Ukranian Crisis

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TankovayaVoyska

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I for one dont see how a russia that is sanctioned heavily, and treated as a enemy is at all a "added bonus" literately nothing good can come from that.
Nothing good can come from that only applies to people who have no wish to go to war. Unfortunately, there exists some individuals in this world that seem intent on making a war the scenario. This goes equally for both sides of this conflict.
 

TankovayaVoyska

New Member
Given that most of the nationals on board were Dutch and that the incident happened in Europe; I think letting Holland take the lead was the best option, irrespective of the fact that MH17 was a Malaysian owned aircraft. To me at least, with Holland taking the lead, there is a much better chance of EU diplomatic support and the advantages that probably go with it.

Malaysia is indeed neutral in the conflict and it was for this very reason that the rebels agreed to handover the black box to Malaysia. Aleksandr Borodai made it clear that the black box would only be handed over to Malaysian government officials.

Just last night I was speaking to a senior MAS pilot. He knew most of the crew on board MH370 and M17; and had flown both aircraft on numerous occasions on the same routes.
As I said, I concede that an EU member leading the investigation does have its perks. They have the expertise, experience and equipment to carry this sort of investigation out, but that is also a point against the EU in my opinion. Sorry for insinuating dishonesty on the Dutch here (I have nothing against the Dutch), but what guaranty can the people of my country get from the Dutch / EU / Western block that they will carry out this investigation neutrally? There is obviously an interest in the West to make sure that the evidence points to Russia.That goes equally if the Russians were taking charge of the investigation. As far as I and the rest of Malaysia are concerned, the possibility of any falsification can exist for both sides.

Glad Borodai came straight with the black box though. Hopefully that will help us get down to the business of things. Though I suspect how we go public with the information in there will considerably change our relations with the major powers of the world. It will certainly hurt our neutrality. Local news and media pundits have already ignorantly toed the American MSM line that Russia is responsible. For a supposedly neutral country, we were quick to buy the "Russia did it" crap and our ignorance on issues other than in our country is certainly not helping. ( a lot of people bought the Igor Strelkov confession almost immediately)

I am unsure of how the US sees Malaysia as a geostrategic partner, but I'm willing to wager that our cooperation in SEA will probably be helpful in the "contain China" doctrine. Yet, if it turns out that the US-backed Kiev government was responsible for the MH17 disaster, I'm not certain how our government will react. The population will go insane definitely; a lot of the Malays already hate the US enough over Gaza as it is, and will certainly go on a (futile) effort to boycott the US. The ruling coalition however needs to choose a little more wisely. America keeps a lot of Malaysians employed, and banning American companies from Malaysia will not do the coalition any more good. They're in enough trouble over the election fraud claims as it is.

This is as opposed to the possible "DPR/Russia is responsible" possibility; we don't have a trade obligation with Russia to care for if we cut ties with them. The only major deal we've had with them IIRC is the Su-30MKM and astronaut thing, and that's not really hard money compared to trade with China and the US. We also have students in Russia's many medical academies, but they aren't a big enough concern. I find this disconcerting though; cutting off relations with Russia would smack of pro-West sentiment and would be contrary to our neutrality stance.

In retrospect, this Ukrainian issue has more implications for us Malaysians than we'd care to think. Part of the problem with my country is ignorance; nobody really cares about issues that are not an immediate problem, which is true for the general populace of most countries. And the other part of the problem is we lack the ability to actively enforce our neutrality. Our foreign policy is a bit passive in my opinion, and our lacking defense organization is certainly not helping. The mere fact that we are not really taking a more active role in the investigation sort of shows that.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member

stojo

Member
Dodik said that the entity he leads was "facing an absurd situation in which it is being accused by many for separating RS [from Bosnia], while we are saying that we will not allow separatism in countries such as Serbia".
He insisted that "Kosovo has been taken from Serbia" violently in a breach of international law that humiliated all Serbs.
The second sentence of the posted text goes:
"But he said that RS took its lead from Belgrade and would not allow Bosnia to recognise Kosovo."

