Can the C2 or the A400 satisfactorily take care of VIP requirements or does this confine those aircraft to the tactical category? Or for example could Japan bid the C2 and MRJ together for the strategic lift category?
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
- Start date
The provision for a passenger pod for VIP transport should not be to hard. It would be easier in the C2 as a pure jet it is a lot easier to control noise and vibration than in a propeller type aircraft. The C2 would also have the advantage of being significantly faster, which in the VIP role which would be an advantage. You could almost squeeze in two decks
In light of the essential and desirable attributes as registered in the FAMC RFI and with a view to the fiscal leverage of a commercial ‘package’ coming from a sole manufacturer, one possible solution from Airbus could be the A400M in the ‘tactical’ role along with the A321neoLR P2F in the ‘strategic’ role.
As noted previously in DT discussions Airbus are offering the A321 Neo LR from 2019 to harvest the B757F replacement market and ST of Singapore have signed with Airbus to develop the P2F variant. Palletized VIP/Troop Transport is a reasonable fairly straight-forward solution.
Airbus DS have been reported to be working towards palletized ISR capabilities for the A400M to sweeten the capability spectrum and possible orders. There is also work on ISR capability going on with respect to the MRTT so that could very well translate across to the smaller A321 variant. Mind you that does not necessarily mean foregoing the P-8 - just an adjunct that specialised tier 1 capability.
It will be interesting to see what the other possible consortiums for the FAMC come up with. However as an overall 'package' offer Airbus DS should have the essentials and desirables within the RFI fairly well covered within the capability spectrum of those two aircraft types and the 5+ year timeframe.
As noted previously in DT discussions Airbus are offering the A321 Neo LR from 2019 to harvest the B757F replacement market and ST of Singapore have signed with Airbus to develop the P2F variant. Palletized VIP/Troop Transport is a reasonable fairly straight-forward solution.
Airbus DS have been reported to be working towards palletized ISR capabilities for the A400M to sweeten the capability spectrum and possible orders. There is also work on ISR capability going on with respect to the MRTT so that could very well translate across to the smaller A321 variant. Mind you that does not necessarily mean foregoing the P-8 - just an adjunct that specialised tier 1 capability.
It will be interesting to see what the other possible consortiums for the FAMC come up with. However as an overall 'package' offer Airbus DS should have the essentials and desirables within the RFI fairly well covered within the capability spectrum of those two aircraft types and the 5+ year timeframe.
As an adjunct to the above discussion about Airbus A330 MRTT ISR (& Comms) capabilities, keep a close eye on what the RAAF are doing with it because they are the main drivers at present for this capability. They are setting the standard of how to utilise and expand the capabilities of the A330 MRTT, with the developments now being warfighter driven (Sqn and Wing level) rather than by a set of capability requirements, determined by a procurement directorate and associated committees. That's how they sorted out the problems they with the E7A Wedgetail and it is how they are finding how to really utilise the Wedgetail's capabilities. Because the Wedgetail capability is basically software centric it will never really achieve FOC because the software is being continuously tweaked and updated, with the hardware also undergoing the usual periodic MLU. It is suggested that the same will probably happen with the P8 in RAAF service.
Last edited:
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Rob
I am still sitting firmly on the fence!
However, it pays to remember that NZ's RFI's can be somewhat, erm, 'aspirational' (The classic phrase "Tell 'im 'e's dreamin'" springs to mind). Look at the tanker RFI; Ro-ro capability, 200+m vehicle lanes, two landing craft etc etc. Once the bids were opened, reality kicked in and we ended up with a conventional oiler with space for deck cargo.
The biggest single factor determining the path taken will be the make-up and mood of the government of the day. This will be determined (primarily) by what combination of parties wins the next election, and (to a lesser extent) the state of the government books in 2018. How risk-averse the DefMin, CDF and SecDef of the day are will also play a role. (If Winston is king-maker and Ron Marks DefMin, the C-130J is home and hosed. And those fancy American rifles can be sent back where they came from, while some stocks of trusty SLRs are unearthed!)
