Royal New Zealand Air Force

[t68]

Aren't both Germany and Spain looking to resell 13 each of their planned orders?
Wouldn't this provide a route to procurement of A400Ms without going to the back of the line?

That also depends on if Airbus will support them, nothing said officially but it could turn out like the C27J problems with the US and Alenia and the US selling off surplus aircraft and Aleina stating they will not support them as they see them as competitive aircraft, not 100% certain but I think those countries are bound by contract to buy them anyway

 

[Todjaeger]

No it's not and I never said it was. I just stated it as a possibility That's all. No in my post I suggested other weapons as armament with the possibility of either Hellfire or Brimstone albeit expensive possibilities. But the idea of a 109NK with 25mm cannon and 70mm rocket capability on an OPV doing anti piracy patrols is not silly, plus the ability to provide armed overwatch and CAS for the Army.

An armed helicopter operating from the OPV's is problematic. Per the design sketches, there is no magazine in the helicopter hangar. This means either all munitions for the helicopter need to be stored in the ship's magazine which IIRC is beneath the 25 mm gun foreward, and the munition carried from there within the ship every time the helicopter is to be armed, or have munitions stored in the hangar, but not in a magazine...

Honestly everytime I think of it, I have to wonder whether the gov't that ordered the Protector fleet were a bunch of skinflints, fools, or deliberately trying to render the NZDF impotent as a combat force.

Incidentally, arming the P-3's would not be an easy and quick task, unless something like Block I Harpoons were acquired. When they were last re-winged, the wiring for Block II Harpoons and other munitions was not put in. To install it, the P-3's would need to be re-winged, again.

 

[RegR]

That also depends on if Airbus will support them, nothing said officially but it could turn out like the C27J problems with the US and Alenia and the US selling off surplus aircraft and Aleina stating they will not support them as they see them as competitive aircraft, not 100% certain but I think those countries are bound by contract to buy them anyway

Would it be in their interest not to though? Apart from Malaysia we could be their only non-euro customer and lets be honest they need all the exposure they can get regardless of where we actually get the type from especially if they are getting paid for anyway. Airbus has alot of damage control to do as is, no point alienating more countries just to prove a point.

Could be some deals to be made either with Airbus or countries direct depending on how keen they are to keep moving forward and cut losses.

 

[t68]

Would it be in their interest not to though? Apart from Malaysia we could be their only non-euro customer and lets be honest they need all the exposure they can get regardless of where we actually get the type from especially if they are getting paid for anyway. Airbus has alot of damage control to do as is, no point alienating more countries just to prove a point.

Could be some deals to be made either with Airbus or countries direct depending on how keen they are to keep moving forward and cut losses.

All depends on how Airbus look at it. If the Euro countries are committed to buy the aircraft and if NZ wants A400 it's an extra X amount of aircraft to be built. Spin doctors will have a ball with either way.

 

[ngatimozart]

An armed helicopter operating from the OPV's is problematic. Per the design sketches, there is no magazine in the helicopter hangar. This means either all munitions for the helicopter need to be stored in the ship's magazine which IIRC is beneath the 25 mm gun foreward, and the munition carried from there within the ship every time the helicopter is to be armed, or have munitions stored in the hangar, but not in a magazine...

Yes, that's the problem with the Protector OPVs. I also think that that they would be marginal against, Somali for example, pirates armed with AKs and RPGs. I think these would be better matched on newer OPVs, something like Regs BAMS. Having said that, there is no reason why they can't operate from the Protector OPVs, they just wouldn't be able to utilise their full capabilities.

Honestly everytime I think of it, I have to wonder whether the gov't that ordered the Protector fleet were a bunch of skinflints, fools, or deliberately trying to render the NZDF impotent as a combat force.

My thoughts are that skinflints, fools and deliberately trying to render NZDF impotent as a combat force is a very accurate description. Well said Sir.

Incidentally, arming the P-3's would not be an easy and quick task, unless something like Block I Harpoons were acquired. When they were last re-winged, the wiring for Block II Harpoons and other munitions was not put in. To install it, the P-3's would need to be re-winged, again.

Yes that is the problem and I think that the rewiring wasn't done because of cost. I can't remember when the rewinging was done so don't know which bunch of pollies was the skinflints and fools. Now I don't know if the investment would be worthwhile.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Agree with you that a medium intensity scenario would best be dealt with by starting with P-3's and Frigates. However if we discount or leave aside for the time being integration of Penguin to A109. Would you agree the money and effort purposed to the arming in some form of the A109 would be useful in a given number of likely scenarios beyond that of pintle GPMG? And as feasibility allows work from there?

