Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
While browsing the Shephard Media site (an alternative to the better-established Janes group), I can across this intriguing snippet. I don't have access to read any more.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/mil-log/nz-explores-support-ship-options/

It makes me wonder if a lease is being considered to cover the gap between the Manawanui retiring and the new Littoral Operations Support Capability (hope I have the current acronym) vessel being delivered. Bear in mind that NZ is probably 1-2 years away from placing an order, and the Manawanui isn't getting any younger.

Can anyone else shed any light on the matter?
So far no one has responded to this question I asked a couple of weeks back ago. Another search on google brought up this page from the Government tender portal GETS.

https://www.gets.govt.nz/MD/ExternalTenderDetails.htm?id=17156025

Overview

The NZDF recently initiated a small feasibility study into vessel leasing on behalf of the RNZN. This activity is not related to the Littoral Operations Support Capability (LOSC) RFI or RFT. If it is determined that a lease is required then this will be initiated through an RFT on GETS in due course. The NZDF is not inviting enquiries or submissions relating to vessel leasing at this time.
So is it an interim gap-filler until the LOSC replacement is chosen and built? The wording above suggests otherwise to me? A trial run of an interim 3rd vessel to carry out OPV duties? Or something entirely unrelated?
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
So is it an interim gap-filler until the LOSC replacement is chosen and built? The wording above suggests otherwise to me? A trial run of an interim 3rd vessel to carry out OPV duties? Or something entirely unrelated?
Could it be more a type of ship rather than specific capability ie ice strengthened (properly) as our current ones kind of missed the mark? Any vessel can patrol to varying degrees and recent ops have shown MCM, hydro, dive to be alot more mobile and therefore not as commited to a particular ship (or ship period) and something they are confirming with a shared future platform.

Possibly a reserves craft for down south, maybe the cost of flying rockies north to sail south is adding up? Then again manawanui could just be showing her age and costing more than she's worth to keep afloat and as she is essentially a civilian vessel painted naval grey leasing another could be more cost effective to cover the gap until the new littoral hits the water.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
So far no one has responded to this question I asked a couple of weeks back ago. Another search on google brought up this page from the Government tender portal GETS.

https://www.gets.govt.nz/MD/ExternalTenderDetails.htm?id=17156025



So is it an interim gap-filler until the LOSC replacement is chosen and built? The wording above suggests otherwise to me? A trial run of an interim 3rd vessel to carry out OPV duties? Or something entirely unrelated?
If there is no documentation with the notice and little is, or has been said about this, in the public domain then it is difficult to ascertain the purpose. Since it has the appearance of being an RFI then it could be Defence just requesting information. Since it is for an OSV I could hazard a guess that it may be to trial such a vessel, especially in southern waters whilst they work out an OPV design.
 
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40 deg south

Well-Known Member
According to this report from the Norwegian Embassy in South Korea, HNoMS Maud should be finished on 30th September 2016.
www.sms1835.no/.../2014-08-27 Logistic Support Vessel%2...

Digging around on google brought up this interesting DSME powerpoint outlining progress with the Norwegian ship,. Has more details on internal arrangements of an Aegir than I have ever seen, and good description of engine/generator arrangements. Recommended.

If the link doesn't work, just google "DSME Maud BMT" and scroll down until you hit a powerpoint file.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
www.sms1835.no/.../2014-08-27 Logistic Support Vessel%2...

Digging around on google brought up this interesting DSME powerpoint outlining progress with the Norwegian ship,. Has more details on internal arrangements of an Aegir than I have ever seen, and good description of engine/generator arrangements. Recommended.

If the link doesn't work, just google "DSME Maud BMT" and scroll down until you hit a powerpoint file.
Nice find - loved the fuel ammunition combo. If NZ picks this up I'll be drooling in my sleep.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Nice find - loved the fuel ammunition combo. If NZ picks this up I'll be drooling in my sleep.
Lucasnz

It does look as if a lot of thought has gone into aspects of the design, such as the triage station at rear of helicopter deck, and connected by lift to the hospital directly below.

Any chance you can post a working link? - dammed if I can get it to work.

Has far more detail of the design than the slides gf links to.
 

htbrst

Active Member
Lucasnz

It does look as if a lot of thought has gone into aspects of the design, such as the triage station at rear of helicopter deck, and connected by lift to the hospital directly below..
His presentation is essentially available in the notes - a very cool find. There also appears to be a decompression chamber which could be handy to have to support diving operations when the LOSC was unavailable elsewhere.