The second key factor will be how the in-development options (i.e. everything except the C-130J) are progressing in their first years of service. In terms of maturity, I'd rank them as follows
C-130J (by a country mile)
A400M
C-2
KC-390
I'd expect the order placed sometime in 2018, so anything could happen.
Mr C and Ngati - some excellent points in your posts. I'll respond later.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Well, either could squeeze in a delegation of VIPs and 300kg luggage per head, let alone 30kg!
As Rob says, some sort of VIP pod could be built, but that would certainly not be off-the-shelf.
My firm belief is that NZ will end up with a civilian narrow-body commercial airliner, as hinted at in a Cab Paper I wrote about a week or so back. It could be supplied direct (bought or leased) by Airbus or Boeing as part of a wider bid, on charter from Air NZ (if they bid) or independently from a third party.
A problem for the MRJ is the 'R' - it is a regional jet with significantly less range than the 757 it would replace. A shame, as it's a beautiful-looking aircraft, and probably has the passenger space for 95% of NZ VIP missions.
What we must take into account is how closely most of the attributes line up between both types. this would suggest that the RNZAF may be interested in covering the both roles with one aircraft type. This would make sense from a operating and purchase cost criteria. I think the document goes as far as it can both politically and commercially in writing the C130J out of the picture, which as you will know from my previous post is an aircraft i am not in favor of, as it is old technology. The augment that we should have the same as the RAAF, I think is flawed as the RAAF C130's would be over half way through their expected life when we get our replacements and would be retired in ten to 15 year after we got ours. So we would be left, holding the baby with a very old technology aircraft for the next 10 to 20 years out on its own.
If the RNZAF go for a one aircraft type to do both roles then i think that the two jet's (C2-KC390) have the inside running . There would also have to be a greater flexibility shown by Airbus than would be needed shown by the other manufactures in regard to the delivery schedule .
I would not be surprised if the RNZAF has already penciled in a front runner inregard as to what they want in both categories and the additional information in the RFI would reflect this.
Last edited:
kiwi in exile
Active Member
That's interesting and It will be good to see what this entails when it reaches maturity. However, I still think we will go with the P8. Would be a nice 'extra' to have but doubt we will go down this path (even if we get the A400- I hope we do- barring the miracle of C17s becoming available). I hope /see us getting the P8 and something like the PC24 or king air with ISR/MPA capabilities. Podded A400 ISR capability will be doubleing up on an allready met need. And the cost of intergrating/training people to use another set of systems from a different supplier will be unnecessary.
I liked the idea of this kind of system on something like a C27 or CN 295 when it looked as though these were options for the NZDF, but only as support for our 'tier 1' transport (A400/C17) and MPA (P8). But I've never really been into the idea of adapting a larger transport for ISR/MPA (sea herc, etc) beacause I believe that our needs at the higher end of the spectrum were to great to bugger around with by choosing a half arsed mix of both capabilities jack of all trades master of none. I also worry that combing roles in single airframes like this could be used to justify cutting numbers.
I can see that it would be great to have extra ISR capabilites to plug and play with should the need arise (there probably are scenarions). But unless the NZG screws up the P3 replacement, I don't think this will be needed, or the extra cost would be justified.
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
Being unable to locate any information on my own I am wondering if those more knowledgable here could provide any information regarding New Zealand's ability to deploy forces via parachute? Does the NZ Army maintain a Para capability outside of the SAS?
Is the C130 the primary jump platform for training or does the SAS and / or Paras use contract aircraft to provide this service?
Is the C130 the primary jump platform for training or does the SAS and / or Paras use contract aircraft to provide this service?
There used to be a 1RNZIR company trained in parachuting but in recent years (I think about last 15 - Reg will know) that was discontinued. The C130s are used but from what I've seen / heard in chatter on social media, I believe that the RNZAF PTSU (Parachute Training Support Unit) also use civilian contracted jump aircraft for some training. What types and how often I do not know.
Yes ngati over 15, only SAS, their supporties and PTSU are regular qualifiers now, some others but rarely so technically their qual 'lapses' if not maintained. They use 40 for ex's, cycles, bigger jumps etc and the civ plane for the rest (more economical). The french CASA now seems to be a regular visitor as well so our guys use the oppourtunity to jump with their guys and use that platform as well.