I just can't see anyone making the effort to rail up a penguin and recertify an already limited platform

not too many margins to play with

a dillon or equiv is a diff ballgame - no bus issues, no fire control issues, basically weapon is added weight whereas any missile is missile, plus cabling, plus WCS/FCS

 

[Zero Alpha]

An armed helicopter operating from the OPV's is problematic. Per the design sketches, there is no magazine in the helicopter hangar. This means either all munitions for the helicopter need to be stored in the ship's magazine which IIRC is beneath the 25 mm gun foreward, and the munition carried from there within the ship every time the helicopter is to be armed, or have munitions stored in the hangar, but not in a magazine...

Honestly everytime I think of it, I have to wonder whether the gov't that ordered the Protector fleet were a bunch of skinflints, fools, or deliberately trying to render the NZDF impotent as a combat force.

Incidentally, arming the P-3's would not be an easy and quick task, unless something like Block I Harpoons were acquired. When they were last re-winged, the wiring for Block II Harpoons and other munitions was not put in. To install it, the P-3's would need to be re-winged, again.

The OPVs are part of the "Naval Patrol Force." They're not part of the Naval Combat Force. They are providing a different output, not reducing the combat force.

I wonder if the NSM could be carried internally? Easier to wire a bus inside the bay than in the wing.

 

[Zero Alpha]

I just can't see anyone making the effort to rail up a penguin and recertify an already limited platform

not too many margins to play with

Penguin is close to 400kg, or around 8 times the weight of Hellfire.

I'm not sure people realise just how limited the -109 is. It really isn't much more capable than a B2 Squirrel. Fine for liaison and very light tasks, but there isn't the payload available to be carrying offensive loads at a useful range.

 

[ngatimozart]

Penguin is close to 400kg, or around 8 times the weight of Hellfire.

I'm not sure people realise just how limited the -109 is. It really isn't much more capable than a B2 Squirrel. Fine for liaison and very light tasks, but there isn't the payload available to be carrying offensive loads at a useful range.

That's one of the reasons why we chuck these up and thrash them around a bit, so that the chaff is separated from the grain. I knew the weight of the Penguin and wasn't sure about the viability of the idea, so that's why it was suggested as an investigation. Being a small very financially constrained defence force, NZ does have to think outside the square on occasion. Of course the major problems NZDF does face are lack of political will and public apathy towards defence.

 

[Todjaeger]

The OPVs are part of the "Naval Patrol Force." They're not part of the Naval Combat Force. They are providing a different output, not reducing the combat force.

I wonder if the NSM could be carried internally? Easier to wire a bus inside the bay than in the wing.

Not to get off topic onto the RNZN, but IMO a properly kitted out OPV should be sufficient to handle anti-piracy patrols off East Africa. Their potential opposition would be armed with small arms and RPG's. One of the issues with the Protector-class OPV's is the limited fire arcs, along with inability to have helicopters easily armed with anything heavier than a GPMG. While I do not know for certain, I strongly suspect the OPV's have little or no datalink ability, which means the SA that an aircraft could provide would be largely lost.

On a related note, while armed, navalized AW109's I doubt would be cost-effective or viable, I do feel that the NZDF should consider getting several navalized AW109's kitted out with E/O turret camera, sea search radars, and a winching capability. This should allow them to help in providing eyes aloft when patrolling, and/or a significant SAR capability.

With there being 10 Seasprites, then means it would be reasonable to expect three available at any one time. Depending on what is going on with the FFH's, one of those Seasprites might not be anywhere near NZ. One Seasprite might be aboard an OPV, and the third might be able to operate from a land base, but having even more aircraft available for some of the close in, or land searches, would be worthwhile IMO.

As for NSM able to be launched from within the bomb bay, I would imagine the missile would fit. However, I suspect a fair about of time and tin would need to be expended to develop, test, and get clearance/certification for this to be viable. Unless Norway is also (or already) looking at doing this, I do not see it being worthwhile for NZ. Such a bespoke development would likely be fairly expensive to get all the way to a deployable capability and I suspect it would take several years. By the time it was actually ready, the P-3K's might be just about ready to be retired.

It might be better to investigate whether or not something like JSOW could be integrated onto the Kiwi Orions.

 

[Zero Alpha]

Not to get off topic onto the RNZN, but IMO a properly kitted out OPV should be sufficient to handle anti-piracy patrols off East Africa. Their potential opposition would be armed with small arms and RPG's.

