Ukranian Crisis

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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Feanor, I don't usually enter these conversations for lack of expertise but I saw a graph on TV which showed Putin's popularity within Russia. It had been steadily declining until Ukraine but since his actions it has rocketed upwards to his most popular ever.
It's a case of combining the necessary with the pleasant.

This then must be a particularly difficult conundrum for him to solve, back down and lose internal support or continue and be the "Man". How does he resolve this? Does he want to resolve this? How long can he let it run before it turns to custard?
This is just my opinion, and nothing more so don't take it as "The Truth". I think that Putin is in a very tough spot. On the one hand backing down is hard. Especially since the rebels are sure to lose, rapidly and decisively. Pulling support to the rebels now would mean a solid, although costly, Ukrainian victory. It would also mean caving to the EU. It would show that Russia can be strong-armed. And if it was done once over something as vital as Ukraine, it can be done again, over things less essential to Russia. On the other hand the cost of this continued defiance of the whole world, and the fact that nobody (literally nobody at all) is siding with Russia on this, puts him in a weak position. Many traditional partners like Belarus, or China, are willing to continue business as usual, and certainly won't join the sanctions regime or even try to pressure Russia in any way. But they're not backing Russia's position.

However there is another side to this. If he can drag this out until winter, the rebels are likely to have a much stronger position since defense is easier then offense, and the Ukrainian military is in horrible shape as far as supplies and field living conditions go. Come fall, the Ukrainian economy will likely hit another crisis. Borrowed money will start to run dry, the economy is still shrinking, and the damage will be more pronounced then, and of course gas will become an absolute necessity. Reverse from Europe can't cover more then a fraction of winter-time gas needs. Russian political analysts are predicting another internal power struggle of some sort come fall, given that the initial euphoria of electing a "new" government will have worn off, war weariness will start to set in, the economy will continue to swirl rapidly down the toilet, and the government will run out of funds. All of this gives Putin a strong incentive to try and drag this out until the October-November timeframe.

If the EU doesn't pass a fourth round of sanctions then it will look like Russia "successfully" defied the EU and the US. Given that by that time the position of the Kiev government will be extremely weak, we could see a new government take power, we could see a collapse of the general war effort in the east, we could even see some sort of agreement between Poroshenko and Putin. All of this can be sold domestically as a victory, might be a better outcome then coming to terms now, and certainly is possible to pull off.

A final thought, the Ukrainian economy is in bad, bad shape. The money to prevent economic disaster isn't there, even the money to keep the government afloat is lacking. The EU and the US are providing small quantities. So far the bulk of the funding is coming from IMF loans. And borrowing from the IMF is like dealing with the devil... Under Yanukovich, before things really went south, Russia was already giving Ukraine 15 billion without the nasty internal policy strings. Right now the money needed is much greater. More then the EU or US are willing to give. Probably more then the IMF is. At this point, I strongly suspect that even Russia can't/won't foot the entire bill. Which means that Ukraine is in for some rough times even under the best of circumstances.
 

Twain

Active Member
Twain that's the new Marines Brigade they declared they were forming, after losing Crimea. I posted a link to the new equipment they intend to use in the earlier part of this thread. The whole set of photos can be seen here.

urb_a:
aww hell that was supposed to be a reply to nick's post above yours
 
aww hell that was supposed to be a reply to nick's post above yours
Cheers Twain (and Feanor). I remember the mention of new Marine Bgde formation a few months back just after Crimea annex. Now it's location has been determined

Feanor - Granted we can take Ukrainian economy is not looking great in its current state, but I think you will find bridging loans coming in thick and fast when/if this crisis settles. The funding windows to Ukraine will be in stark contrast to the availability open for Russian govt and private sector requirements. Again, short term it won't be pleasant, especially considering the cost of reconstruction, but really depends on domestic reforms (if that is possible) and the taste for change.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/war-exacts-heavy-toll-on-ukraine-economy-and-national-mood-1407295910

Totally agree regarding Phase IV, although introduction IMV is a inevitable, especially considering the consistent build up on the border by RF forces.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It's a case of combining the necessary with the pleasant.