Guess it came down to cost, effort and requirement as to why it was limited way back in the day as definately was a good recruitment tool (for some at least) as another one of those more unique military acheivements.
A lot of truth in what you say and it will be very dependent on next government but I would not hold out much hope for the C130 as it is the least capable but not the cheapest. The KC390 is a far more capable aircraft and cheaper. In regard to the maturity of the C130 , it's my view that this is not a selling point as it has got to the stage of being too mature or to put it an other way the basic's are bloody old and really past their best before date and as I pointed out before in future years we would be left holding a very old baby after the RAAF quit theirs, which I imagine would be about the 15 to 20 year mark from now. I would think the C130 is dead in the water unless there is significant political pressure from out side applied, for some reason.
t68
Well-Known Member
I have to disagree, the aircraft stil fits within design limits of its primary user for its intended role, it's the NZDF that has out grown the design limits of the aircraft and it's future role.
Putting aside what the RAAF may or may not replace C130 with is a big premature as if the NZG decide that they want C130 the primary user of the aircraft will still be adding to its inventory untill the mid 2020, so the aircraft would still be supported untill the replacement is due.
B52 is still flying even being succeeded by two generation's of strategic bombers, it might be an old design but it's still relevant.
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
Thanks Ngati and RegC. I would have thought that maintaining at least a company per battalion would have its purpose but funding is always an issue.
As per the French C235 from New Caledonia how often does it and other French elements exercise with NZ forces?
As per the French C235 from New Caledonia how often does it and other French elements exercise with NZ forces?
I worked on the C130 for 3 years in the late 60's,early 70's and have a lot of time for it however I do agree with you when you said (it's the NZDF that has out grown the design limits of the aircraft and it's future role.)That it can do the job it was meant for YES, but can more modern aircraft do it better YES. and would more modern aircraft better fit what is needed, again I would say yes. but you are wright that at the end of the day the final decision will be by the pollies.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
If by chance the US government and the USAF were to make available 2-3 surplus C-17s, say at $200m each (support and spares not included), would this be considered by the pollies?
an FMS sale has to factor in sustainment, so you wouldn't see that kind of offer
Are you talking US$? If so US$200m each might be seen as a bit expensive because that's basically the price of new ones, give or take. If the deal was attractive enough and Boeing was agreeable to the support and sustainment as per their normal C17 maintenance package then I think that the pollies would give it serious consideration.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Sorry, I should have used US dollars. The last Cdn C-17 was $169m US which today is about $230m Cdn. This was one of the last whitetails so the price was likely better than pricing for the original first order of 4. This was for the plane only, no spares, no support, and no loader. I can't really see the US offering it for much less than $150m US. Then, as GF mentioned, the FMS would have to have support so this extra cost would be significant.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Probably better for someone other than this confirmed civilian to answer the latter question, but there is regular ongoing contact between French forces based in the Pacific and NZ counterparts. Every second year France contributes air, sea and land elements to Southern Katipo, NZ's premier combined-arms exercise.
Prairial in New Zealand for Southern Katipo Exercise - La France en Nouvelle Zélande
FANC-FAPF : Participation Ã* l’exercice Southern Katipo 15 - RP Defense
In the HADR field, there is a formal agreement about jointly working in the Pacific, which is very successful though entirely unknown to the wider public.
https://www.mfat.govt.nz/assets/_securedfiles/Aid-Prog-docs/Franz-Arrangement-Brochure.pdf
The light frigate Vendemiaire is a regular visitor, and I think is sometimes serviced at RNZN's Auckland dockyard.
https://www.facebook.com/RoyalNewZealandNavy/posts/10155257963138009
A Casa regularly participates in Exercise Skytrain, an annual (or biennial?) deployed logistics exercise.
RNZAF skills on show - Hawkes Bay Today - Hawke's Bay Today News
In short, regular ongoing contact over recent years.
Incidentally, my work used to take me around the Pacific a bit, and I was always impressed at how often you ran across a Casa. The Solomons, Vanuatu, Fiji or wherever - as you arrived/departed there was often one of these parked up on the tarmac.
Last edited: