No, I would presume that it will be similar to the NH90 introduction into service. The P3s would stay until the their successor achieved IOC.
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
- Start date
Don't think that you could transfer much,if anything over. 36 million is not much to spend on a refit/replacement, so I would imagine what is being done is fairly basic improvements, which will improve reliability and allow the interaction with more modern gear and weapons. To a large extent the current ASW gear dates back to the original P3B gear as it was not included in either the "K" refit or the "K2" refit.
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In regards to the P-8 production rate based on current numbers they have enough to take them out to 2021-22 with FRP of 16 a year expected this year, though that assumes they dont slow down production later on to give other nations a chance to decide on it. Australia did say they intend to order a further lot later on (2020's) to bring the fleet upto 15, I imagine the US would be quite helpful in keeping production open for us considering our relationship and location so NZ may be able to piggy back off Australia's future order.
The problem with Devonport is access, any high density housing development that would be located at the former base would put a huge strain on the already well above capacity Lake Road.
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
Exactly what i was hoping for, another joint purchase with Australia, to drive down costs for us,so hopefully our pollies wont dither around like they did with C17.
It is a remarkable concept and now in production is the Pilatus PC-24 and does have some limited transport capability as well as other potential possibilities as per MEPT, Medevac, VIP. It could be useful in that Pacific HADR 'spoke' role along with the NH-90 - it having rough short field (sub 1000m T&L) light airlift attributes able to carry max 1250kg payload over a 2200km range - with very good 3600km range (enough for the OZ eastern seaboard and SoPac capitals in VIP pax mode). With only a couple of exceptions SoPac minor runways are mostly either packed coral or tarmac and typically circa 1200m which is ample enough - so it is definitely operable within those parameters. Surveillance capability again would be something also quite achievable adopting the Spectre ISR package from Pilatus as used on the smaller PC-12. It is an aircraft which is beginning to tick more boxes than the B-350 as a RNZAF solution and the acquisition price and very important through life costs are comparable. Yes the RAF have been interested in a light jet solution for MEPT. One of the commercial consortium offers at one stage was the Cessna Mustang VLJ.
They are becoming commercially popular. We could simply roll the B200 lease contract with Hawker over on a 2yr basis to find available production slots (though there are still chances that some of those current orders maybe vapourware as often happens). I wonder if Hawker will offer a fight back product though as the PC-24 is gaining market share traction?
Along with a basic maritime surveillance radar. They aren't that heavy any more (~150kg) and if weight is really a problem, then a helicopter one could do the job. Elta, for example, would have something that may fit the bill. I do like the quick change ability that Pilatus have with the PC12 Spectre ISR which hopefully should be good with the PC24.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
I see Hawker Pacific market the Cessna Citation series.
An earlier Citation variant called UC-35A is operated by the US Army and UC-35C is operated by the USMC, in a pax/cargo operational support role.
No mention though of military Citations fitted for ISR roles though. The ADF are acquiring the Gulfstream G550 for such roles, perhaps in the interests of commonality I wonder if the NZDF are interested in the same Gulfstream ISR variant and/or stock-standard Gulfstream's for MEPT and VIP/pax etc?
I did find it somewhat odd when Ngati posted the FAMC and FASC documents that the synergies between the two projects appeared to be FASC > FAMC and not the other way around (after all would a FASC P-8 acquisition have much to do with FAMC, as in 737's?), but if that is also in relation to a smaller biz-type jet fitted for ISR but also with some minor pax/cargo roles when required (eg HADR quick assessment response) then perhaps that makes some sense ... maybe?
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/video-a400m-carries-out-sand-strip-landing-tests-428776/
Video here reminding us that A400 capabilities are still being rolled out.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/175596/.html
Defense-aerospace update, with slightly acerbic end-note.
We've previously discussed whether Airbus would be able to deliver aircraft in time to meet NZ's requirements. As I understand it they have 174 firm orders, but I'm unsure if that includes the 'surplus' airframes Germany and Spain are trying to back out of.