Which is exactly what I said. RS is preventing Bosnia to recognize Kosovo, because RS was instructed to do so by Serbia, so trough RS - Serbia has leverage over the foreign policy of her formally sovereign neighbor.

Maybe I should have been clearer, as I think we are agree... The RS is refusing to allow BiH to recognise Kosovo as independent, as it will force the BiH to recognise RS independence. Which is what I wrote
It is actually quite opposite. RS would love if BiH would be forced to recognize RS independence. Actually, gaining independence for RS is Dodik's core policy. He was even threatening with Krimean style referendum lately, and he is constantly blocking all the federal institutions, by the power of indiscriminant veto, while, in the same time complaining that Bosnia is failed state, and that the Serbs would be far better of without it.

The very fact that he went against the Kosovo independence, although supporting the precedent of Kosovo independence would be theoretically beneficial for him, and that he publicly stated that he is doing so following Serbian que shoes just how much influence Serbia still has over RS.

When it comes to South Ossetia, or Abhazia, he was not that cheap, he publicly stated that RS is in favor of their indepedence. Look, I don't blame you for getting things upside down, Balkans is a total mess, quite complicated politically, and generally not so interesting any more to outsiders.

What I was saying is that Russia would love to have some sort of Ukrainian Republika Srpska, which she could use to influence Ukrainian policies on federal level, same way Serbia does, for instance, when it comes to Kosovo, and other issues in Bosnia. And that would be even more beneficial to Russians, than to simply secede the eastern parts, and leave the rest of Ukr on its own.

Kerry was, actually directly asked after his meeting with Lavrov whether Russians proposed the Bosnian style federation in Ukraine and he did not deny the fact that Russians mentioned something like that (although he did not confirmed it either).

If you consider that a large number of units fighting alongside the militias are in fact SV guys from Russia, I think it's safe to say that Putin does retain some control over the pro-Russian side. I am basing this on what Feanor has already laid out earlier in the thread; the escalation of commitment surely would imply some degree of Russian control over the militias. Besides, I think both sides are getting sick of all this. Saying no to a ceasefire, especially for the militias, would be detrimental.

Just my two cents. I might be misreading the whole thing entirely.
Well off course Putin has control over the pro-Russian side. Hell, he behind the whole thing. I was just saying that, due to the lack of the clear chain of command, that one might reasonably suspect, when it comes to the army consisted of dozens different militias, local units, and gunmen collected all over the place, Putin will be in harder position to push for cease fire, than Poroshenko.

While Poroshenko would have to worry over couple of "volunteer" batalions affiliated with right sector, etc ...his army is mainly consisted of regular army units. With pro-Russians it is other way around. Its probable that Russia has some number of regular troops inside Ukraine, however bulk of pro-Russian forces are militias, which are much harder to control. That's the difference.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well off course Putin has control over the pro-Russian side. Hell, he behind the whole thing. I was just saying that, due to the lack of the clear chain of command, that one might reasonably suspect, when it comes to the army consisted of dozens different militias, local units, and gunmen collected all over the place, Putin will be in harder position to push for cease fire, than Poroshenko.

While Poroshenko would have to worry over couple of "volunteer" batalions affiliated with right sector, etc ...his army is mainly consisted of regular army units. With pro-Russians it is other way around. Its probable that Russia has some number of regular troops inside Ukraine, however bulk of pro-Russian forces are militias, which are much harder to control. That's the difference.
I think you're wrong. The last ceasefire declared by Poroshenko was unilaterally and widely ignored by the volunteer btlns, and there are far more then a couple of them. Meanwhile as the local rebels get replaced by either Russian-trained personnel, or Russian military, they're more and more controllable. I'm sure some rebels will disregard a ceasefire, but Poroshenko has just as much if not more to worry about.

bmpd -
 

swerve

Super Moderator
As I said, I concede that an EU member leading the investigation does have its perks. They have the expertise, experience and equipment to carry this sort of investigation out, but that is also a point against the EU in my opinion. Sorry for insinuating dishonesty on the Dutch here (I have nothing against the Dutch), but what guaranty can the people of my country get from the Dutch / EU / Western block that they will carry out this investigation neutrally? There is obviously an interest in the West to make sure that the evidence points to Russia.
I think you're mistaking the nature of the investigation. As I understand the process, it will not say "The aircraft was shot down by such & such people". It will describe the damage, in detail, & discuss, in detail, what could have caused such damage, discussing various options & saying why one or another is thought more likely.