This is just my opinion, and nothing more so don't take it as "The Truth".
Thanks for that insight, it clarifies some of the wotifs that have been plaguing me.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Seems Russia has taken a little bite from the sanctions off.
Russia Bypassed A Big Part Of EU Sanctions - Business Insider
The article mentions the Norway deal was done earlier so I guess they get a walk and neither Norway or Switzerland are EU members. When it comes to energy, Europe is between a rock and a hard place when it comes to sanctions on energy related stuff. When it comes to military stuff, Norway will have to act differently as it is a NATO member but I am guessing they don't have much trade, if any, in this area.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Except Norway is going to implement sanctions. My company sells a lot of equipment to Russia, a lot of it used in commercial shipbuilding, oil & gas and Russian Navy projects. We are currently waiting on instructions from UDI (Norwegian foreign office) to continue sales and delivery to Russia.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Except Norway is going to implement sanctions. My company sells a lot of equipment to Russia, a lot of it used in commercial shipbuilding, oil & gas and Russian Navy projects. We are currently waiting on instructions from UDI (Norwegian foreign office) to continue sales and delivery to Russia.
Are you presently restricted from selling and delivering goods or are you awaiting a stop order?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update. Sorry it's been a while, but I've been a little busy. A lot of stuff has happened over the last couple of days.

Rebel sources claim the 28th Mech and 79th Airmobile Bdes have negotiated a withdrawal with the rebels surrounding them. They've surrendered their heavy weapons and equipment, and are now in the process of leaving.

Personal comment: This info is unconfirmed.

зри в корень - УкраинÑкие каратели запроÑили «белый коридор»
http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/3538-ukrainskie-karateli-zaprosili-belyy-koridor.html

The first few photos are images of military equipment allegedly surrendered by the 72nd Mech Bde, as part of the deal allowing their survivors to leave the encirclement.

Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Юго-ВоÑток Украины: война без конца...

Meanwhile other government units have been actively trying to break out of the encirclement. Two columns were allegedly defeated by rebels between Dmitrovka and Snezhnoe.

Украина в Ñпешном порÑдке выводит войÑка из Южного котла

There was info out of the 79th Airmobile bde that says they are in an absolutely desperate situation, and can't continue fighting any longer.

Военный 79-й аÑромобильной бригады ВС Украины Ñообщил шокирующие факты

The Ukainian offensive at Shahtersk has ended in disaster. Rebel sources talk about a lot of prisoners, and the Ukrainian military has retreated from Shahtersk leaving behind a scarred city, and destroyed equipment.

http://www.segodnia.ru/sites/default/files/shaht7.jpg
http://www.segodnia.ru/sites/default/files/shaht6.jpg
http://www.segodnia.ru/sites/default/files/shaht5.jpg
http://www.segodnia.ru/sites/default/files/shaht1.jpg
http://www.segodnia.ru/sites/default/files/shaht2.jpg
http://www.segodnia.ru/sites/default/files/shaht3.jpg
http://www.segodnia.ru/sites/default/files/shaht4.jpg
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=223324&d=1407314073
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=223323&d=1407314057

After withdrawing from Shahtersk, government troops proceeded to fire large caliber rocket-arty into the city. It's unclear what type exactly, but the craters it produced are startling. It appears they missed the city itself, and hit some of the suburbs.

Personal Comment: Seriously, watch the video. I don't even know what that could be. Tochkas? Smerch?

КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - ШахтерÑк поÑле обÑтрела
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMMoQC00nGA

A governemnt attack at a rebel checkpoint, was fought off by rebels. Warning, graphic video, not for those with a weak stomach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FTzdImY6x4

Photo and video from the conflict zone. Mostly government troops.

Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Юго-ВоÑток Украины: война без конца...

Battle damage in Snezhnoe.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=223364&d=1407404242
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=223363&d=1407404186
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=223362&d=1407404160
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=223361&d=1407404136
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=223360&d=1407404117
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=223359&d=1407403962
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=223358&d=1407403941

Battle damage in Donetsk. A hospital took arty fire.

КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - Донецк, поÑле обÑтрела
КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - Донецкий аÑропорт

A government MiG-29 was allegedly shot down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTVyrw7hHiQ

More images on the rebel UAV squadron.

bmpd -

Ukrainian soldiers in Russia, Rostov region. Probably the same ones that crossed earlier.

КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - УкраинÑкие Ñолдаты в палаточном лагере в РоÑтовÑкой облаÑти

Ukrainian volunteer btln Phoenix is getting 2S1 self-propelled artillery.

УкраинÑкий волонтерÑкий батальон "ФеникÑ" получит на вооружение артиллерийÑкие уÑтановки "Гвоздика"

The Maydan is up in flames, again. The new government has decided to break up the camp there, but so far has failed. Volunteer btlns Kiev-1 and Kiev-2 were used. Note that the volunteer btln showed up with firearms the first time around.

КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - Майдан отбил атаку коммунальщиков и Ñиловиков, продолжают палить шины
КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - При ÑтолкновениÑÑ… на Майдане поÑтрадали 50 правоохранителей
Бойцы батальона "Киев-1" проводÑÑ‚ зачиÑтку Майдана
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Déjà vu...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Эта пеÑÐ½Ñ Ð±ÑƒÐ´ÐµÑ‚ вечной...

T-64BM tanks and AA systems have been sighted moving through Kiev. There are a lot of rumors but the most likely reason is the August 24th independence day parade.

Ð’ Киев прибывÐÑÐ¶ÐµÐ»Ð°Ñ Ð²Ð¾ÐµÐ½Ð½Ð°Ñ Ñ‚ÐµÑ…Ð½Ð¸ÐºÐ°

Boroday is no longer head of the government of the DNR. He's been replaced by a certain Zaharchenko.

Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - Бородай ушел Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ñта главы ПравительÑтва.

A new company, called Turborus, will do all the service and maintenance of Ukrainian-built propulsion systems in the Russian Navy, after Ukraine blocked Zarya MZ from doing it themselves. It's unclear what will happen with the equipment not yet delivered, since deliveries have been blocked, but have already been paid for.

bmpd -

There may be plans to block flights of EU airlines over Siberia.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ñâåäåíèÿ î ãîòîâíîñòè ÐÔ îãðàíè÷èòü ïîëåòû íàä Ñèáèðüþ äëÿ ÅÑ â êà÷åñòâå îòâåòà íà ñàíêöèè ïîäòâåðæäàþòñÿ

Russian government sources claim they have evidence of use of phosphorus munitions by Ukrainian government forces.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: ÑÊÐ îáúÿâèë, ÷òî ïîëó÷èë "íåîïðîâåðæèìûå äîêàçàòåëüñòâà" ïðèìåíåíèÿ ôîñôîðíûõ áîìá ïðîòèâ ìèðíîãî íàñåëåíèÿ íà Óêðàèíå

Poland says that Russia may intervene militarily in Ukraine using a humanitarian mission as justification.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Â Ïîëüøå óâèäåëè âûðîñøóþ óãðîçó âòîðæåíèÿ ÐÔ íà Óêðàèíó. Â ÍÀÒÎ ïîäîçðåâàþò, ÷òî ãóìàíèòàðíàÿ ìèññèÿ ìîæåò ñòàòü ïðåäëîãîì

Ukrainian nuclear agency will hand some of it's trucks over to the military.

bmpd -
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Cheers Twain (and Feanor). I remember the mention of new Marine Bgde formation a few months back just after Crimea annex. Now it's location has been determined
It was always meant to be in Odessa region.

Feanor - Granted we can take Ukrainian economy is not looking great in its current state, but I think you will find bridging loans coming in thick and fast when/if this crisis settles. The funding windows to Ukraine will be in stark contrast to the availability open for Russian govt and private sector requirements. Again, short term it won't be pleasant, especially considering the cost of reconstruction, but really depends on domestic reforms (if that is possible) and the taste for change.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/war-exacts-heavy-toll-on-ukraine-economy-and-national-mood-1407295910

Totally agree regarding Phase IV, although introduction IMV is a inevitable, especially considering the consistent build up on the border by RF forces.
I'm not so optimistic. And the amounts of money required are quite large. I'm not sure why anyone would lend Ukraine money for anything but political reasons, since it's extremely likely that Ukraine won't pay it back. Ukraine is already up to it's ears in debt. It ultimately comes down to the willingness of the US and EU to prop up the Ukrainian government financially, while the economic situation worsens.

Remember Ukraine has an economy that exports heavily to the ex-USSR, but imports from the west. And with the Customs Union and the current trade wars with Russia, their traditional markets are being slowly but surely cut off. This applies to more then just the military and strategic industrial enterprises. It applies to bus factories, and rail-carriage plants, it applies to the chemical industry, and machine building.

Thanks for that insight, it clarifies some of the wotifs that have been plaguing me.
Last night, after thinking about the reply I wrote to you, I had a horrible thought. Winter comes... the cities are wrecked, Ukrainian offensive not only grinds to a halt but rolls back a little. And a territory with a population of ~2-3 million is left without power, effective government, or heating. A humanitarian catastrophe. And a Russian military intervention proceeds unopposed, because people need food and shelter. Nobody will be able to say a thing, because nobody else is in a position to do anything.