The risk NZ would run if we tried to do that is it would probably be the end of the frigates for Navy. It may well be deliberate keeping the OPVs at a lower-end of the spectrum. Having said that, the replacement should be larger. The flight deck on Protector is marginal at best, and something being able to take a NH90 would mean far less compromise in naval aviation (and with a corresponding increase in ability to support other tasks).

One of the issues with the Protector-class OPV's is the limited fire arcs,

It's positively magnificent compared to Canterbury

While I do not know for certain, I strongly suspect the OPV's have little or no datalink ability, which means the SA that an aircraft could provide would be largely lost.

I was under the impression it was part of the remediation program, perhaps in receive-only mode? There was a whole-of-govt satellite AIS contract put out for tender maybe 16 months ago. From memory part of that brief was for OPVs being a recipient of the information, via NMCC.

I do feel that the NZDF should consider getting several navalized AW109's kitted out with E/O turret camera, sea search radars, and a winching capability. This should allow them to help in providing eyes aloft when patrolling, and/or a significant SAR capability.

AN E/O camera should be achievable. Not sure about the radar though. It would be technically possible, but it would mean more weight. Just a decent FLIR would be adequate for SAR. The '109s have a winch fitted at the moment. It's a crap winch. Less user friendly IMHO than the Seasprite or Huey kit, and light years behind the '109.

With there being 10 Seasprites, then means it would be reasonable to expect three available at any one time. Depending on what is going on with the FFG's, one of those Seasprites might not be anywhere near NZ. One Seasprite might be aboard an OPV, and the third might be able to operate from a land base, but having even more aircraft available for some of the close in, or land searches, would be worthwhile IMO.

Bang for buck I think upgrading a couple of NH90s and using them on the larger Navy platforms for utility roles would be more useful than '109s, but it would really come down to how the final numbers looked.

 

[Todjaeger]

The risk NZ would run if we tried to do that is it would probably be the end of the frigates for Navy. It may well be deliberate keeping the OPVs at a lower-end of the spectrum. Having said that, the replacement should be larger. The flight deck on Protector is marginal at best, and something being able to take a NH90 would mean far less compromise in naval aviation (and with a corresponding increase in ability to support other tasks).

If people in NZ truly see OPV's armed with a 25 mm gun fore and aft, and able to support an armed naval helicopter as an appropriate replacement for a frigate, I have to assume they either (a) smoke funny cigarettes, (b) regularly consume enchanted fungus, (c) have very thick eyewear, tinted a specific shade of red, (d) regularly take various pills with psychotropic properties, or lastly (e) have completely forgotten or are otherwise ignorant that they live on an island-nation dependent on maritime trade, and that their nation's trade lanes pass through a number of areas with active claims disputes, and other areas which have seen active combat in living memory.

I have a comment which will appear below about NH90 ops.

It's positively magnificent compared to Canterbury

For this, I refer back to my comment a posts ago about skinflints, fools, or deliberately trying to render the NZDF impotent as a combat force. One needs to remember that HMNZS Canterbury is (or was supposed to be...) a multi-role vessel (MRV). Amongst the intended roles was a patrol capability, ignoring the issue of different characteristics making vessels good at sealift vs. good at patrolling...

I was under the impression it was part of the remediation program, perhaps in receive-only mode? There was a whole-of-govt satellite AIS contract put out for tender maybe 16 months ago. From memory part of that brief was for OPVs being a recipient of the information, via NMCC.

While SATCOM might be nice to have aboard an OPV, particularly when far from other assets, I had more in mind a Link 11 or perhaps Link 16 capability. Something where a contact detected by another NZDF asset (P-3K, SH-2G(I), AW109, etc.) gets automatically relayed via datalink in place of the contact location and any details needing to be radioed over.

AN E/O camera should be achievable. Not sure about the radar though. It would be technically possible, but it would mean more weight. Just a decent FLIR would be adequate for SAR. The '109s have a winch fitted at the moment. It's a crap winch. Less user friendly IMHO than the Seasprite or Huey kit, and light years behind the '109.

Honestly, just an E/O camera might not be worth the expense for maritime search and resume. A sea search radar can scan a much larger area than an E/O camera can, in a given span of time. The E/O system is good for getting imagery and details, once the approximate location of a downed aircraft, disabled or illegal vessel has been determined.

Bang for buck I think upgrading a couple of NH90s and using them on the larger Navy platforms for utility roles would be more useful than '109s, but it would really come down to how the final numbers looked.