AFAIK it will not address the question of who might have pulled the trigger, if it concludes that a trigger was pulled. That is not its purpose.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think you're mistaking the nature of the investigation. As I understand the process, it will not say "The aircraft was shot down by such & such people". It will describe the damage, in detail, & discuss, in detail, what could have caused such damage, discussing various options & saying why one or another is thought more likely.

AFAIK it will not address the question of who might have pulled the trigger, if it concludes that a trigger was pulled. That is not its purpose.
you're absolutely correct. its the aviation engineering forensic equiv of a coroners report
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member

TankovayaVoyska

New Member
I think you're mistaking the nature of the investigation. As I understand the process, it will not say "The aircraft was shot down by such & such people". It will describe the damage, in detail, & discuss, in detail, what could have caused such damage, discussing various options & saying why one or another is thought more likely.

AFAIK it will not address the question of who might have pulled the trigger, if it concludes that a trigger was pulled. That is not its purpose.
I don't doubt that at all, and I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear. My concern was how politicians might move to misuse this information. There are some people that might stand to gain by misconstruing / manipulating the actual results, no matter what they might conclude.

Though to be frank, whether or not such purposeful misinterpretation of said results will actually yield any changes / effects to the entire crisis stands to be debated I guess.
 

TankovayaVoyska

New Member
A quick tangent, but has there been any use / sighting of T-84 variants in the fights in Eastern Ukraine? It would be interesting to see the effectiveness of this weapon system here, since it hasn't actually seen real combat.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
A quick tangent, but has there been any use / sighting of T-84 variants in the fights in Eastern Ukraine? It would be interesting to see the effectiveness of this weapon system here, since it hasn't actually seen real combat.
That's not a tangent. The entire previous conversation about the MH17 is the tangent. This is on-topic.

The answer is no. There are no T-84s available. The first 5 were shipped to Thailand, another 5 are expect to get shipped this year. At those production rates there is no reasonable expectation to get even a single tank btln up and running in time for anything.
 
I'll make an update post later when I have time, but fyi it's getting worse. Ukraine's last reserve Mech Bde, the 92nd, was sent into the conflict quietly to break through to the Ilovaysk pocket, and got shredded.
Thanks Feanor, but remember we still have no account of the 93rd Mech since April nor the 17th Armoured at all during crisis. Would also like to know more regarding the 128th Mtn Mech.

I'm sure much of the remaining bgde's are 'stretched' across all points, from the Belarusian border, Transnistria, Crimean border and the huge swathe of common Russian border in the NW of Ukraine.

Doesn't look great for UA on the current tactical front, although I don't think the rebel units could push out further on current positions, if indeed the RF forces have moved back across the border - is this the situation currently?

NATO has officially announced CASEVAC'ing UA wounded. (We already knew Germany had been undertaking this recently) Surprised to hear 'full interoperability' by Poroshenko regarding NATO on day1 of this summit.

If no T-84's available, why isn't much of the old and some newer equipment still in storage ie T-72BM, T-80UD?
 

TankovayaVoyska

New Member
Thanks Feanor, but remember we still have no account of the 93rd Mech since April nor the 17th Armoured at all during crisis. Would also like to know more regarding the 128th Mtn Mech.

I'm sure much of the remaining bgde's are 'stretched' across all points, from the Belarusian border, Transnistria, Crimean border and the huge swathe of common Russian border in the NW of Ukraine.

Doesn't look great for UA on the current tactical front, although I don't think the rebel units could push out further on current positions, if indeed the RF forces have moved back across the border - is this the situation currently?

