but they broke the terms. Fighting has resumed though on a tiny scale compared to what took place earlier.

Meanwhile the "moderate" opposition in Idlib is waving black flags, in protest of the West's failure to protect them, while protests against Russia began in France, and Turkey. This comes as Lavrov, Russia's Minister of Foreign Affairs, called negotiations on Syria with the US, useless. He also noted that talks with Turkey could be more productive.

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Turkish Leo-2s keep getting hit by ATGMs around al-Bab.

Охота на "Леопардов" - Colonel Cassad

Russian SoF in Syria.

Работа ССО в Сирии - nortwolf_sam

The Syrian Express continues.

Скоро во вÑех твиттерах Турции... - Код БармалеÑ

A brief OSINT article from bellingcat about the 7 year old Syrian girl from Aleppo.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/men...d-verification-using-open-source-information/

A look at how oil production continues outside regime held areas.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/men...e-monitoring-makeshift-oil-sites-deir-ez-zor/

The US plans to ramp up presence in Syria with 200 extra troops.

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