Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

RegR

Well-Known Member
So Reg, your opting for a 35mm solution for our lav3 then. While we are talking commonality of systems across the 3 services, how about the land based version of CAAM then for air defense,for the army? British Army have it in service, just a thought seeing its highly unlikely we see jet fighters in RNZAF in our lifetime doing so.
It does seem to be the direction some of our immediate allies are heading towards, no doubt after lessons learnt, justification and detailed analysis (most likely post Afghan as well), so would make sense to introduce a common calibre across the services via ships, LAV etc especially if we are aqquiring/upgrading the platforms anyway and good time to gain another capability set. Unsure on the differing requirements for "types" of round on the naval vs LAV versions so ammo loadouts could be vastly different anyway negating the "common" round to a degree and still causing seperation as I doubt we would get high end for all purposes.

We do seem to be lacking in the land based anti air department following the mothballing of the mistrals so yes the CAAM (L) could also be another option in the same vein as complimentary land based milleniums. All comes down to perceived gain, requirement and more importantly funding for justification but an interesting concept all the same providing a protective bubble for our troops on the ground as per our ships at sea.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This is a duplicate of a post I made in the Australian Army Discussions and Updates thread a day or so ago. My comments for the RNZN thread will be below
They should marry it to a decent AESA radar, a modern optical-electronic eyeball, and ideally a pack of 8-16 short-range missiles. Make it mountable on Boxers or Pumas chassis', and stick a btln into each mech/armored brigade/division.
It will fit on the Boxer and Puma, in fact most 8x8 wheeled IFVs. In fact the Skyranger 35mm turret is already integrated onto the Boxer.
The unmanned turret is equipped with a 35-mm revolver gun, which is based on successful 35/1000 revolver gun. It has a lot of commonality with the previous Oerlikon Contraves 35-mm air defense artillery systems. It has an dual feeding system, which gives the operator choice of two types of ammunition. This air-defense system is optimized to fire the company's proprietary 35-mm AHEAD (Advanced Hit Efficiency And Destruction) ammunition. It is a self-programming ammunition, developed to improve lethality of the previous GDS series of twin 35-mm towed antiaircraft guns. These rounds release a cloud of sub-projectiles just ahead of the target, greatly increasing the probability of a kill. Fewer rounds of ammunition are required per kill, because of its effectiveness, permitting a greater number of engagements. A typical engagement sequence consists of 20 - 24 rounds. It is effective against small and fast moving air targets. Effective range of fire is about 4 km. The AHEAD ammunition is already in service with more than 10 countries.

The Skyranger gun system is also effective against ground targets and can be used as a fire support weapon. It uses Frangible Amour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FAPDS) rounds against ground targets. Range of effective fire is about 5 000 meters.

This artillery system has a selectable rate of fire. A maximum rate is 1 000 rounds per minute. It is also capable of firing mini-bursts or single shots. A total of 220 rounds are carried for the main gun.

The Skyranger unmanned turret has an electro-optical tracking sensor, which automatically tracks the targets, assigned either by the control center, external radars, or targets acquired by its own sensors. The passive sensor system consists of an infrared camera, TV camera, laser rangefinder. It is an all-weather system, which operates in day or night conditions.

The Skyranger unmanned turret is operated by commander and gunner, seated inside the vehicle hull. There is also a vehicle driver.
Skyranger 35mm turret
One option for the SRSAM (Short Range SAM) could be the Starstreak HVM (High Velocity Missile) which the British Army are now using. It can be used as a MANPAD, a Lightweight Multiple Launcher with up to 3 missiles, or a mobile launcher. It's a laser beam rider, so isn't a fire and forget, but Thales claim that it can't be jammed. I wonder if it could be integrated onto the Rheinmetall Skyranger turret. It, like Skyranger, can be integrated into an air defence system. That system would make for a nasty surprise for any flyboys in the area with bad attitudes.

I don't know if you could get an electronically scanned array radar small enough to fit atop the turret. It would have to be either 3 faces or 4 to obtain 360 degree coverage and would need good power generation and cooling systems, plus they would have to be robust. Mind they can fit them to helicopters so may be possible.


