Royal New Zealand Air Force

[ngatimozart]

Hi Mate, yes that 30% reduction in cost of the P-8A is a goodly sum!

Just a pity it's the exception rather than the rule with it comes to military aircraft procurement cost!

And yes it will be interesting to see what happens with the KC-46A cost as the production process matures and they iron out all the kinks, etc, you would expect it to (maybe not as much in % terms as the P-8A), but it is being manufactured under the same 'in-line production' process as the P-8A.

I suppose the big difference, as I see it, between the KC-46A and the KC-30A, is the different 'focus' when it comes to the main deck.

KC-30A gives you that much larger passenger capability, at the expense of a main deck cargo capability (at least until the French eventually take delivery of one or their latter units that I understand is planned to be configured with a main deck cargo door), on the other hand the KC-46A is configure to have a main deck cargo door for greater main deck cargo capability, but at the expense of a lot smaller passenger capability.

Horses for courses, hey?

Gidday mate,

Yes it is horses for courses and the KC30 is to much aeroplane for us, whereas the KC46 would be at the top of the capability range that we would look at. One advantage that it does have from a NZG POV is that it has the range for McMurdo operations without the point of no return flight restrictions. They did look at trialling an Air NZ B767 a couple of seasons ago but for some reason that didn't go ahead and now Air NZ only have 3 B767 left and those will be retired early 2017. Whilst IMO the KC46 would be ideal, I think that they may go with a B737-800 ER type along the lines of the - 8MAX or similar.

 

[40 deg south]

The Norwegian Government has Decided to Procure Five P-8A Poseidon

Another Norwegian Government release on P-8, which somehow manages to not contain any new information.

 

[40 deg south]

Spanish MoD Will Hire Aeronautical Engineers to Certify That the New A400M Deliver on Their Promises

Sensibly, Spain is contracting independent engineers to check that their first A400M meets design specification.

Given the aircraft is assembled in Spain, there could be pressure to turn a blind eye to any minor shortcomings. It looks like their procurement agency wants to keep things clean and above-board. Given Airbus must by up around airframe no. 30 by now, any teething problems should be under control.

 

[40 deg south]

Since the K2 upgrade avionics spares in particular have been a major headache. Whoever's job it was to figure out how many parts PLUS spares the RNZAF needed screwed up big time and the issue has been known for years and not resolved.

With avionics there are obsolescence issues and there should have been a plan in place from the get go to address them (i.e gradual upgrades). Naturally what actually has happened is stuff is only getting looked at now.

With respect to taking parts from other aircraft to service flying aircraft (cannibalising), this occurs with aircraft on ILM servicing as well as other non-flying aircraft in the hangar, not just DLM at Safe Air. At one point an aircraft on ILM had more than 50 cannibalisations, most of which were avionics parts.

There are some sub-components that are so obsolete they are no longer produced, and constant failure of those particular components has meant the number has serviceable parts in the pool has dropped significantly.

bob23
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for some very interesting posts.

In your view, is the problem that the required P-3C parts simply aren't available, or that NZ just hasn't been willing to pay to keep them in stock?

The latter problem can be fixed by increased funding, the former isn't so simple!

 

[swerve]

While there should be some cost savings with it being built on the same line as he civilian 767 I'm not so sure it will be in the ball park of the savings realized with the P-8. Being a smaller production aircraft in terms of numbers produced annually there is less room to make big savings..

The savings from building on the same line as the civilian 767 must be limited by the relatively small numbers of civilian 767s (all freighters AFAIK) now being built.

 

[htbrst]

bob23
In your view, is the problem that the required P-3C parts simply aren't available, or that NZ just hasn't been willing to pay to keep them in stock?

The latter problem can be fixed by increased funding, the former isn't so simple!

:rel the P-3K2's were originally P-3B's rather than P-3C's. While most parts are common, this difference has been an issue in the past - e.g. in the re-winging project :

 

[ngatimozart]

:rel the P-3K2's were originally P-3B's rather than P-3C's. While most parts are common, this difference has been an issue in the past - e.g. in the re-winging project :

Yep and they were the first P3Bs off the production line and the first export P3s.

 

[40 deg south]

Yep and they were the first P3Bs off the production line and the first export P3s.

ngati, htbrst
Good points, both of you.

 

[Rob c]

Yep and they were the first P3Bs off the production line and the first export P3s.

The main difference wa in the fatigue prone area's, structure and skin thickness, (eg the wings and tail), the systems were the same. 06 of course was of the later type and from memory they were for all intents the same as the C structurally and non avionics system wise. From the point of engine /airframe spares there was little or any difference. The unique to NZ avionics will be the problem and I am not sure how, much if any, of the older B and K avionics has been carried over as this could present a major problem.

 

[John Newman]

Yep and they were the first P3Bs off the production line and the first export P3s.

From what I understand they arrived in NZ between August 1966 and December 1966. And the single P-3B that was obtained from Australia in May 1985 was originally delivered to the RAAF in April 1968.


On a side note, ADF Serials is a great place to find 'individual' aircraft history for Australian and NZ military aircraft:

Welcome to ADF Serials

Cheers,

 

[SteveR]

The main difference wa in the fatigue prone area's, structure and skin thickness, (eg the wings and tail), the systems were the same. 06 of course was of the later type and from memory they were for all intents the same as the C structurally and non avionics system wise. From the point of engine /airframe spares there was little or any difference. The unique to NZ avionics will be the problem and I am not sure how, much if any, of the older B and K avionics has been carried over as this could present a major problem.