The fendering situation on the mothership slide showing the side access doors/ramps looks like a good setup too.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
His presentation is essentially available in the notes - a very cool find. There also appears to be a decompression chamber which could be handy to have to support diving operations when the LOSC was unavailable elsewhere.

The fendering situation on the mothership slide showing the side access doors/ramps looks like a good setup too.
Ha! knowing how treasury has seen such a purchase in the past, they would go for it if only to scrap Manuwanui and not replace her, seeing the logic of having a ship that does both. After all,they replaced 13 hueys with 8 nh90's to achieve a similar lift didnt they?
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Breaking News

HHI in frame for New Zealand tanker programme | IHS Jane's 360

Janes reports that Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) has edged out DSME (the Aegir bit highlighted above) as preferred supplier for the Endeavour replacement. So we can now ignore the link I posted above! All the non-subscriber info below.

Key Points

HHI has been downselected as preferred bidder for New Zealand's Maritime Sustainment Capability project
A contract award is expected in mid-2016 subject to government approvals

Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) is poised to win the race to build a new fleet tanker for the Royal New Zealand Navy (RNZN).

The New Zealand Ministry of Defence (MoD) has confirmed to IHS Jane's that the South Korean yard has been downselected as preferred bidder for the Maritime Sustainment Capability (MSC) programme following the evaluation of best and final offers (BAFOs) submitted by HHI and Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (DSME) in late 2015.
A few random thoughts:

- RAN likely to be going with the Navantia tanker option - if they were leaning towards Daewoo the commonality benefits would probably have steered NZ in the same direction

- There has never been any public disclosure of what vessel Hyundai have put forward. Hyundai has been identified in some Indian media reports as provider of a series of naval tankers to be mainly constructed in local (Indian) yards, but details are sketchy. There is also talk of a new RoKN replenishment vessel, but I can't find much info in English, other than a photo of some models from a Korean naval exhibition. Any insights will be very welcome.

- An earlier report claimed that both Korean yards were working with UK partners. In the case of DSME, it was BMT with their Aegir design. But for Hyundai? Rolls Royce (which is struggling to break into the naval design field), Babcock, and BAE must all be possibilities, and probably some others I am unaware of?

- The DSME Aegir design (as above) looked a highly capable vessel, with capabilities far in excess of what NZ currently has. Is Hyundai's option smaller/cheaper?

- It's also fair to point out the decades of sterling service the current Hyundai-built Endeavour has given to RNZN. That may have given the Hyundai bid a sentimental advantage, although I doubt that would count for much with Treasury.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Chonji / Chun Jee class AOE

The RoK navy currently has three Chun Jee class oilers, with very similar dimensions to the current Endeavour (approx 120m long, 18m beam). Oddly, the figures given here show them as being significantly lighter. These vessels were commissioned in the early-mid 199s, not long after the Endeavour entered service in 1988.

Raytheon to provide Phalanx Block 1B CIWS to Republic of Korea Navy - Naval Technology

IN 2014 Korea issued a contract for Phalanx CIWS to be fitted to frigates and also three AOE-II class fast replenishment vessels to be built by Hyundai. These are supposed to supplement/replace the Chun Jee ckass described above.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

The above photo is the only one I can find that is supposedly of the AOE-II.

'Ambassador', a prolific Korean poster on other defence forums has claimed

With respect to that question, Hyundai Heavy Industries is currently constructing a new fleet of AOE-II class heavy replenishment tankers for the ROK Navy. The combat outfit of the ships have already been determined and the lead ship is at its final stage of construction now (it will likely be launched in 2015). In addition to this, the Navy also already operates three AOE-I class tankers which are among the youngest vessels in Navy inventory. Thus, in logistics support capabilities, the Navy will have three10,000-ton and three 25,000-ton class fleet tankers by the time of the LPX entering service, not counting the LST-IIs or other frigates that can provide the fleet with more needed capabilities and manpower (helicopters, ground logistics).
My guess. for what its worth, is that NZ's new tanker will be derived from this design. The timing fits, the size is roughly right, and having a production line already running might have given Hyundai a pricing edge over DSME.