According to the link above, deliveries to date are 31. Airbus hoped to hit full rate production this year of 20 aircraft, but will almost certainly fall short because of the gearbox issue. Now they have an interim gearbox fix, I'd take a stab at 12 deliveries this year and 20 a year from here on out.
NZ requires the first aircraft by February 2020 for IOC a year later. Full operational capability required by Feb 2024. so all aircraft delivered and in service by that date.
Even discounting any further deliveries this year, if they hit the 20/year target in 2017 it means another 60 aircraft delivered before NZ requires the first airframe. That will take the total delivered to about 90, over half of the total ordered.
Under these circumstances, I'd be amazed if Airbus and partner nations couldn't rustle up a single aircraft for delivery to NZ at the beginning of 2020, with (probably) three more to follow over the next two years.
Sure, Airbus is under huge pressure from A400 customers to deliver aircraft right now, but I'd anticipate this will ease over the next three years. I think a bigger risk to the A400 is the gearbox and fuselage cracking issues proving more intractable than currently believed, or some completely unexpected new problem emerging. Which, given the history of the programme, is far from impossible.
Assuming things finally begin to run smoothly for Airbus, I'd rate the A400 as a strong contender for NZ. Especially if the current Minister with his Antarctic enthusiasm still holds the portfolio in 2018. On paper the aircraft is a good fit for NZ. The only question is whether the initial production issues can be overcome, and whether the feedback on reliability and running costs from the RAF/other users is positive.
Video here reminding us that A400 capabilities are still being rolled out.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/175596/.html
Defense-aerospace update, with slightly acerbic end-note.
We've previously discussed whether Airbus would be able to deliver aircraft in time to meet NZ's requirements. As I understand it they have 174 firm orders, but I'm unsure if that includes the 'surplus' airframes Germany and Spain are trying to back out of.
According to the link above, deliveries to date are 31. Airbus hoped to hit full rate production this year of 20 aircraft, but will almost certainly fall short because of the gearbox issue. Now they have an interim gearbox fix, I'd take a stab at 12 deliveries this year and 20 a year from here on out.
NZ requires the first aircraft by February 2020 for IOC a year later. Full operational capability required by Feb 2024. so all aircraft delivered and in service by that date.
Even discounting any further deliveries this year, if they hit the 20/year target in 2017 it means another 60 aircraft delivered before NZ requires the first airframe. That will take the total delivered to about 90, over half of the total ordered.
Under these circumstances, I'd be amazed if Airbus and partner nations couldn't rustle up a single aircraft for delivery to NZ at the beginning of 2020, with (probably) three more to follow over the next two years.
Sure, Airbus is under huge pressure from A400 customers to deliver aircraft right now, but I'd anticipate this will ease over the next three years. I think a bigger risk to the A400 is the gearbox and fuselage cracking issues proving more intractable than currently believed, or some completely unexpected new problem emerging. Which, given the history of the programme, is far from impossible.
Assuming things finally begin to run smoothly for Airbus, I'd rate the A400 as a strong contender for NZ. Especially if the current Minister with his Antarctic enthusiasm still holds the portfolio in 2018. On paper the aircraft is a good fit for NZ. The only question is whether the initial production issues can be overcome, and whether the feedback on reliability and running costs from the RAF/other users is positive.
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t68
Well-Known Member
I concur not expecting a big order if A400M gets up, for my expectations from goverment. I am expecting Airbus will give a whole of complete package of C295/A400M/ KC-30A and if they play the cards right early delivery of C295 may or may not act as the first aircraft 2020. More wriggle room for A400M.
I expect both Airbus and Boeing will give good presentation's for a combination of aircraft as part of the tender and unsolicited bids. Lockheed should have the inside running with C130J and would be able guarantee a firm delivery date acceptable for NZG as they have firm production until the mid 2020's with the US always helpfully of giveing up production slots for various nations.