The horrible part isn't this. It's that somewhere in a Kremlin office, someone might have thought this up. That this might be planned for and counted on.
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Last night, after thinking about the reply I wrote to you, I had a horrible thought. Winter comes... the cities are wrecked, Ukrainian offensive not only grinds to a halt but rolls back a little. And a territory with a population of ~2-3 million is left without power, effective government, or heating. A humanitarian catastrophe. And a Russian military intervention proceeds unopposed, because people need food and shelter. Nobody will be able to say a thing, because nobody else is in a position to do anything.

The horrible part isn't this. It's that somewhere in a Kremlin office, someone might have thought this up. That this might be planned for and counted on.
They may not be waiting until winter. Various people are posting new videos showing Russian forces near the Ukrainian border which already have the MC peacekeeper markings apparently used by Russian forces.
 

montgomery

New Member
As I've already said, on the one hand this is worrisome, but on the other, those markings were sighted as far back as April. It's necessarily not a sign that intervention will happen soon.
If you think about old Soviet "deep battle" strategy and the way they use winter as a weapon, I think your speculation about this winter may be on the money. The cold will be arriving in Ukraine in a few short months. Everything favours Russia in this.
 

Twain

Active Member
Here's an interview with Dmitry Tymchuk.

Highlights:

He estimates the number of separatist fighters at 12,000, the lowest estimate I have seen, most estimates are anywhere from 15,000 to 27,000.

He's worried/speculating that some of the Aircraft seized in Crimea may be used in the future in a provocation.

Mercenary numbers appear to still be increasing.

Дмитрий Тымчук: Без уличных боев оÑвободить Донецк не удаÑÑ‚ÑÑ. Ðо Ñначала нужно закрыть границу | Днепр Вечерний - поÑледние новоÑти Днеп

I was very skepticalof Ukranian claims that they were steadily advancing from Dbaltsevo to the shakhtarsk area but the claims may have some truth to them.

From Vice News:

The reporter claims to be just north of the crash site. Other interesting things in the interview are that the Ukranian soldier says they control the road but not the surrounding territory and that they are placing their checkpoints closer together than in the past. Maybe they have learned a lesson about securing an area before moving on to the next town and getting surrounded?

https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispatch-65

Tymchuk's latest Posts:

"But the fact that the planning and conduct of operations now requires effort and professionalism from the ATO leadership, and the initiative and ability to take personal responsibility from the unit commanders–many times over than [was required] even a couple of weeks ago–is an indisputable fact."

Supply Problems?

"With regard to the Ukrainian troops, then, apparently, now they have the operational pause. Shock troops restore its combat capability (resupply, replenishment is underway logistics and improved supply system), goes rearrangement already concentrated and focusing additional company and battalion tactical groups."



Ход ÐТО: ÑÐµÐ°Ð½Ñ Ñкзорцизма Ð´Ð»Ñ Ñ‚ÐµÑ€Ñ€Ð¾Ñ€Ð¸ÑтичеÑкого мракобеÑÐ¸Ñ Ñƒ Горловки | ИнфоÑмационное Ñопротивление

https://www.facebook.com/dmitry.tymchuk/posts/539292722866054

https://www.facebook.com/dmitry.tymchuk/posts/539592159502777
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Here's an interview with Dmitry Tymchuk.

Highlights:

He estimates the number of separatist fighters at 12,000, the lowest estimate I have seen, most estimates are anywhere from 15,000 to 27,000.
I would place the number even lower then he does. The lowest estimate I've seen is 10 000, but I think it's even less then that. The truth is that the rebels consistently win, when they fight. Most of the time they withdraw to avoid encirclement. I think they're fewer in number then they appear to be. Look, they had no problem seizing and holding Saur-Mogila. They simultaneously fought a pretty large battle at Shahtersk, and maintained a stiff defense of Lugansk and Gorlovka. But that's it. Government troops have been advancing on Donetsk with the rebels fighting back a little before retreating deeper into built up areas. Government troops also cut the road between Snezhnoe and Shahtersk, and took Lisichansk and Amvrosievka with basically no resistance.

He's worried/speculating that some of the Aircraft seized in Crimea may be used in the future in a provocation.
Just the kind of lunacy I'd expect to hear from him. When a Ukrainian Su-25 bombed Lugansk, official Ukrainian sources first tried to suggest it was a MiG-29 captured by Russia in Crimea. They later had to give up that story. Most, if not all, Crimean aircraft have been shipped back to Ukraine. They're not really in flyable condition. And given the holes in Ukrainian airspace control, nothing prevents Russia from doing the same thing with a Russian MiG-29 that they could do with a captured Crimean one.

Mercenary numbers appear to still be increasing.
That loon is seriously trying to sell the idea that the rebels are using the brand new experimental MANPADS Verba. The one that has been handed over for experimental exploitation in a VDV unit... Unless he provides a real source I'd disregard anything he says. If it happens to be the truth, it's sheer coincidence.