I do think upgrading all the NH-90's so that they can safely operate from HMNZS Canterbury in a wider range of sea states would be wise. Also if the Endeavour replacement does go through, and includes either a helipad, or helipad and hangar large enough for an NH90, then such an ability would make sense. There is little point in adapting the NH90's though, if the plan is to operate them from the ANZAC-class frigates though. The hangars are realistically too small to support NH90's. If memory serves, when different contenders for the urgent replacement of the RAN's S-70B-2 Seahawks were being considered, the NFH90 was looked at, and it was determined that they would fit aboard the RAN FFH's, it would a tight fit. "Just enough room for a bee's d*ck," someone stated.

 

[ngatimozart]

The risk NZ would run if we tried to do that is it would probably be the end of the frigates for Navy. It may well be deliberate keeping the OPVs at a lower-end of the spectrum. Having said that, the replacement should be larger. The flight deck on Protector is marginal at best, and something being able to take a NH90 would mean far less compromise in naval aviation (and with a corresponding increase in ability to support other tasks).

Yes there is always that very real concern and NZDF will be very aware of it. However OPVs per se cannot fill a frigates roll no matter how you try to spin it. The Protector flight decks were designed and built for Seasprites so anything larger won't fit. Yes a Seasprite does look rather large on them.

It's positively magnificent compared to Canterbury

I was under the impression it was part of the remediation program, perhaps in receive-only mode? There was a whole-of-govt satellite AIS contract put out for tender maybe 16 months ago. From memory part of that brief was for OPVs being a recipient of the information, via NMCC.

Different system. I think the data transfer system would be along the lines of the TDL Link 11 which is either HF or UHF. AIS is just an Automatic Identification System for shipping and actually requires the vessel to turn it on to be of any use.

AN E/O camera should be achievable. Not sure about the radar though. It would be technically possible, but it would mean more weight. Just a decent FLIR would be adequate for SAR. The '109s have a winch fitted at the moment. It's a crap winch. Less user friendly IMHO than the Seasprite or Huey kit, and light years behind the '109.

Augusta Westland did advertise the 109NK as being fitted with a radar so they did come with them. The NH90 winch is the really good one. If you're going to use the aircraft as a set of eyes and ears for any ship it has to have a radar and radars these days are relatively light. The USCG used a couple of 109s for finding and stopping druggies at sea. A I/O turret. Also would be good. However it's a money thing at the end of the day and would the NZG be willing to pay for such capability?

Bang for buck I think upgrading a couple of NH90s and using them on the larger Navy platforms for utility roles would be more useful than '109s, but it would really come down to how the final numbers looked.

I agree three NH90s fitted out for sea service in a utility role would be good. However I wonder if fully marinised NH90s would be a better option in the long run. I'm thinking of shipboard handling, sea state limitations and corrosion issues. Yes it's all about money and political ideology.

Right back to the cricket.

 

[Zero Alpha]

The Protector flight decks were designed and built for Seasprites so anything larger won't fit. Yes a Seasprite does look rather large on them.
Different system. I think the data transfer system would be along the lines of the TDL Link 11 which is either HF or UHF. AIS is just an Automatic Identification System for shipping and actually requires the vessel to turn it on to be of any use.

They were built shorter than designed. A BAE whoopsie.

What I meant is that the common operating picture is being downloaded to the OPV. The common operating picture from NMCC includes satellite and terrestrial AIS data.

 

[ngatimozart]

They were built shorter than designed. A BAE whoopsie.

What I meant is that the common operating picture is being downloaded to the OPV. The common operating picture from NMCC includes satellite and terrestrial AIS data.

OK, I thought you were meaning the data link between the helo and the ship. Whilst the satellite data is good, it can be dated and of course AIS is only of use if it's turned on. The data between helos and ship is in real time so is tactically advantageous. As far as I am aware the OPVs don't have that capability at the moment.

 

[Cadredave]

If people in NZ truly see OPV's armed with a 25 mm gun fore and aft, and able to support an armed naval helicopter as an appropriate replacement for a frigate, I have to assume they either (a) smoke funny cigarettes, (b) regularly consume enchanted fungus, (c) have very thick eyewear, tinted a specific shade of red, (d) regularly take various pills with psychotropic properties, or lastly (e) have completely forgotten or are otherwise ignorant that they live on an island-nation dependent on maritime trade, and that their nation's trade lanes pass through a number of areas with active claims disputes, and other areas which have seen active combat in living memory.

