More reports that India is purchasing it, so what is the truth is not yet clear.
Pacific Sentinel: News Report: India to Purchase Sole C-17 Transporter in Boeing's Inventory
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
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Pacific Sentinel: News Report: India to Purchase Sole C-17 Transporter in Boeing's Inventory
that article is about the same quality of defence writing in Oz
the performance issues are not performance issues - they are housekeeping efficiency, loadmaster and logistics issues - maybe they should be speaking to loadmasters from other airforces....
There also could be the issue of altitude as the Indian air force does operate from some fairly high altitude airfields in the north of the country which depending on length would seriously degrade performance of any aircraft in regard to payload. It does beg the question though , if NZ had got C17s would we have the load sizes to justify the aircraft? Something like the C2 or A400 may be more suitable in size for us. It is interesting to note that on recent reviews of the C2 the low noise level in the main cabin has been remarked on saying that it is around the level of a commercial jet, making it comfortable for passenger use. The C2 can carry 20 tonne to Antarctica and return without refueling, saving on fuel needed to be transported south.that article is about the same quality of defence writing in Oz
the performance issues are not performance issues - they are housekeeping efficiency, loadmaster and logistics issues - maybe they should be speaking to loadmasters from other airforces....
t68
Well-Known Member
I believe the value in C17 was not in it's max load capacity but in range and cost per hour to run.
I'm lead to believe from past discussion in this thread that RNZAF C130H has an operating cost per hour of roughly $18000, and C17 at $23000 although it dosen't state at load capacity, if by using those number a C17 at half capacity to C130H will have a cheaper operating cost than using 2x C130H to move the same amount over the same distance.
But no sence mulling over it now the option is off the table and I just can't see the USAF giving up a couple of stratigic lifters.
Costly Flight Hours | TIME.com
I'm lead to believe from past discussion in this thread that RNZAF C130H has an operating cost per hour of roughly $18000, and C17 at $23000 although it dosen't state at load capacity, if by using those number a C17 at half capacity to C130H will have a cheaper operating cost than using 2x C130H to move the same amount over the same distance.
But no sence mulling over it now the option is off the table and I just can't see the USAF giving up a couple of stratigic lifters.
Costly Flight Hours | TIME.com
Agreed I don't think that the C17 has been seriously on the table in regard to the RNZAF Strategic airlifter for some time. My personal favorite for this role is the C2 which has a very good range payload is quiet internally, so is passenger friendly and has mainly proven systems, basically a half size C17 in regard to range payload, half the payload for approximately the same range. I also don't see an easy road to get second hand ex USAF C17's, though not impossible.
I quite like the C2 and it would be a political, diplomatic and economic relations astute move to acquire say four from the Japanese. I would think that it would be cheaper to operate than the A400M; I could be wrong and even though a turboprop is easier fuel wise than a turbofan, I think that 4 x turboprops would be more expensive than 2 x turbofans. Also I've gone off the A400M because of the issues that it keeps having. Yes I know that they will be fixed but there is also the long term sustainment that may cost with the Europeans being tardy in their sustainment of military aircraft.
I would be quite happy with a C2 - KC390 mix. Don't know if it would happen but it'd be nice.
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
A mixed fleet of C2 and KC390 would be an excellent capability.
If the C2 is as quiet as a typical passenger transport is it probable that it would be the replacement for the B757? With a 2025 replacement date that does allow a tail end production timeline allowing Japanese orders to take place.
Given my previous folly regarding the size of the cargo space due to the placement of a wing box will an NH90 fit in a C2?
If the C2 is as quiet as a typical passenger transport is it probable that it would be the replacement for the B757? With a 2025 replacement date that does allow a tail end production timeline allowing Japanese orders to take place.
Given my previous folly regarding the size of the cargo space due to the placement of a wing box will an NH90 fit in a C2?