I like Reg would prefer the Rheinmetall 35mm/1000 Millennium gun on RNZN vessels because it offers a wide variety of capabilities and synergies across NZDF. I would prefer the 35mm gun as the main weapon on our IFVs and the Skyranger as a SPAAG. Two Millennium guns on each frigate and one plus an existing Typhoon on OPVs with the Typhoon atop or just for'ard of the hangar.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Yep, and it would have obvious synergies with Sea Ceptor that even pollllies and Treasury could get. :)

A video on Skyshield which is the fixed variant of Skyranger. It shows how the AHEAD ammo works. Of course Skyshield and Skyranger are the land variants of the Millennium gun.
Some decent capabilities here, hopefully someone in govt sees the gaping hole in our cover and the obvious benefits any combined/common systems could bring to the table. Two birds with one stone in some ways so surely at least worth investigating.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
It was asked earlier if the flight deck is capable of NH90 operations. Yes it is. Designed for 300 NH90 landings per year.

The Phalanx is being planned for installation on the quarterdeck. I am assuming that will give an arc of fire of at least 180 degrees. There is also a ready magazine to be located nearby.

I hope the various design options are released for public viewing.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I don't know if you could get an electronically scanned array radar small enough to fit atop the turret.
Selex sorry Leonardo (I hate that name) has been selling a 10 kg AESA radar for UAVs & the like for several years. In service in a few countries. Antenna 22 x 31 cm, range up to 20 km. PICOSAR - DETAIL - Leonardo - Finmeccanica. Made in Scotland.

Given that, it should be possible to make something that'd fit.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
I registered as an individual. Took about 15 minutes from start to finish. Where I live is very rural and Internet service is undersized and with the advent of streaming movie services evenings make downloads very slow.

...
Believe me, if your neighbours can download/stream movies, your internet isn't all that slow! I swear if Bill Gates supplied me with two tin cans and a piece of string that stretched all the way from Silicon Valley to the South Pacific, I would get a better voice connection and faster data speeds.

I still haven't managed to download the zipped LOSC RFI file, and am having to download it one document at a time.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Losc rft

These are details from the Littoral Operations Support Capability vessel Request For Tender issued last week by the Ministry of Defence. This is the most comprehensive tender release that the Ministry has released and the documentation is quite substantive. It appears to be have been very well thought out and states precisely what they are looking for, but still leave plenty of leeway for primes to be able to work and offer creative and practical solutions.

OPERATIONAL TASKS.
Detached Military Diving
Deep Salvage Diving
Platform Based Military Hydrography
Detached Military Hydrography
Detached Mine Countermeasures
Embarked Land Force Support (45 Personnel)
C4ISR Platform
Maritime Enforcement & Surveillance
Maritime SAR Response
Underwater Search & Recovery Response
Maritime Counter Terrorism Support
Maritime Disaster Response
Offshore Island Support
Defence Diplomacy & Ceremonial
Defence Technology Agency Support
Other Government Agencies Support
Defence Training Support

Crew: 70 RNZN and max 50 embarked forces.
Range: 6,000nm at 14 knots in SS3; 4,000nm at 16 knots in SS3.
Minimum endurance: 42 days with 120 personnel plus 2 dogs aboard.
Accommodation: 120 personnel plus 2 dogs.
Armament: 2 x 25mm Typhoon (1 x port, 1 x starboard), 2 x 12.7mm Mini Typhoon, 2 x .50HB HMG.
Sensors: navigation radar, surveillance radar, IRST, EOS, MBES & SBES.

The ships draft and displacement maybe restricted because of the maximum draft at the ammunitioning jetty at Kauri Point is 7.5m and the current maximum displacement alongside at Calliope Central is 3,600 tonnes. It is desirable that the ship be able to be refitted in NZ with the Calliope Dry Dock being the largest in the country. The Calliope Dry Dock constraints are based on 0.5m clearance and assumes a "wall sided" vessel at maximum beam extents:
Maximum Length: 150m
Width at keel block height: 19.5m
Maximum width at dock entrance: 21.8m.
The ship shall have a maximum total height above the waterline draft at Light Harbour Loading Condition beginning of Life of 38m.
The ship is to have a maximum draft of 7.2m. The ships breadth will not exceed the limits of those for transit of the Panama Canal (32.3m).

