Royal New Zealand Air Force

[ngatimozart]

An interesting development for A400, it appears France may buy upto 4 C130J to complement the A400 for inflight refueling and spec ops work, article also states that they are trying to make a AAR capabilty for the C295 as well. See what the frogs do.

Airbus Scrambles To Compete Against France's Planned Buy of 4 C-130s

Whilst the capabilty does not effect the RNZAF for AAR, but does point to it being to big for the specials. So NZ really needs to get this one right 1st go if they want a single type in service.

Who has said that they want a single type in service?

The NZDF air transport study hasn't been released yet and AFAIK no leaks, so we actually don't know what they are thinking. Personally I would be thinking that they could be looking at a two tier transport system because the non replacement of the Andovers will have been hurting so to speak. It is true that the Andovers were becoming economically unsustainable, however the utilisation of the Hercs to undertake Andover type taskings will have been expensive, or the taskings were not undertaken. Until the study is released and / or it is covered in the DWP we will just have to wait.

 

[Zero Alpha]

It is true that the Andovers were becoming economically unsustainable, however the utilisation of the Hercs to undertake Andover type taskings will have been expensive, or the taskings were not undertaken. Until the study is released and / or it is covered in the DWP we will just have to wait.

Government and HQNZDF Have discovered the same issue I have running two large station wagons at home - it's damn expensive to run a large asset to the dairy when something smaller will do for some purposes

 

[t68]

Who has said that they want a single type in service?

No one officially and I did say IF,
But with having missed the boat on C17 one would hope that extra A400 will be purchased, whilst I agree a battlefield lifter is of immense value to the RNZAF I have a feeling they have put their credit card away. For I think if C17 went ahead the cheaper option of C130J would have got the nod. Treasury will show that A400 will meet the needs of both Stratigic and tactical lift in the same manner the C-30 has for so many years and will rely on the RAAF making avalible C27J for hub and spoke operations regionally in times of need.

 

[ngatimozart]

No one officially and I did say IF,
But with having missed the boat on C17 one would hope that extra A400 will be purchased, whilst I agree a battlefield lifter is of immense value to the RNZAF I have a feeling they have put their credit card away. For I think if C17 went ahead the cheaper option of C130J would have got the nod. Treasury will show that A400 will meet the needs of both Stratigic and tactical lift in the same manner the C-30 has for so many years and will rely on the RAAF making avalible C27J for hub and spoke operations regionally in times of need.

No, the RAAF will unlikely make the C27J available to NZDF. They didn't with the Caribou. It isn't something that can be taken for granted nor assumed. Whilst Treasury will inevitably make such a, or similar proposal, it is the Cabinet who makes the final decision, not Treasury. The Cabinet have gone against Treasury advice before. Having said that how serious the Cabinet is about defence remains to be seen.

 

[Todjaeger]

No, the RAAF will unlikely make the C27J available to NZDF. They didn't with the Caribou. It isn't something that can be taken for granted nor assumed. Whilst Treasury will inevitably make such a, or similar proposal, it is the Cabinet who makes the final decision, not Treasury. The Cabinet have gone against Treasury advice before. Having said that how serious the Cabinet is about defence remains to be seen.

I doubt that the RAAF could have made the Caribou available to the NZDF, without expending a considerable amount of effort. Enough to make it not worthwhile.

AFAIK the 'empty' range of a DHC-4 Caribou is ~2,000 km, while the distance between Sydney and Auckland is ~2,150 km. Basically it looks like the Caribous would have needed to be disassembled and either shipped or flown to NZ, then re-assembled before they could be utilized. Unless there was a very special need, it just does not seem particularly efficient or effective, especially for just flying an 8,000 lb. payload.

Meanwhile, the C-27J's can be flown without issue between mainland Australia and NZ, while carrying a 6,000kg load. If AAR is used, then there would be potential to lift a near-max, 10,000kg load. Not sure why that would be done if C-130's, C-17's, and/or A-400M's are potentially available, but it is nice to have options...

 

[ngatimozart]

I doubt that the RAAF could have made the Caribou available to the NZDF, without expending a considerable amount of effort. Enough to make it not worthwhile.

AFAIK the 'empty' range of a DHC-4 Caribou is ~2,000 km, while the distance between Sydney and Auckland is ~2,150 km. Basically it looks like the Caribous would have needed to be disassembled and either shipped or flown to NZ, then re-assembled before they could be utilized. Unless there was a very special need, it just does not seem particularly efficient or effective, especially for just flying an 8,000 lb. payload.

They've been across the ditch before and more than once. They would probably come via Norfolk Island. I went for a jolly in one at Woodbourne in 1975 or early 1976. IIRC they were here at the same time as the RAAF 9 Sqn Iroquois who were doing some mountain flying training around the Lake Rotoriti area.