NATO has officially announced CASEVAC'ing UA wounded. (We already knew Germany had been undertaking this recently) Surprised to hear 'full interoperability' by Poroshenko regarding NATO on day1 of this summit.
If UA breaks completely, will NATO members reinforce Kiev? They aren't obliged by their treaty to actually assist Ukraine, but what's stopping them from surreptitiously aiding Kiev forces, paralleling Russian efforts to support DPR forces?
 
If UA breaks completely, will NATO members reinforce Kiev? They aren't obliged by their treaty to actually assist Ukraine, but what's stopping them from surreptitiously aiding Kiev forces, paralleling Russian efforts to support DPR forces?
No, IMV it will be as they always say, 'Full support, stopping short of direct military intervention'

Much of what RF is doing in the east of Ukraine is being undertaken by 'western' elements.. Just not to the scale, capability and effectiveness undertaken by the RF. Logistically to match RF would be impossible whilst also being surreptitious.

One of the points Poroshenko mentioned was the military technical assistance in lethal and non-lethal weapons. When question by a Ukrainian journalist, he clarified and added 'precision guided' and left it there. I'll see if the transcript is available yet.
 

dprijadi

New Member
One of the points Poroshenko mentioned was the military technical assistance in lethal and non-lethal weapons. When question by a Ukrainian journalist, he clarified and added 'precision guided' and left it there. I'll see if the transcript is available yet.
is this supposed to mean a NATO air strikes against rebel targets ? or 'friendly allies' of Ukraine helping with Air Strikes ? please provide the transcript as soon as it is available , im interested , thanks..

i just hope the frog jumped out of the slowly boiling water before calamity :D

some update : September 4th 23:53 UTC/ZULU Ukraine SITREP: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/09/september-4th-2353-utczulu-ukraine.html

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks Feanor, but remember we still have no account of the 93rd Mech since April nor the 17th Armoured at all during crisis. Would also like to know more regarding the 128th Mtn Mech.

I'm sure much of the remaining bgde's are 'stretched' across all points, from the Belarusian border, Transnistria, Crimean border and the huge swathe of common Russian border in the NW of Ukraine.

Doesn't look great for UA on the current tactical front, although I don't think the rebel units could push out further on current positions, if indeed the RF forces have moved back across the border - is this the situation currently?

NATO has officially announced CASEVAC'ing UA wounded. (We already knew Germany had been undertaking this recently) Surprised to hear 'full interoperability' by Poroshenko regarding NATO on day1 of this summit.

If no T-84's available, why isn't much of the old and some newer equipment still in storage ie T-72BM, T-80UD?
Ukraine doesn't have any T-72B mod 1989 left (the so-called T-72BM). Nor does it have significant quantities of T-80UD in workable conditions.

No, IMV it will be as they always say, 'Full support, stopping short of direct military intervention'

Much of what RF is doing in the east of Ukraine is being undertaken by 'western' elements.. Just not to the scale, capability and effectiveness undertaken by the RF. Logistically to match RF would be impossible whilst also being surreptitious.

One of the points Poroshenko mentioned was the military technical assistance in lethal and non-lethal weapons. When question by a Ukrainian journalist, he clarified and added 'precision guided' and left it there. I'll see if the transcript is available yet.
Sounds interesting but might be wishful thinking or intentional ambiguity disguising the lack of real aid. We need specifics.Otherwise it's just words.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update - Situation on the Front

Russian sources report on government units still surrounded but not destroyed. All that follows is Russian claims from media sources.