Ship shall be capable of unrestricted global deep water and littoral operations between the latitudes of 60 Degrees N and 60 Degrees S. The Ship shall be designed to sustain operations in the Littoral. The Crown defines the Littoral as a region lying along the shore, including coastal waters within 20 nautical miles of the shore, estuarine waters and enclosed harbours. Ships service life shall not be less than 25 years and shall have a minimum of 200 sea days per annum. The ship is to have an overall system reliability of 95%.

The flight deck will be for’ard of the bridge, capable of operating the NH90 (all up weight 15 tonnes) and the ship should be able to conduct helo ops up to the top of sea state 5 whilst underway or not making way. It should be able to conduct vertrep in upper sea state 5 conditions. F44 (Aviation Turbine Kerosene) fuel capacity is to 20m3 which is 15.5 tonnes. There is to be a hangar for two RPAS (UAV) with an approx size to the Schiebel S-100 Camcopter. They state that NZDF has not yet selected a RPAS solution but have formulated a generic size and weight. It also appears that, in this case (LOSC), a rotary solution would be preferred although a fixed wing solution would be considered.

The ship will be capable of RAS by both light jackstay and vertrep. Ship will be capable of carrying four 20ft TEU containers. The ship will have a two bed hospital and a morgue. It will be capable of operating 2 medium AUVs, 4 REMUS 100 AUVs and 4 DUSS.

The working deck down aft will be wooden or of some shock absorbing material and protected from green seas. They also require a 5.8m RIB to be deployed from the work deck. It also has to be capable of storing a RPAS and its container, as required, plus be able to launch and recover the RPAS. The working deck will also have 4 embarked boat positions excluding the RIB. The ship will have a moon pool, wet diving bell and a subsea crane. Embarked boats or ships boats can be launched and recovered via the stern mounted slipway or the subsea crane.

This looks like it may be a reasonably large vessel maybe around the 3,000 – 3,500 tonne class.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
These are details from the Littoral Operations Support Capability vessel Request For Tender issued last week by the Ministry of Defence. This is the most comprehensive tender release that the Ministry has released and the documentation is quite substantive. It appears to be have been very well thought out and states precisely what they are looking for, but still leave plenty of leeway for primes to be able to work and offer creative and practical solutions....
Thanks Ngati.

A very useful summary for those of us who can't read the damned originals!

Will be interesting to see the September issue of Navy Today, which promises a write-up on the project.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Good to see they are finally getting used on the Opv. Janes defence mentions the added 'offensive capability' the Seasprite offers, but i hear the ship has no means to store torpedoes, or missiles it may deploy?
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
These are details from the Littoral Operations Support Capability vessel Request For Tender issued last week by the Ministry of Defence. This is the most comprehensive tender release that the Ministry has released and the documentation is quite substantive. It appears to be have been very well thought out and states precisely what they are looking for, but still leave plenty of leeway for primes to be able to work and offer creative and practical solutions.

Crew: 70 RNZN and max 50 embarked forces.
Range: 6,000nm at 14 knots in SS3; 4,000nm at 16 knots in SS3.
Minimum endurance: 42 days with 120 personnel plus 2 dogs aboard.
Accommodation: 120 personnel plus 2 dogs.
Not sure why, but I like the fact they have planned for the eventuality of having two dogs on board (drug/bomb detection, presumably).