 

[Todjaeger]

They've been across the ditch before and more than once. They would probably come via Norfolk Island. I went for a jolly in one at Woodbourne in 1975 or early 1976. IIRC they were here at the same time as the RAAF 9 Sqn Iroquois who were doing some mountain flying training around the Lake Rotoriti area.

Seems quite a bit of effort for the amount of lift they would provide.

I had not considered a stop at Norfolk Island first, but did check the distance from Tas to South Island, which had been comparable to the distance between Sydney and Auckland.

Norfolk Island is ~1,500 km from Brisbane, and ~1,100 km from Auckland. Do-able, but a major effort. Given the time frame, I wonder if the Caribous could have been brought over by HMAS Melbourne, which was still in service at the time. Given the STOL capabilities of the Caribou, they might have been able to takeoff and land from a CVL if empty.

 

[pea032]

At least one was here just before they retired, I'm sure I was driving faster than it on its approach to Whenuapai.

 

[RegR]

Seems quite a bit of effort for the amount of lift they would provide.

I had not considered a stop at Norfolk Island first, but did check the distance from Tas to South Island, which had been comparable to the distance between Sydney and Auckland.

Norfolk Island is ~1,500 km from Brisbane, and ~1,100 km from Auckland. Do-able, but a major effort. Given the time frame, I wonder if the Caribous could have been brought over by HMAS Melbourne, which was still in service at the time. Given the STOL capabilities of the Caribou, they might have been able to takeoff and land from a CVL if empty.

They came over for the varied flying terrain not nesscessarily to help us out with lift, combining into any support ex whilst here was a bonus. One of the major considerations for them coming over, and therefore not, was their fuel requirements as the Caribous ran on avgas vs the usual avtur and so fuelling such a large (in avgas terms) AC was abit of a logistical nightmare as RNZAF is geared mainly for avtur delivery tanker wise. The last avgas users were the CT4 fleet and before that the siouxs and these were covered by 1300l trailers towed by utes, not really ideal for the quantities required by Caribou.

The C27 won't have this issue therefore could potentially be a more frequent visitor in general and for exs such as Skytrain and Southern Katipo in the future.

 

[RegR]

No, the RAAF will unlikely make the C27J available to NZDF. They didn't with the Caribou. It isn't something that can be taken for granted nor assumed. Whilst Treasury will inevitably make such a, or similar proposal, it is the Cabinet who makes the final decision, not Treasury. The Cabinet have gone against Treasury advice before. Having said that how serious the Cabinet is about defence remains to be seen.

Agreed, we didn't do it then as a rule so I don't see why we would do it now unless we were on combined missions and it benefitted both countries as per. These are not hilux utes we can just borrow off our mates for the week. If we need this capability we will need to aqquire it ourselves as they have their own ops to cover and funding to justify.

I always assumed the andover gap was a known deficiency on top of our C130 fleet not including therefore whilst in the same spectrum had been identified separately and therefore in a way a seperate consideration. It made a re-surgence in defence circles with MEPT and short range maritime patrol proposals as a possible combined effort, killing two (or more) roles with one platform so to speak in an effort to gain efficiencies.

The way I see it the 757/C130 replacements would/should be the touted C17 (missed that boat) and A400 types (C130J-30s at a stretch) and replaced like for like capability/lift/numbers wise and any C27/C295 should be added as extra to fill the andover void and therefore on top of. Same deal for maritime fleet.

ie 2 757 and 5 C130 replaced by 2 737/A320 and 4 A400 or 5 A400(if deemed fit to cover 757 role) and then a separate order for say 4-6 C295 to replace the long lost andovers slot in the transport fleet and not take over say a current C130 position. Kind of separate projects to cover the same goals within the air transport review and in fact would/should mean at least a slight/notable increase in numbers/options over the current fixed wing air transport fleet depending on which option they take.

 

[40 deg south]

What's New [Ministry of Defence NZ]

A few brief updates on the procurement front.

Seasprites

All 10 helicopters have been delivered to New Zealand. All publications, spares support equipment and training packages have been delivered. The flight simulator has been delivered and has commenced operation. The remaining deliverables are the software support facilities which will be delivered at the conclusion of the warranty period.

Sub-hunting

In November 2014, the Ministry of Defence sought responses to an Invitation to Register to become a tenderer for the supply and support of the Underwater Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (UWISR) capability project for the P-3K2 Orion aircraft.

Companies that were approved to receive the Closed Competitive Request for Tender received this documentation in March 2015. Upon completion of tender evaluations, The Boeing Company of the United States of America has been selected as the preferred tenderer.

Subject to the Ministry undertaking a Due Diligence activity and negotiation of a contract package, New Zealand Government approval will be sought to proceed to award a contract.