I would be very happy with a C2-KC390 mix and the C2 may be a good way for Japan start selling military aircraft abroad as it has little combat capability so would allow them to sell without ruffling to many feathers internationally. This may lead to a good deal to get the ball rolling, I agree that the C2 may be cheaper to operate than the A400 as the simpler turbo fans usually have several times the life expectancy to the complicated turbo props and the higher speed of the C2 would lead to greater utilization of the aircraft. At this time I would consider the KC390 as the front runner to the C130 replacement and to add the C2 as a 757 replacement would be the icing on the cake and would improve the RNZAF's air transport capability significantly, On the Dark horse side how about a fleet of C2s replacing both the C130 and the 757.
Sorry couldn't resist
I don't think it has the same tactical capabilities that the KC390 has and would be better suited in a NZ context for the strategic lift role.After thought: Add refueling probe like the Poms have to their C130s etc., and then greater capability set for C2 / KC390.
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The C2 is said to be air to air refuel able however in the absence of a probe I suspect that either the prototypes where not or they use the boom system, thought with the range it has it probably would not be used often. The take off distance in the tactical mode appears to be significantly shorter than both the C130J and the KC390 though obviously the smaller aircraft should be easier to fly in a tactical maneuvering situation.Sorry couldn't resist
After thought: Add refueling probe like the Poms have to their C130s etc., and then greater capability set for C2 / KC390.
Pretty sure that it will be the boom system because they have the KC-767 in their KC fleet which has the boom. Unsure about the C2 tactical landing / take off abilities.
Actually pretty good NG. The design parameters were for it get in and out of all the short offshore island strips that the current C-1A and C-130-H's get into.
As for the drumbeat. The first of the C-130 replacements needs to be delivered in 3 years for a IOC of Feb 2021 and the remaining airframes by 2022 for an IOC of Feb 2023.
The B757 replacement need to be delivered by 2025 for an IOC of February 2026.
Future Air Mobility Capability A Future Air Mobility Capability project is considering options for replacing the current tactical and strategic airlift fleets. The project will deliver a strategic airlift capability prepared to deploy, sustain and recover deployed forces and their equipment in support of global military operations, independently or as part of coalition operations. The project will deliver a tactical airlift capability able to move personnel and cargo within the South Pacific, to Antarctica, and in support of coalition operations further afield. The project is expected to deliver new aircraft to the Defence Force during the early-to-mid 2020s. The project will engage with industry at multiple stages.
Those dates and highlighted project considerations are shaping this.
Do you know what the drumbeat on the C2 for the JASDF is currently?
The second 'production' airframe is due early next year. At present there are plans to build 3-4 a year for the JASDF for a total of 30 by 2028.
With the Japanese change in attitude in regard to their military and the selling of military equipment to overseas customers, they could consider us as an ideal customer (not aggressive ,with good human rights and friendly ) and make any adjustments needed to get the sale. There was a bit of conjecture as to whether Embraer could make the RFI schedule but as an offer has been made I assume that they can.
A sale to the RNZAF would no doubt be a coup for their international export reputation.
It would also have important synergies with the trade alliance side of things as well.
Yes, I also like you, think it could be a win - win for both sides in both the immediate military sales side and in the broader overall trade implications.
If KHI can partner again with LM like they have in the past but on the support side rather than production side they will have a compelling case. KHI will have to test CBR ratings for ice and coral pack surfaces though on the tactical side. They say no problems but theory needs to be proven.
The A400M will get over its current issues and will have a strong case as well. The production backlog due to these issues is the big worry and there will have to be work on the defence diplomacy side to find a drumbeat that can match production slots. They will need to get the likes of Spain, France, the UK and Germany to each skip the IOC of one or two of their airframes which would delay them a few months. The consortium would be keen to bag a sale to us as an influencer for other future sales outside the Euro-Zone once the partnership orders are completed.
I would never rule the A400 out, as you point out the issues will be overcomeand it would do a good job, but I would see the C2 as having a lower risk factor as it uses proven systems and engines and like the KC390 and both have not tried to re invent the wheel. The C2 I would think will also be more passenger friendly as it would be very difficult to isolate the cabin of the A400 from the propeller beat of those four enormous turbo props, were the C2 is naturally quiet .