Just my $0.02 worth
I wonder if Embraer (with Boeing on board for support now, which could help sales) could deliver a KC-390 by 2020.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The Boeing relationship, the KC390's progress to date, and three years will make for an interesting race. It is an interesting project and I hope it is successful. The negative is the track record on new major aircraft launches, both military and civil, by all the major vendors. Upgraded aircraft, e.g. A320NEO, C-130J, the results aren't bad but the new stuff, not so much (787, A400M, F-35, C-Series, and a maritime helicopter the RCAF got stuck with).
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ccessful-show-debut-for-embraer-kc-39-427520/
Embraer KC-390 Makes Its International Debut At Farnborough Airshow | ShowNews content from Aviation Week
Embraer are planning for certification in 2017, entry into Brazilian Air Force service early 2018. So it is theoretically possible for them to meet the Feb 2020 deadline, but it will be very tight.Perhaps more significantly, the RFI stresses the need for robust data on operating costs, which will be pretty rudimentary for the KC-390 at that stage.
While everyone talks about building a simple robust aircraft largely from off-the-shelf components, Embraer have actually gone and done it. I hope NZ will at least give the KC-390 real consideration, even if it is still very much an outside chance.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...to-rival-turboprops-in-canadian-fwsar-420304/
This article makes an interesting claim - that the KC-390 comes fitted with a sensor package suitable for SAR work. If accurate, it would nicely tick the RFI box about providing additional surveillance capability.
John - speaking of maritime helicopters, what is the latest on Canada's longest-running soap opera?
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t68
Well-Known Member
Embrear has a full order books for the first few years as well, both A400M and KC390 will most rely on te good will of foreign nations production slts to meet the target date, but with some speculation that the C130 may last longer than advertised it give NZG some wriggle room.
I agree, I like what has come out so far on the KC390, and while not in the same class as the A400/C2 which would be my preferred size of air craft it is a definite step up from the C130 and if quoted prices are anything to go by , cheaper to. With its air to air refueling ability, both as a tanker and receiver it would also solve the point of no return problem which significantly limits C130 loads to the ice as it could take off with a heavy cargo load, then be refueled by a buddy partway to its destination.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The last article I read mentioned that 8 Cyclones have been delivered and training was taking place. Not sure if they are meeting specifications yet. The need is so urgent now it is likely the government will let LM/Sikorsky waffle on meeting them as the Liberals don't want to open a can of worms. After all, they are the fools that ordered a paper helicopter over the proven EH101 which was what the RCAF wanted.
The KC390 is one of three contenders for Canada's FWSAR project but it is a real longshot.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Some years ago I picked up an American hitchhiker northbound in Sanson. He said that he'd enjoyed seeing part of an 'antique aircraft show' just south of town.
I don't think he believed me when I told him that it was the RNZAF training a new generation of pilots on the venerable Sioux.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
I've just been looking at the Mobility RFI specs. In the Excel spreadsheet there is a tab called 'High Level Requirements' - there are separate columns for the Strategic and Tactical platforms, indicating whether a requirement is Essential, Desirable or Not Applicable.
I'll list a few below that caught my eye, in no particular order.
Antarctic Ops
This requires the capability to deliver a useful load (not defined) of passengers/cargo from Christchurch - McMurdo with no point of safe return (PSR). As this is highly challenging, the payload with a PSR at top of descent at McMurdo is also of interest. Return point is any suitable NZ airfield, which includes Invercargill (NZ's most southerly commercial airport).
This capability is rated Desirable for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
Large and Heavy Cargo
Carriage of large and heavy cargo - i.e. NH90 with minor disassembly, up-armoured vehicle
This capability is rated Desirable for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
Enhanced payload/range
Enhanced payload/range when compared to current aircraft
This capability is rated Desirable for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
Certification Basis
Aircraft must be certified by a recognised airworthiness authority, e.g FAA/EASA and MIlitary Specifications
This capability is rated Essential for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
VIP Transport
The ability to transport, both domestically and internationally, a delegation of VIPs and support staff with a 30kg baggage allowance each.
