Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[Novascotiaboy]

Excellent news for RNZN. Hopefully the process of acquisition has turned a corner for you. I would love if our government could get its act together. At the rate we are going the replacements for the Halifax class frigates will be coming online before we get the Cyclone naval helicopter that was supposed to have been bought for them 25 years ago as a replacement for our now 52 year old Sea Kings.

 

[Rob c]

The Cabinet have given approval for a RFT to be released for the the LOSC.

Great news, I cannot remember defence procurement procedures moving at this pace since the 1960's. Hopefully we will get a better handle on the Navies thinking on this ship, When could we expect to see the RFT itself?

 

[ngatimozart]

Great news, I cannot remember defence procurement procedures moving at this pace since the 1960's. Hopefully we will get a better handle on the Navies thinking on this ship, When could we expect to see the RFI itself?

Don't know. I had a look before and it wasn't posted.

 

[chis73]

Great news, I cannot remember defence procurement procedures moving at this pace since the 1960's. Hopefully we will get a better handle on the Navies thinking on this ship, When could we expect to see the RFI itself?

Presuming you mean the RFT rather than the RFI, early September according to the NZ Herald

New Navy ship confirmed by Defence Minister Gerry Brownlee - Politics - NZ Herald News

One ship is better than no ship, but hardly a robust (or reliable) capability.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Er, Chris73, what do mean by not a robust or reliable,the ship ? I would have thought it essential piece of kit, given we live on fault lines too. Our diving and MCM team should of had this upgrade yrs ago.

 

[chis73]

Er, Chris73, what do mean by not a robust or reliable,the ship ? I would have thought it essential piece of kit, given we live on fault lines too. Our diving and MCM team should of had this upgrade yrs ago.

I mean that it is a capability that really needs more than one ship to ensure that it can be performed, especially for such an emergency response mission. One ship is quite likely to be unavailable when you need it - either in refit, or deployed overseas. Therefore, as a capability it will be neither robust nor reliable. It should be 2-3 ships filling this role.

To some extent an OPV can cover for it (as seen in the Cyclone Winston response), but not well.

The same charge can be leveled at the Canterbury (what backs it up?). Remember the 2009 Tsunami in Samoa when Canterbury was in dry dock?

This new ship is, IMHO, seriously overloaded in what it is being asked to do: i.e.
1. Replace Manawanui & Resolution (& Kahu) - so already it's pulling double duty compared to it's predecessors
2. Be on permanent standby as a critical part of a JATF or a disaster relief force
3. Deploy overseas more frequently than Manawanui or Resolution used to.

 

[40 deg south]

Presuming you mean the RFT rather than the RFI, early September according to the NZ Herald

New Navy ship confirmed by Defence Minister Gerry Brownlee - Politics - NZ Herald News

One ship is better than no ship, but hardly a robust (or reliable) capability.

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-ship-deliver-enhanced-naval-capability

The Herald piece was pretty much a cut and paste from Big Gerry's presser.

Well done to the Defence comms team for squeezing in the fact that it replaces two retiring ships. The point that NZ's defence expenditure is about half that of Australia and the UK doesn't appear in the release, so NZDF Comms or the Minister's press secretary probably fed it directly to the Herald journo.

https://www.facebook.com/RoyalNewZealandNavy/?fref=nf#

RNZN Facebook are promising a big write-up on it in September's Navy News.

Re Chis73s point, that is simply the reality of being a small navy. Given budget constraints, hard to see how two LOSC vessels could be justified. The sad reality is that some of the time, the capability NZ wants will be unavailable due to servicing/other commitments.

 

[ngatimozart]

The LOSC RFT has been released and it is a complicated series of documents to read. The download was around 48MB and that was a zipped file. The technical specs document is very detailed and just under 300 pages in length. So far I have gleaned that the flight deck shall be either above the foc'sle or the bridge and that they are planning the hangar for two RPAS with an approx size to the Schiebel S-100 Camcopter. They state that NZDF has not yet selected a RPAS solution but have formulated a generic size and weight. It also appears that, in this case (LOSC), a rotary solution would be preferred although a fixed wing solution would be considered. The ship will have ISR capability as well as MCM, dive support and hydrographic capabilities. It will be capable of operating 2 medium AUVs, 4 REMUS 100 AUVs and 4 DUSS.