I used to fly 06 in RAAF 11SQN. The RAAF P3Bs were Deltic models with stronger undercarriage than the 5 original RNZAF P3Bs. Deltic modernisation allowed that AQA-4 Sonobuoy recorder to display 8 SSQ41 LOFAR buoys at a time by writing on both the forward and reverse sweep of the stylus on the sonographs viewed by the operator. The original pre-Deltic P-3Bs could only monitor 4 LOFAR buoys. I think your P-3K upgraded to this to 8 and of course you are now getting a much more modern Boeing sonar upgrade.

The USN P-3Cs were fitted with the AQA-7 sono-processsor which allowed 16 LOFAR buoys to be processed along with increased sensitivity of Automatic Line Integration (ALI) and DIFAR directional buoys in place of the more cumbersome twin buoy CODAR DF required by the AQA-4.

 

[ngatimozart]

I used to fly 06 in RAAF 11SQN. The RAAF P3Bs were Deltic models with stronger undercarriage than the 5 original RNZAF P3Bs. Deltic modernisation allowed that AQA-4 Sonobuoy recorder to display 8 SSQ41 LOFAR buoys at a time by writing on both the forward and reverse sweep of the stylus on the sonographs viewed by the operator. The original pre-Deltic P-3Bs could only monitor 4 LOFAR buoys. I think your P-3K upgraded to this to 8 and of course you are now getting a much more modern Boeing sonar upgrade.

The USN P-3Cs were fitted with the AQA-7 sono-processsor which allowed 16 LOFAR buoys to be processed along with increased sensitivity of Automatic Line Integration (ALI) and DIFAR directional buoys in place of the more cumbersome twin buoy CODAR DF required by the AQA-4.

Yes apparently it's very similar to the system in the P8, which kind of points to where the govt is heading with the Orion replacement.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

An interesting note from Flight Global about NZ interest in the possible Special Forces upgrades being considered for the NH 90.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...nh90-helicopter-still-under-considera-432295/

 

[Rob c]

An interesting note from Flight Global about NZ interest in the possible Special Forces upgrades being considered for the NH 90.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...nh90-helicopter-still-under-considera-432295/

It would be nice if they used this as a reason to enlarge the fleet with additional special forces NH90s. But I fear that any interest would be channeled into modifying the existing units.

 

[ngatimozart]

It would be nice if they used this as a reason to enlarge the fleet with additional special forces NH90s. But I fear that any interest would be channeled into modifying the existing units.

Two more would be good but yes you are probably right there. Although with serious surpluses in the offing they can afford two more NH90s and marinised ones at that. However I will not hold my breathe.

 

[ngatimozart]

The RNZAF has completed its summer season airlift* to Antarctica. Both the B757 and C130 were utilised and Pegasus field has now permanently closed, with the last flight being a RNZAF C130 on Thursday 8/12/2016. Flight Operations have now moved to Phoenix Field, a new runway 5km NW of Pegasus.

*NZDF Facebook post

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Two more would be good but yes you are probably right there. Although with serious surpluses in the offing they can afford two more NH90s and marinised ones at that. However I will not hold my breathe.

With a new Prime Minister like Bill English, wouldnt that mean a new Defence Minister too, what will that mean for the planned DWP, could it be altered by future leadership? What would Bill English take on Defence spending be i wonder.

 

[gf0012-aust]

MrC would you believe Freudian slip? As soon as I hit the submit button I realized that my "We" would draw criticism. As T68 said it was a reference to 5i's membership as a whole.

I looked today at the latest wiki info for the P8 price and saw the $125 million price. I am stunned. The talk to date has been of an aircraft with a price in the $200 million range. If this is truly the case and the recent contract of Norway is representative of a realistic in service cost with training and initial support then that is not out of line. I still have to question whether the technology dependence is not a detriment as the numbers have fallen so low. If this is the direction NZ is likely going to follow I agree then with Ngati's numbers of five P8 and three UAV's of some type. Time will tell.

there is a significant technological and capability gap between Aust AP3C's, USN P3C's and the P8's - and I'm not just talking about frames

familiar tech such as MAD booms aren't needed anymore. the sensor suite capability is at the generational curve, They are literally the JSF of airborne ASW

 

[ngatimozart]

With a new Prime Minister like Bill English, wouldnt that mean a new Defence Minister too, what will that mean for the planned DWP, could it be altered by future leadership? What would Bill English take on Defence spending be i wonder.

We'll have to wait and see with the new Cabinet line up. He has a different take on things than Key has and from what I've read is far more academic in his approach. He will have to move some current members of Cabinet out in order to bring some new blood in so I would expect the poor performers and some old timers to go. My preference would be for Big Gerry to remain as Minister but if that's not the case then Paula Bennet or Judith Collins. However Collins is after the education portfolio and if she got Defence that may mean her having to be elevated to the Kitchen Cabinet which might cause problems because of the baggage she carries. That said she has always been a really good Minister in what ever portfolio she has had. Both Bennet and Collins are hard workers and strong advocates for their portfolios so that's why I think that they would make for good defence ministers.

 

[Rob c]

We'll have to wait and see with the new Cabinet line up. He has a different take on things than Key has and from what I've read is far more academic in his approach. He will have to move some current members of Cabinet out in order to bring some new blood in so I would expect the poor performers and some old timers to go. My preference would be for Big Gerry to remain as Minister but if that's not the case then Paula Bennet or Judith Collins. However Collins is after the education portfolio and if she got Defence that may mean her having to be elevated to the Kitchen Cabinet which might cause problems because of the baggage she carries. That said she has always been a really good Minister in what ever portfolio she has had. Both Bennet and Collins are hard workers and strong advocates for their portfolios so that's why I think that they would make for good defence ministers.

Bill English was reasonably pro defence in his earlier years, but a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then so we will just have to what and see.