Pieces of the 24th Mech is in Dyakovo, south of Antratsit.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/D...2!3m1!1s0x40e1bba1d504cf11:0xa327e950063764f2

The 1st Mech and volunteer btln Aydar were smashed in Novosvetlovka, Peremozhnoe, Georgievka, Khryaschevatoe, Lutugino. If you click on the link you will realize they were behind Lugansk, but apparently still encircled by rebels.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/L...2!3m1!1s0x40e029e9d2367ae1:0x19e8cd394e83a9c6
https://www.google.com/maps/place/N...2!3m1!1s0x411fcd791782ddab:0x49c247870b0ed2bc
https://www.google.com/maps/place/H...2!3m1!1s0x411fd643caf137db:0x3dabb7bc46931b88
https://www.google.com/maps/place/K...m2!3m1!1s0x411fd1fccc7fa0df:0x1313b98022a2d16

Elements of the 80th Airmobile are still surrounded in Zhdanovka.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Z...2!3m1!1s0x40e060c99b0834b7:0xeb5d3271f0b5b118

The assault on Ilovaysk was mainly done by volunteer btlns, and elements of the 17th Armored, and 93rd Mech. They ended up in the encirclement. An attempt to relieve the encirclement was made by elements of the 28th mech (a BTG) but it failed with high casualties.

The 51st and 30th Mech were almost annihilated.

Personal comment: this looks like the truth. It correlates and coincides with info from other sources. But it's not official.

http://argumenti.ru/army/n453/362972

There is fighting on the outskirts of Mariupol', including Grad fire at one of the government checkpoints. Btlns Dnepr and Azov are in Mariupol', but regular units are absent.

http://newsru.com/world/04sep2014/mariupl.html
http://azlok.livejournal.com/1054497.html
http://military-informant.com/index...hdu-opolchentsami-i-ukrainskimi-voennymi.html

1st Btln from the 79th Airmobile enters Mairupol' to strengthen defense of the city.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/980363.html

Destruction of Ukrainian Army at Lutugino. Shot by RT Graham Phillips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mPSYfr6JqM

Destruction at Starobeshevo, Khryaschevatoe, and Ukrainian troops still present near Lugansk. The top photos down to and including the video are at Starobeshevo.

http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2014/09/blog-post_4.html

Rebels report that government troops have used MT-12R AT guns. These are towed guns that use a radar for target acquisition.

http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2014/09/64-72.html

A rebel column was hit near Berezovoe. Destruction of some trucks, and possibly BMP-2s, is confirmed.

http://military-informant.com/index...it-voennuyu-kolonu-dnr-blizi-s-berezovoe.html

A rebel-sourced map. Note the shaded area. The rebels do not control it, but have some sort of presence there (recon elements).

http://u-96.livejournal.com/3737344.html

Su-25M1 shot down near Starobeshevo. I reported the shootdown earlier from Ukrainian army confirmation.

http://militarizm.livejournal.com/39552.html

Ukrainian media reports significant losses of the 92nd Mech in an attempt to move towards Ilovaysk.

http://sobitie.com.ua/dneprodzerzhinsk/vyhod-iz-okruzheniya-iz-pod-ilovayska-rasskaz-uchastnika
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/979201.html

Unsourced reports of a new Ukrainian offensive group from the north being formed.

http://sokol-ff.livejournal.com/845304.html

An interview with a Ukrainian volunteer from the 34th Territorial Defense Btln Kirovograd, near Gorlovka. He shows a fragment from an 82mm mine for the Vasilek mortar, and mentions that most locals are friendly to them but some are not.

He also mentions that they hand out food and medicine to locals. But complains that they often get ambushed, where it's obvious locals gave the rebels info.

http://jerry24-it.livejournal.com/400920.html

Battle damage in Debal'tsevo.

http://jerry24-it.livejournal.com/401956.html

More wreckage near Donetsk and Ilovaysk. The video claims it's all Ukrainian, but it's lying. At least one of the shots is of the MT-LBM 6MA that's a Russian variant provided to the rebels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xopf4kN6Rag

Rebel video near Lutugino. Nothing special.

http://jerry24-it.livejournal.com/401824.html

Destruction near Lutugino and Georgievka. Several Ukrainian columns are reported destroyed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQnnAQCuHCQ

Turret of a Russian T-72B3 destroyed in Ukraine.

http://s21.postimg.org/wyr2mhh5j/ufturtur.jpg

An ugly story from the 72nd Mech Bde.