The working deck down aft will be wooden or of some shock absorbing material and protected from green seas. They also require a 5.8m RIB to be deployed from the work deck. It also has to capable of storing a RPAS and its container, as required, plus be able to launch and recover the RPAS. The working deck will also have 4 embarked boat positions excluding the RIB.

It appears to have accommodation for 36.

I will post more later.

 

[Lucasnz]

LOSC Tender

I've been working my way through the LOSC Tender Doc. They are the most detailed documents I've seen come out of MOD. This is what I've been able to determine so far:

• Project Cost: $NZ275 Million Capital Plan Cost with expected tender range of $NZ165 - $180 million (Tenders outside that range will not be excluded).
• General Comments: Desirable to fit dry dock at DNB but not compulsory. Maximum Draft of 7.2 metres in full load end of life condition. Beam Constraint – Must be able to transit Panama Canal. The position of the RAS station optimised for abeam RAS operations with the RNZN MSC. Greater compliance with Allied Naval Engineering Publication (ANEP 77). Designed for operations upto SS5.
• Availability: 200 Days per year
• Endurance: 42 Days with 120 people: Core Crew: 70, Additional up to 50 (this includes an embarked force). 90 Days spares
• Speed: 4,000 – 6,000 NM @ 14 knots Cruising. There are two distance profiles, both specify 14 knots but at differing ranges. I would think the 6,000nm would be the more appropriate of the two.
• Sensors identified: Helicopter Approach / Littoral Surveillance - Sharp Eye S Band. ESM / IRST and Electrical Optical specified.
• Helicopter Capability: Flight Deck: Hangar - (2x Schiebel S-100 Camcopter have been used for planning purposes only).

Still working through it. I felt there was a greater emphasis on militarisation in some areas (i.e. Damage Control), but that could be just normal commercial practice today on a ship like this.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

How can I download a copy of the RFT? Do I need an account with GETS or can someone post a link?

I am intrigued by the plan to employ an S100 style UAV as this will provide many benefits to the RNZN and the NZDF as a whole.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

I have managed to secure access to GETS so I have the documents. Very detailed indeed.

Armament is two Typhoon, two mini typhoon, two manual HMG and provision for the future installation of a CIWS.

Nice to see a stern ramp for deployment and retrieval of ships boats.

Overall it should be a very capable platform.

Still lots to read.

Nice job RNZN as you have done a fantastic job laying out what you want.

 

[ngatimozart]

HMNZS Otago has been certified to operate the SH2G(I) Seasprite. A Sprite is to be embarked for a resupply mission to the Kermadec Islands by Otago. Nice to see this capability finally being fully employed.

 

[Sam W]

I have managed to secure access to GETS so I have the documents.

Did you make a RealMe account and register yourself as a supplier, or have you found another way?

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Did you make a RealMe account and register yourself as a supplier, or have you found another way?

I registered as an individual. Took about 15 minutes from start to finish. Where I live is very rural and Internet service is undersized and with the advent of streaming movie services evenings make downloads very slow.

With the potential for two more platforms to be CIWS capable what is the likely outcome of system acquisition amongst the opinions of those here? Is it likely that single Phalanx mount will be purchased to be shared between the MSC and the LOSC when the need arises.

Good to see the new Sprites working from the OPV.

 

[RegR]

With the potential for two more platforms to be CIWS capable what is the likely outcome of system acquisition amongst the opinions of those here? Is it likely that single Phalanx mount will be purchased to be shared between the MSC and the LOSC when the need arises.

While I would like to think we would purchase at least another system sadly I fear we will just go with the classic fitted for but not with and use the phalanxs from the ANZACs as/when/if needed. That's the money saving option.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

I kind of figured that would be the likelihood RegR.

If CIWS is a need for deployment to higher threat environments then a better armament solution is needed across the fleet of primary assets. Given the current limited gun capacity of the Canterbury, OPVs and the new MSC and LOSC plus the third OPV a move now to 35 mm Millenium would provide single shot, multi shot burst and full anti missile defence thus saving the purchase of separate systems while increasing the range of engagement and ability to protect the vessel.