Comand and Control

In September 2008, the Government approved a project budget of $22.8 million for the purchase and implementation of the US Global Command and Control System to satisfy the DC2S requirement.

The Global Command and Control System is being acquired under a Foreign Military Sales agreement.

The Global Command and Control System - Joint (GCCS-J) is being tailored for implementation onto the NZDF networks in two phases, now overlapping.

Phase One of the DC2S project is a pilot to a small number of users and includes ship trials.
Phase Two is the rollout across the NZDF, with permanent ship fit-outs.
Both phases are due for completion by June 2016.

 

[SpazSinbad]

Seems quite a bit of effort for the amount of lift they would provide.

I had not considered a stop at Norfolk Island first, but did check the distance from Tas to South Island, which had been comparable to the distance between Sydney and Auckland.

Norfolk Island is ~1,500 km from Brisbane, and ~1,100 km from Auckland. Do-able, but a major effort. Given the time frame, I wonder if the Caribous could have been brought over by HMAS Melbourne, which was still in service at the time. Given the STOL capabilities of the Caribou, they might have been able to takeoff and land from a CVL if empty.

The RAN FAA S-2E/G pilots always had my admiration for being on centreline with about 6 feet from starboard wing tip to the port aft 'corner' of the island. This is tight indeed. I cannot see the Caribou being comfortable aboard HMAS Melbourne except being craned ON and OFF at a wharf.

Tracker Wingspan 72.5 feet
Caribou Wingspan 95.5 feet

Angle Deck Length 491 feet

 

[kiwipatriot69]

And of course those P3 Orions will need replacing as well,around the same time? Could this ,the C130, P3, and Boeing 757 be replaced by Airbus as a package deal to save money, could they fill all those roles with a mix of C295 and A400m?

 

[t68]

And of course those P3 Orions will need replacing as well,around the same time? Could this ,the C130, P3, and Boeing 757 be replaced by Airbus as a package deal to save money, could they fill all those roles with a mix of C295 and A400m?

potentially Airbus has the products to meet all future RNZAF needs with a mix of C295 & A400 for stratigic tactical lift and MPA, all depends how well they sharpen their pencil I guess, politicians will look at the $$ and might overlook the capabilty with the MPA

 

[ngatimozart]

potentially Airbus has the products to meet all future RNZAF needs with a mix of C295 & A400 for stratigic tactical lift and MPA, all depends how well they sharpen their pencil I guess, politicians will look at the $$ and might overlook the capabilty with the MPA

The C295MPA doesn't have the range required for NZs long range surveillance and MPA requirements. Remember we have an area of responsibility similar in size to Australias and ours stretches to the Antarctic. Also the C295MPA doesn't carry the ISR capabilities that the NZG require. If Airbus had carried on with the development of the A319MPA that may have been a different story.

 

[t68]

The C295MPA doesn't have the range required for NZs long range surveillance and MPA requirements. Remember we have an area of responsibility similar in size to Australias and ours stretches to the Antarctic. Also the C295MPA doesn't carry the ISR capabilities that the NZG require. If Airbus had carried on with the development of the A319MPA that may have been a different story.

Agree, I should have expanded to C295MPA has less capabilty than the preferred option of P8 Posiden.

 

[Jezza]

Lockheed would love to supply a common platform.
C130J for both roles. Maritime Patrol and Airlift.
Bean counters would love it.

 

[ngatimozart]

Lockheed would love to supply a common platform.
C130J for both roles. Maritime Patrol and Airlift.
Bean counters would love it.

Yes Lockheed would but if their Sea Herc or Herc based MPA is so good why hasn't anyone acquired yet? They have been touting this long enough and there have been MPA acquisitions whilst they have been pushing it, yet they haven't won one. Even the bean counters would have to realise that the C130J does not meet all the requirements and that another platform would have to be acquired. Secondly, any C130J based MPA is at the moment a paper based design and govt policy is for mature proven platforms already in service elsewhere.

 

[swerve]

..., any C130J based MPA is at the moment a paper based design ....

Not completely true. The USCG flies C-130J SAR aircraft, in effect limited-role MPAs. Surface search only (no ASW) & unarmed, so would need development, but they have good sensors for the role, including the excellent Selex Seaspray 7500E radar.

 

[Zero Alpha]

Secondly, any C130J based MPA is at the moment a paper based design and govt policy is for mature proven platforms already in service elsewhere.

I don't know why you keep flogging this horse. The -130 has a well established pedigree in a very wide variety of roles - much more so than the 737 derivatives. As well as variants with very advanced ESM, AEW and surface search radars, there are multiple variants with a combat proven track record delivery precisions munitions against surface targets. The only aspect that isn't combat proven is the ASW fit - just like the P-8.