Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

alexkvaskov

alexkvaskov

New Member
The Bumerang seems massive - it looks at least the same height as the T-72 behind it and the MBT is closer to the camera in that shot at 6:21. Thoughts?
 
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bdique

Member
Feanor said:
The Bumerang caught on video, during parade practice. Note, it's at the very very end of the video. From the looks of it, it's carrying the Epoha combat module just like the Kurganets. And of course there's an impressive quantity of WWII armor in the formation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nz_zY0rXyg

More screens here.

bmpd - "Бумеранги" на репетиции Парада Победы
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Feanor, thanks for the link! Can I say that the Bumerang will be a replacement for the BTR series? Also, are the Kurganets replacements for the BMP series? Tried to search for answers online myself, but nothing :confused:
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
bdique said:
Feanor, thanks for the link! Can I say that the Bumerang will be a replacement for the BTR series? Also, are the Kurganets replacements for the BMP series? Tried to search for answers online myself, but nothing :confused:
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It's more complicated then that. The APC/IFV distinction is basically gone. They're medium platforms with wheels, and tracks. And there are variants of both that have the Epoha module with the 30mm autocannon, and variants that have only a machinegun. For the Armata there seems to only be a heavy IFV, so only one with the autocannon. Hopefully instead of doing a one for one replacement, they will tailor the brigades TO to match. They also need to hurry up with the other special vehicles on those platforms, so they can get rid of some of those older chassis still in service.

alexkvaskov said:
The Bumerang seems massive - it looks at least the same height as the T-72 behind it and the MBT is closer to the camera in that shot at 6:21. Thoughts?
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I'll wait for the official presentation. It's unclear whether this is a batch of prototypes, or LRIP, or what. They haven't begun state trials or experimental exploitation, and I'm not sure how exactly they're going to go about re-equipping units with them.
 
alexkvaskov

alexkvaskov

New Member
Feanor said:
I'll wait for the official presentation. It's unclear whether this is a batch of prototypes, or LRIP, or what. They haven't begun state trials or experimental exploitation, and I'm not sure how exactly they're going to go about re-equipping units with them.
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Are they more likely to operate Armatas and T-72s side by side or wait for larger batches of Armatas to entirely rearm line units?
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
alexkvaskov said:
Are they more likely to operate Armatas and T-72s side by side or wait for larger batches of Armatas to entirely rearm line units?
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If past history is any indication, it'll be btln sets. So for Motor-Rifle Bdes they will get one btln and be done, but for tank Bdes and the two divisions it'll be much slower, so yes they will be side by side for some time. Not sure how they will do it. They will probably re-equip a couple of units around Moscow for experimental exploitation, and after that they will re-equip the units in danger areas first. I suspect Motor-Rifle Bdes that are considered elite will be the first to get them.
 
B

bdique

Member
Feanor said:
It's more complicated then that. The APC/IFV distinction is basically gone. They're medium platforms with wheels, and tracks. And there are variants of both that have the Epoha module with the 30mm autocannon, and variants that have only a machinegun. For the Armata there seems to only be a heavy IFV, so only one with the autocannon. Hopefully instead of doing a one for one replacement, they will tailor the brigades TO to match. They also need to hurry up with the other special vehicles on those platforms, so they can get rid of some of those older chassis still in service.
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Feanor thanks so much, please help me to understand more. So that means that with the introduction of these new classes of medium/heavy platforms, will there be new motorised/mechanised brigades with new mission sets being raised with the new vehicles, or will existing brigades receive these new vehicles to support the existing armoured vehicles to better carry out their existing missions?

Or...would it be a mix of both?
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
bdique said:
Feanor thanks so much, please help me to understand more. So that means that with the introduction of these new classes of medium/heavy platforms, will there be new motorised/mechanised brigades with new mission sets being raised with the new vehicles, or will existing brigades receive these new vehicles to support the existing armoured vehicles to better carry out their existing missions?

Or...would it be a mix of both?
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They will probably re-arm existing brigades, and create some new ones, but the mission set won't change a whole lot. The whole point of the brigades is that they were adapted to the new mission set, and merely made-do with available gear while they waited for the new universal platforms.
 
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bdique

Member
Feanor said:
They will probably re-arm existing brigades, and create some new ones, but the mission set won't change a whole lot. The whole point of the brigades is that they were adapted to the new mission set, and merely made-do with available gear while they waited for the new universal platforms.
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Hmm, so the reality is complicated after all, I guess what's left to see is how well these vehicles perform operationally.
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
bdique said:
Hmm, so the reality is complicated after all, I guess what's left to see is how well these vehicles perform operationally.
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Well look the unified concept was good, but we haven't seen Kurganets-based replacements for ATGM carriers, SAMs (Tor, Strela, Tunguska are all brigade assets), SP mortars, or engineer vehicles. We've seen pictures of gun systems (MBT replacement), SP Arty, C4I vehicles, recon vehicles, comm vehicles, EW vehicles. They only thing we've seen in metal so far are the troop carriers, two variants. You're asking me to speculate a lot, and that's what I'm doing. The reality may turn out a lot simpler. Or a total cluster****.
 