The ship is to have a maximum draft of 7.2m. The ships breadth will not exceed the limits of those for transit of the Panama Canal (32.3m).
I'm not sure what design could be offered that could plausibly exceed the dimensions of the Panama Canal. Hang on, there's always this one:
https://www.mhi-global.com/products/detail/3d_sea_bottom_resource_exploration_vessel.html

The flight deck will be for’ard of the bridge, capable of operating the NH90 (all up weight 15 tonnes) and the ship should be able to conduct helo ops up to the top of sea state 5 whilst underway or not making way.
By for'ard of the bridge, are we talking something like this (h/t Nova):
Australian Defence Vessel (ADV) Ocean Shield - Naval Technology
Could a platform so far above the centre of gravity really be used in Sea State 5?

There is to be a hangar for two RPAS (UAV) with an approx size to the Schiebel S-100 Camcopter. They state that NZDF has not yet selected a RPAS solution but have formulated a generic size and weight. It also appears that, in this case (LOSC), a rotary solution would be preferred although a fixed wing solution would be considered.
https://schiebel.net/products/camcopter-s-100/

Brochure here. The S-100 has previously been demonstrated in NZ for civilian use (power grid inspections). I think the SAAB Skeldar is a similar size.

Ship will be capable of carrying four 20ft TEU containers. The ship will have a two bed hospital and a morgue.
The RNZN diving team are often involved in salvage/recovery tasks that are outside the scope of the police dive team. Inclusion of a morgue seems like a prudent bit of planning.

The working deck down aft will be wooden or of some shock absorbing material and protected from green seas.
Is this normal/typical for vessels of this type?

Finally, the big question to the nautical readers. Can anyone point out the sort of vessel that could meet these requirements? No necessarily a specific ship, but a class or type that would broadly comply with the RFT?
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
40 Deg South the use of a sacrificial deck material like wood planking is very normal in the offshore supply world. It allows cargo to be loaded and unloaded without concern for wear and tear on the structure of the vessel.

Besides HMS Echo as an example there are numerous designs currently available from the offshore oil and gas industry that can be tweaked to suit the needs of the design. The elevated help deck as shown in the previous post would not likely meet the needs of the RFI because of the desire for a hangar for the RPAS.

it will be interesting to see the final design as the specs in the RFI have been very finely crafted so as to provide a very efficient multipurpose work platform. A larger hull will allow for all tasks to be performed hopefully with a measure of growth opportunity over the ships lifespan.

The impact of the container ship Rena is evident in the design criteria as Ngati pointed out she is to be available for Maritime Disaster Response. I believe that once she is in service she will become a very sought after resource and be a very prized posting.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
40 Deg South the use of a sacrificial deck material like wood planking is very normal in the offshore supply world. It allows cargo to be loaded and unloaded without concern for wear and tear on the structure of the vessel.

Besides HMS Echo as an example there are numerous designs currently available from the offshore oil and gas industry that can be tweaked to suit the needs of the design. The elevated help deck as shown in the previous post would not likely meet the needs of the RFI because of the desire for a hangar for the RPAS.

it will be interesting to see the final design as the specs in the RFI have been very finely crafted so as to provide a very efficient multipurpose work platform. A larger hull will allow for all tasks to be performed hopefully with a measure of growth opportunity over the ships lifespan.

The impact of the container ship Rena is evident in the design criteria as Ngati pointed out she is to be available for Maritime Disaster Response. I believe that once she is in service she will become a very sought after resource and be a very prized posting.
Thanks Nova, very interesting.

Good point re RPAS access to flight deck - something I had completely overlooked. I agree that the MV Rena sinking and subsequent oil spill exposed a gap in NZ's disaster response capabilities, and possibly softened up the government for overdue investment in this area.

Looking across the Tasman, Australia has recently gained two submarine support/rescue vessels from Damen in Vietnam. Operated by a private contractor, the larger of these (MV Stoker) looks as if it may have a helicopter on the front deck, although I haven't
found any details.

http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Jul2015/...nd-rescue-capability-boosted.htm#.V9B7JjV5LiQ

Links to other classes/designs that might be contenders would be appreciated - my knowledge of ships (and many other things) is extremely limited.

Finally, here is the current dive vessel at work.
NZDF - NZDF to Help Destroy Unexploded Munitions in Solomon Islands

Interestingly, she is a converted North Sea rig tender.
RNZN - Manawanui
 
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