The LOSC RFT states a need for port and starboard Typhoon as well as a possible future CIWS. Millenium negates the need for the CIWS. Millenium is fully stand alone and has no deck penetration making replacement on the existing hulls a snap.

The biggest threat to RNZN vessels IMHO is likely small fast boats with pirates or insurgents in littoral waters. This change would reduce the at see ammunition supply to 12.7 mm and 35 mm plus small arms instead of having the likely supply of 20 mm for Phalanx as well.

Now is a good time to upgrade with three new hulls coming online in the next four years plus the inevitable replacement of the frigates. The Danes have seen the benefits and I will be surprised if Canada doesn't follow down this path as well.

 

[RegR]

I kind of figured that would be the likelihood RegR.

If CIWS is a need for deployment to higher threat environments then a better armament solution is needed across the fleet of primary assets. Given the current limited gun capacity of the Canterbury, OPVs and the new MSC and LOSC plus the third OPV a move now to 35 mm Millenium would provide single shot, multi shot burst and full anti missile defence thus saving the purchase of separate systems while increasing the range of engagement and ability to protect the vessel.

The LOSC RFT states a need for port and starboard Typhoon as well as a possible future CIWS. Millenium negates the need for the CIWS. Millenium is fully stand alone and has no deck penetration making replacement on the existing hulls a snap.

The biggest threat to RNZN vessels IMHO is likely small fast boats with pirates or insurgents in littoral waters. This change would reduce the at see ammunition supply to 12.7 mm and 35 mm plus small arms instead of having the likely supply of 20 mm for Phalanx as well.

Now is a good time to upgrade with three new hulls coming online in the next four years plus the inevitable replacement of the frigates. The Danes have seen the benefits and I will be surprised if Canada doesn't follow down this path as well.

Agree, I do like the millenium system for all of the above (weight, hitting power, space, modular etc) plus the option of land basing and providing a mobile base defence for say a permanent deployed base such as Bamiyan so a joint defence purchase for navy, army (NZDF really) could have commonality benefits.

Also looks like a handy piece of kit on Ivers and absalons.......just saying.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Never gave a thought to the land based capability but for high risk deployments this could provide a high level of protection for defence from both aerial and ground based threats.

From purely an aesthetic perspective it would look a lot better than the existing Typhoons and with the enclosed house it would provide excellent weather protection.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

I've been working my way through the LOSC Tender Doc. They are the most detailed documents I've seen come out of MOD. This is what I've been able to determine so far:

• Project Cost: $NZ275 Million Capital Plan Cost with expected tender range of $NZ165 - $180 million (Tenders outside that range will not be excluded).
• General Comments: Desirable to fit dry dock at DNB but not compulsory. Maximum Draft of 7.2 metres in full load end of life condition. Beam Constraint – Must be able to transit Panama Canal. The position of the RAS station optimised for abeam RAS operations with the RNZN MSC. Greater compliance with Allied Naval Engineering Publication (ANEP 77). Designed for operations upto SS5.
• Availability: 200 Days per year
• Endurance: 42 Days with 120 people: Core Crew: 70, Additional up to 50 (this includes an embarked force). 90 Days spares
• Speed: 4,000 – 6,000 NM @ 14 knots Cruising. There are two distance profiles, both specify 14 knots but at differing ranges. I would think the 6,000nm would be the more appropriate of the two.
• Sensors identified: Helicopter Approach / Littoral Surveillance - Sharp Eye S Band. ESM / IRST and Electrical Optical specified.
• Helicopter Capability: Flight Deck: Hangar - (2x Schiebel S-100 Camcopter have been used for planning purposes only).

Still working through it. I felt there was a greater emphasis on militarisation in some areas (i.e. Damage Control), but that could be just normal commercial practice today on a ship like this.

I wonder if the helicopter deck would be accomodating a Seasprite, or Nh90, like the the new Endeavour replacement? At 14 knots the speed seems a bit low. Wouldnt it have trouble keeping pace as part of a Naval Taskforce too?

 

[kiwipatriot69]

So Reg, your opting for a 35mm solution for our lav3 then. While we are talking commonality of systems across the 3 services, how about the land based version of CAAM then for air defense,for the army? British Army have it in service, just a thought seeing its highly unlikely we see jet fighters in RNZAF in our lifetime doing so.