If anyone has more info, I'd love to hear it.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Posted here to keep from going OT in the RAN thread:

Tod

Very good points. It's worth bearing in mind that the NZ OPV's were very much built down to a price, by a government that concluded we were living in a 'benign strategic environment' (to quote the then-PM). Post-cold-war wishful thinking was at its peak, so the air combat wing was disestablished and a life-extension programme for the P-3Cs didn't bother to include updating their underwater surveillance capabilities.

The OPVs were seen as a cheap way of doing EEZ surveillance and general constabulary work, as well as flying the flag to our nearby Pacific neighbors.'Anti-piracy' was a phrase that hadn't been widely used in over a century, and the spectre of Islamic terrorism hadn't yet emerged.

(Incidentally, rumour has it that the ice strengthening has reduced weight margins to the point where discussion of significant up-gunning is probably irrelevant).

Now they are fully in service, the OPVs appear to do what they were designed for well and cheaply. As regular readers here may know, the just-retired NZ Chief of Navy was an energetic advocate, lobbying the government to sell off two (from 4 hulls) of the much more limited IPVs in order to fund a third OPV.

Australia's OPVs will, perhaps unfortunately, be designed for much more troubled times. That said, many of the fit-out suggestions here stretch the boundaries of what is plausible and affordable. I'd expect a much better sensor and comms fit-out than NZ, a somewhat larger main gun, and a helicopter weapons magazine. Go much beyond that and you are looking at moving into frigate territory.

To me, the point of an OPV is getting more hulls into the water with modest-sized crews to increase the navy's presence and handle low-end tasks, freeing up frigates and more specialised vessels for high-end operations.If OPVs aren't cheap and cheerful, why build them at all?
I am aware of what the then-PM seemed to think about the NZ strategic environment. Hence my comment about ideology...

Part of my issue was and is, the degree to which it seemed that ideology played in the decision making process. A naval asset like an OPV (or other major military purchase) is going to be a long serving asset. Heck, the backbone of the RNZAF airlift are Vietnam era C-130H's which are most likely older than any of the service personnel who now come in contact with them.

With the fact that the OPV's might see 30+ years of service, it would seem sensible to allow for a bit of flexibility in terms of their potential future taskings. Granted the ice strengthening debacle negatively impacted future growth margins, a couple of fairly minor changes in design would still have permitted a greater range of future response options, and likely not had a significant impact on either cost or displacement.

These changes I have in mind would be first to have a space aft able to mount a second 25mm gun, or a 20mm Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS. The second the potential to swap the current 25mm gun mounting for a Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS. The third to have a magazine in the helicopter hangar, to permit an armed response using a naval helicopter.

Now an OPV is indeed intended to be a comparatively low cost, ocean-going patrol asset, with a significantly lower cost than a warship like a frigate. To give an OPV capabilities which approach that of a frigate, or even a comparbly sized corvette, would drastically increase the price. However, when compared to OPV's in service with other navies, the RNZN OPV's have a much lower degree of armament. This potential issue is compounded by the sheer scope of area which the NZDF is potentially going to be patrolling, and the relative remoteness. Looking at the Irish Naval Service as an example, virtually all of their OPV's are armed with either a 57mm or 76mm gun. Further, while the Irish Defence Forces might not able to respond to certain threats, RAF and RN forces are not too far away if something were threatening Ireland proper. The Irish OPV's are also sufficiently capable to participate in low threat operations well away from Ireland in task forces as well.

Had perhaps just a little bit more forethought been given, and/or less ideology involved in the decision, then the RNZN OPV's might have been made more flexible for future taskings.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Posted here to keep from going OT in the RAN thread:

Had perhaps just a little bit more forethought been given, and/or less ideology involved in the decision, then the RNZN OPV's might have been made more flexible for future taskings.
No disagreement from me on any of those points.

Project Protector delivered three very useful vessels to NZ (and 4 modestly useful ones), but for just a little more money it could have made them far more capable and given them potential for future growth. The old proverb about 'spoiling the ship for a hap'worth of tar' springs irresistibly to mind.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Slightly of topic, but according to Asia Pacific Defence Review for this month, there is a page or so on Nz defence upgrades, including underwater ISR to the P3 Orions.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Slightly of topic, but according to Asia Pacific Defence Review for this month, there is a page or so on Nz defence upgrades, including underwater ISR to the P3 Orions.
That was in the Feb edition, the new March edition is now available online.
 
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