B

bdique

Member
Feanor said:
Well look the unified concept was good, but we haven't seen Kurganets-based replacements for ATGM carriers, SAMs (Tor, Strela, Tunguska are all brigade assets), SP mortars, or engineer vehicles. We've seen pictures of gun systems (MBT replacement), SP Arty, C4I vehicles, recon vehicles, comm vehicles, EW vehicles. They only thing we've seen in metal so far are the troop carriers, two variants. You're asking me to speculate a lot, and that's what I'm doing. The reality may turn out a lot simpler. Or a total cluster****.
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That's true, there's really no other variants out there so far...and yes sorry I just wanted to get your opinion...even if it is speculation, it is probably closer to the truth than if I tried to find out on my own.

Guess we will have to wait and see. I do hope, for the sake of the crews operating them in future, that the vehicles will be developed into something that's reliable and capable. Wait and see...
 
alexkvaskov

alexkvaskov

New Member
Feanor said:
They will probably re-arm existing brigades, and create some new ones, but the mission set won't change a whole lot. The whole point of the brigades is that they were adapted to the new mission set, and merely made-do with available gear while they waited for the new universal platforms.
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But they're rolling brigades back into pseudo divisions?..
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
alexkvaskov said:
But they're rolling brigades back into pseudo divisions?..
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Not really. They've restored 3 units to division status, namely the 2nd Motor-Rifles, 4th Tank, and 201st MilBase. And the Kantemirskaya and Tamanskaya are cadre divisions at that, with one regiment each at 100% manning levels, and the rest at various reduced levels (though this may change and soon, as there are more and more contract personnel). The 201st MilBase appears to be a 100% staffed Motor-Rifle division, but it's unclear whether the T.O. is the same as the old Soviet one or something different.

They've also formed quite a few new brigades, including recon, para-assault, and arctic, not to mention motor-rifle and potentially a new tank.

Meanwhile the defense budget took a small cut, but the social spending in it was not affected. Some procurement was moved to a later date. Though to be honest the cut is tiny, and it's not a net cut. It's merely a cut from the planned increase. It's still net growth for the defense budget, just slower the originally planned.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1254675.html
 
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bdique

Member
alexkvaskov said:
Fresh Armata photos.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - "Ðрмата" вблизи

Note the side by side seating layout behind the glacis. I assume those are the driver and gunner positions. Much flatter angle on the upper glacis, however I can't tell if there's ERA on the glacis. Very thick side skirts.
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Nice pics, good to see the Armata up close, thanks!

Probably driver and commander. There is no real need for the gunner to have periscope windows. There are backup day elbow sighting systems if all else fails, perhaps that is the middle periscope window?
 
alexkvaskov

alexkvaskov

New Member
bdique said:
Nice pics, good to see the Armata up close, thanks!

Probably driver and commander. There is no real need for the gunner to have periscope windows. There are backup day elbow sighting systems if all else fails, perhaps that is the middle periscope window?
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Where do you think the gunner sits? Between them?
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Another batch of Armata photos.

bmpd - Ðовые Ñнимки "Ðрматы"

And the MoD is considering the Berezhok module for domestic use. Not the brightest choice, imo. I think it would've been smarter to upgrade them with something like the BTR-88 module, or even the Epoha if it's ready.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Минобороны заинтереÑовалоÑÑŒ "Бережком"

Also the MoD is continuing purchases of the Tayfun-K (Kamaz) but so far not the Ural version. They're the modular variant, with the single-body variant still under consideration. 30 Tayfun-K for the SpetzNaz in MD South.

Gur Khan attacks!: Спецназ ЮВО получил партию бронеавтомобилей «Ð¢Ð°Ð¹Ñ„ун»

Also Msta-S upgrades are continuing. 36 2S19M1 and 24 2S19M2. The M2 is interesting because it uses the same FCS and electronics as the Coalition-SV, and a new gun and loading mechanism. According to CAST, the M2 variant are newly built, not upgraded.

Interestingly enough they're also upgrading the 2S3 Akatsiya, 18 of them a year. They likely get the same new comms and FCS as the M1 Msta-S variant.

And finally the Epoha module is likely being called the Bumerang-BM at least in internal documents.

bmpd - ПроизводÑтво и ÐÐ´ÐµÑ€Ð½Ð¸Ð·Ð°Ñ†Ð¸Ñ 152-мм Ñамоходных орудий на "УралтранÑмаше"
 
Feanor

Feanor

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