Welcome to NZ politics Tod this is exactly the reason NZDF/RNZN had to separate the Naval Combat Force from the Naval Patrol Force we still have a major political party on the left who what nothing more than a Coast Guard (Greens) you have a vocal minority in the Labour party who want nothing to do with 5 eyes or ABCA things are changing the younger generation ie post baby boomers are more pro defence.

In their eyes we have the biggest moat in the world and no one can touch us Ngati called it right Sea blindness. It was a choice NZDF had to make to save the Frigates remember we just lost the ACF and they were looking for any excuse to scrap the Frigates and tanks etc. Fortunately well not fortunately 9/11 came and IMO saved the NZDF from becoming a home guard/coast guard or air delivery force.

CD

 

[Todjaeger]

OK, I thought you were meaning the data link between the helo and the ship. Whilst the satellite data is good, it can be dated and of course AIS is only of use if it's turned on. The data between helos and ship is in real time so is tactically advantageous. As far as I am aware the OPVs don't have that capability at the moment.

Indeed. IMO there really does need to be that link between ship and embarked heli. The sat data would not include any contacts from the heli, unless the heli gets kitted out with SATCOM and the ability to upload contacts. IMO this will be something the P-3K might be kitted for, and likely the P-8's if they are actually selected. I do not see naval helicopters being given the ability, rather any upload would come from a ship the heli operates from or with.

The other potential issue impacting the common operating picture is that if the OPV's just have a receive capability, then other elements will not be aware of contacts that the OPV's and/or embarked heli are aware.

Welcome to NZ politics Tod this is exactly the reason NZDF/RNZN had to separate the Naval Combat Force from the Naval Patrol Force we still have a major political party on the left who what nothing more than a Coast Guard (Greens) you have a vocal minority in the Labour party who want nothing to do with 5 eyes or ABCA things are changing the younger generation ie post baby boomers are more pro defence.

In their eyes we have the biggest moat in the world and no one can touch us Ngati called it right Sea blindness. It was a choice NZDF had to make to save the Frigates remember we just lost the ACF and they were looking for any excuse to scrap the Frigates and tanks etc. Fortunately well not fortunately 9/11 came and IMO saved the NZDF from becoming a home guard/coast guard or air delivery force.

CD

I know this is preaching to the choir, but people in NZ really need to understand that what they call a moat, can also become a highway (it is already a seaway...) right up to NZ's shores.

Never mind the fact that history has shown that events far from NZ can have a negative impact on the lives of ordinary Kiwis.

 

[Cadredave]

Indeed. IMO there really does need to be that link between ship and embarked heli. The sat data would not include any contacts from the heli, unless the heli gets kitted out with SATCOM and the ability to upload contacts. IMO this will be something the P-3K might be kitted for, and likely the P-8's if they are actually selected. I do not see naval helicopters being given the ability, rather any upload would come from a ship the heli operates from or with.

The other potential issue impacting the common operating picture is that if the OPV's just have a receive capability, then other elements will not be aware of contacts that the OPV's and/or embarked heli are aware.



I know this is preaching to the choir, but people in NZ really need to understand that what they call a moat, can also become a highway (it is already a seaway...) right up to NZ's shores.

Never mind the fact that history has shown that events far from NZ can have a negative impact on the lives of ordinary Kiwis.

We know mate trying to educate those who dont care where their goods come from as long as they get them is hard but little steps. To be honest that period late 90's to early 2000 was the worse period to serve in regardless we were in Timor, the wake up call for NZDF was the scrapping of the ACF senior officer's in the other two services realized to late if they can do that to the ACF then any other capability could be gone in the blink of an eye its history now dont want to side track the thread so back to the robust discussion on C-17/A400 or C-27J/C-295.

CD

 

[John Fedup]

I know this is preaching to the choir, but people in NZ really need to understand that what they call a moat, can also become a highway (it is already a seaway...) right up to NZ's shores.

Never mind the fact that history has shown that events far from NZ can have a negative impact on the lives of ordinary Kiwis.

People in Canada have to understand our Arctic ice is no longer an effective moat. It seems bovine feces is served in both countries when it comes to defence matters.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

The OPVs are part of the "Naval Patrol Force." They're not part of the Naval Combat Force. They are providing a different output, not reducing the combat force.

I wonder if the NSM could be carried internally? Easier to wire a bus inside the bay than in the wing.

AFAIK the NSM is not an air launched weapon. Only been developed to be shot out of a can from a surface platform.
When, and if the JSM ever becomes operational, as it has specifically been designed to be deployed from the weapons bay of a F-35, I would think being deployed from the bay of another aircraft would be doable.