5 tanks from the 72nd Mech were engaged by rebels and Russian tanks near Starobeshevo. They were offered a chance to surrender, friendly arty ignored calls for fire, so the tankers abandoned the tanks and left. (*personal comment - this could be the 5 tanks abandoned at Starobeshevo and proudly displayed by the rebels).

Some of the conscripts rebelled. Their btln of 300 had 8 BMPs, and 4 mortars. It was ordered to attack Starobeshevo, against prepared rebel and Russian military positions. They refused. They were then threatened with fire from friendly Grad units.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/977797.html
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update - Armed Forces

An article on rebel UAVs. It notes an interesting tactic of mounting grenades on tactical UAVs. When the enemy opens fire on them, they drop the grenade on the enemy positions. The UAVs are primarily used for tactical recon and fire-correciton. The rebels have one squadron of UAVs, are working on a second one, and operate the UAVs out of Donetsk area.

http://crustgroup.livejournal.com/159985.html

The rebels confirm that their wounded personnel is being treated in Crimean hospitals.

http://pivopotam.livejournal.com/307781.html

Burial ceremony for Russian VDV soldiers that allegedly died in Ukraine. It's very close to official recognition of Russian involvement.

http://twower.livejournal.com/1408968.html

A captured T-64B upgraded by the rebels.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/980041.html

Representatives of volunteer btlns said that they were offered MBTs by the government but the tanks in question were inoperable.

http://military-informant.com/index...nki-nakhodyatsya-v-nerabochem-sostoyanii.html

Ukrainian Tu-143s in the conflict zone.

http://twower.livejournal.com/1408153.html

Aid by donation for the 79th Airmobile Bde.

http://twower.livejournal.com/1408338.html

The commander of the volunteer btln Prikarpatye was arrested for desertion. This is the same btln that fled the conflict zone all the way back home.

http://military-informant.com/index...zaderzhali-komandira-batalona-prikarpate.html

The Ukrainian Dozor-B at an arms-expo in Poland.

bmpd.livejournal.com/978603.html

A Russian troop column moving through Voronezh.

http://zloy-odessit.livejournal.com/742506.html

The Pentagon says that 10 000 Russian troops are near Ukraine.

http://newsru.com/world/03sep2014/rustroops.html

Rebel fighters.

http://stainlesstlrat.livejournal.com/994216.html

The MVD is getting Army HMGs, the DShK.

http://military-informant.com/index...oluchat-pulemety-dshk-obraztsa-1937-goda.html

Photos and videos of predominantly the rebels.

http://u-96.livejournal.com/3734256.html
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update - General Background

At the NATO summit additional sanctions against Russia were called for.

http://newsru.com/world/04sep2014/narosanc.html

The rebels have come up with their own plan for ending the fighting, which involves humanitarian aid deliveries, and a no-fly zone for Ukrainian aircraft. They want OSCE observers in a neutral zone between them and Ukraine.

http://newsru.com/world/04sep2014/planproject.html

OSCE observers visit Shirokino, a village 22kms east of Mariupol'. They say nobody controls the village now.

http://newsru.com/world/05sep2014/osce_mariup.html

Strelkov sighted in Russia.

http://stainlesstlrat.livejournal.com/996829.html

Governor of Donbass visits Mariupol checkpoints.

http://stainlesstlrat.livejournal.com/1000001.html

Ukraine will import coal from South Africa.

http://stainlesstlrat.livejournal.com/996121.html

In Kiev MVD troops have surrounded the Antonov plant. Details are lacking.

http://military-informant.com/index...zavod-antonov-okruzhili-vnutrenne-vojska.html

Some sort of ceasefire plan is in the works but the details are hazy.

http://twower.livejournal.com/1406912.html

The IMF is considering giving Ukraine the next tranche of money early, this December.

http://stainlesstlrat.livejournal.com/993730.html

Obama visits Tallinn.

http://newsru.com/world/02sep2014/obamatallin.html
 
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