This capability is rated Essential for the Strategic and N/A for the Tactical platforms.
Upgrade Path
The capability to be maintained and modernised to match the evolutionary path of systems that support integration, interoperability, survivability and supportability for a minimum of 30 years
This capability is rated Essential for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
Self-protection
The capability to support operations that may be conducted in hostile areas and where there may be security threats when in a deployed forward operating base
This capability is rated Desirable for Strategic and Essential for Tactical platforms.
Search and Rescue
The capability to undertake SAR activities including search for and location of persons in distress at sea or on land, and subsequent assistance through airdrop of supplies and coordination of rescue activities.
This capability is rated Desirable for Strategic and Essential for Tactical platforms.
Austere Operations
The capability for autonomous operations from a forward operating strip with no ground support personnel or equipment...
This capability is rated Desirable for Strategic and Essential for Tactical platforms.
Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance
The provision of an ISR capability to detect, collect, process, evaluate and interpret available information
This capability is rated Desirable for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
AAR
The capability to receive and/or provide air-to-air refueling
This capability is rated Desirable for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
Physical Environment
Th capability to be operated across defined environments, including high-latitude operations (Antarctica)
This capability is rated Essential for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
There are others, but these were the ones that struck me as most interesting.
I'll list a few below that caught my eye, in no particular order.
Antarctic Ops
This requires the capability to deliver a useful load (not defined) of passengers/cargo from Christchurch - McMurdo with no point of safe return (PSR). As this is highly challenging, the payload with a PSR at top of descent at McMurdo is also of interest. Return point is any suitable NZ airfield, which includes Invercargill (NZ's most southerly commercial airport).
This capability is rated Desirable for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
Large and Heavy Cargo
Carriage of large and heavy cargo - i.e. NH90 with minor disassembly, up-armoured vehicle
This capability is rated Desirable for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
Enhanced payload/range
Enhanced payload/range when compared to current aircraft
This capability is rated Desirable for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
Certification Basis
Aircraft must be certified by a recognised airworthiness authority, e.g FAA/EASA and MIlitary Specifications
This capability is rated Essential for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
VIP Transport
The ability to transport, both domestically and internationally, a delegation of VIPs and support staff with a 30kg baggage allowance each.
This capability is rated Essential for the Strategic and N/A for the Tactical platforms.
Upgrade Path
The capability to be maintained and modernised to match the evolutionary path of systems that support integration, interoperability, survivability and supportability for a minimum of 30 years
This capability is rated Essential for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
Self-protection
The capability to support operations that may be conducted in hostile areas and where there may be security threats when in a deployed forward operating base
This capability is rated Desirable for Strategic and Essential for Tactical platforms.
Search and Rescue
The capability to undertake SAR activities including search for and location of persons in distress at sea or on land, and subsequent assistance through airdrop of supplies and coordination of rescue activities.
This capability is rated Desirable for Strategic and Essential for Tactical platforms.
Austere Operations
The capability for autonomous operations from a forward operating strip with no ground support personnel or equipment...
This capability is rated Desirable for Strategic and Essential for Tactical platforms.
Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance
The provision of an ISR capability to detect, collect, process, evaluate and interpret available information
This capability is rated Desirable for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
AAR
The capability to receive and/or provide air-to-air refueling
This capability is rated Desirable for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
Physical Environment
Th capability to be operated across defined environments, including high-latitude operations (Antarctica)
This capability is rated Essential for both Strategic and Tactical platforms.
There are others, but these were the ones that struck me as most interesting.
This starts to give us a handle on the thinking for these replacements and in my View changes the likely order of the potential aircraft. I think this would in the case of the tactical transport replacement shift the C130J to the back of the the listing. Possible order could be, C2/A400, then KC390 followed by C130J. The C130J misses out on to many of the desirable attributes, as well as the essential attribute of the UPGRADE path, due to the old hydraulic /mechanical controls and systems having already reached the end of their development potential. I think, to be a serious contender. However price will play a big part.
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