I was very skepticalof Ukranian claims that they were steadily advancing from Dbaltsevo to the shakhtarsk area but the claims may have some truth to them.
They have a lot more then "some truth". Ukrainian troops drove into Shahtersk, ran into an ambush, and got destroyed. They pulled back, rallied, and attack properly this time, but were beaten back decisively, leaving behind (by my count) ~6 BMD-based vehicles, at least one BTR, and a number of trucks. Physical casualties are uncertain, but aren't small. Prisoners were taken by the rebels, paraded around, and photographed. The Ukrainian military is still near Shahtersk and is now shelling the city.

From Vice News:

The reporter claims to be just north of the crash site. Other interesting things in the interview are that the Ukranian soldier says they control the road but not the surrounding territory and that they are placing their checkpoints closer together than in the past. Maybe they have learned a lesson about securing an area before moving on to the next town and getting surrounded?
They're learning but slowly and painfully. Whether it's fast enough to deal with these rebels anyways (at a human cost) remains to be seen. Though right now, despite the recent set-backs, they're still winning.

Supply Problems?

"With regard to the Ukrainian troops, then, apparently, now they have the operational pause. Shock troops restore its combat capability (resupply, replenishment is underway logistics and improved supply system), goes rearrangement already concentrated and focusing additional company and battalion tactical groups."
Some Ukrainian officers commented that rebel artillery was better supplied with munitions then their own.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The rebels have every tactical advantage of any guerilla force in an asymmetric conflict, with the added bonus of the world's sixth biggest army standing directly behind them.
They've got more then that. They have a steady stream of supplies, their enemy is demoralized, stretched thin, and thoroughly incompetent, and they have professional military leadership from the looks of it. Bezler and Girkin are the tip of the iceberg. There are quite a few more ex-Russian military in there.

My point is that their success tactically makes them appear to be more then they are. I don't know this for a fact, but it seems increasingly likely that this is the case.

I think their ultimate failure is that the population didn't rise up to fight, and what was supposed to be an elite cadre around which an army would form has turned out to be a large chunk if not most of the fighting force.
 

Twain

Active Member
I would place the number even lower then he does. The lowest estimate I've seen is 10 000, but I think it's even less then that. The truth is that the rebels consistently win, when they fight. Most of the time they withdraw to avoid encirclement. I think they're fewer in number then they appear to be. Look, they had no problem seizing and holding Saur-Mogila. They simultaneously fought a pretty large battle at Shahtersk, and maintained a stiff defense of Lugansk and Gorlovka. But that's it. Government troops have been advancing on Donetsk with the rebels fighting back a little before retreating deeper into built up areas. Government troops also cut the road between Snezhnoe and Shahtersk, and took Lisichansk and Amvrosievka with basically no resistance.
That's definitely one interpretation, Another is that they fought and held in a few places and rapidly retreated from others. Strelkov's press release today when they lost Krasny Luch was something to the effect of, "Cossacks retreated as usual" along with a few other things that weren't very flattering.


Wall

As to Saur Mogila, I think the large amount of russian artillery had a lot to do with that. Everytime they moved to attack, they got shelled as did any UA troops in the cauldron yet they held out for over three weeks and most still escaped.


Just the kind of lunacy I'd expect to hear from him. When a Ukrainian Su-25 bombed Lugansk, official Ukrainian sources first tried to suggest it was a MiG-29 captured by Russia in Crimea. They later had to give up that story. Most, if not all, Crimean aircraft have been shipped back to Ukraine. They're not really in flyable condition. And given the holes in Ukrainian airspace control, nothing prevents Russia from doing the same thing with a Russian MiG-29 that they could do with a captured Crimean one.

That loon is seriously trying to sell the idea that the rebels are using the brand new experimental MANPADS Verba. The one that has been handed over for experimental exploitation in a VDV unit... Unless he provides a real source I'd disregard anything he says. If it happens to be the truth, it's sheer coincidence.
IIRC 37 of 45 migs in Crimea were returned and Ukraine has gotten 2 of the 37 air worthy again, but that's not the point to Timchuk's posts. Sure it's propaganda, but Ukraine is winning the the propaganda war in a quite effective manner. The real point to Timchuk's posts is that he obviously has connections inside th Ukranian government and reports at least part of their thinking in his posts. For example, one day he reports about problems in the MOD purchasing, a few days later, 2 senior bureaucrats get fired. There's a fair amount to be learned from his posts.
 
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