Ukranian Crisis

Status
Not open for further replies.

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Bombardier had a proposal for a Q400 production line in Russia. I have not heard much about it lately but assume it is on hold given the Harper govt's strong anti-Russian stance over the Ukraine situation. If not, then any criticism of France's Mistral by Canada sale is absolute hypocrisy.
One is a warship, the other a civilian airliner. Not exactly the same thing. We will see what this means for industrial cooperation projects like that one.

I personally hope that Norway puts principle before profit and joins in on the sanctions. It would be good for European solidarity, not to mention NATO solidarity as well.
Well I think a national government's job is to work for the benefit of the population it represents. If the best thing for Norway is a principal stand on this question because of its future international implications, then Norway should join the sanctions. Otherwise it should not. Expecting countries to act like people is silly. And when they do seem to do so, it's not because they're being principled, but for other reasons entirely.

It might go further to solidying what happened to the 9 Nigerian student the rebels were supposed to have kidnapped.
There have been rumors of blacks, arabs, and english-speaking white fighters from the government side. No evidence has actually surfaced.

Let's not forget, that aside from the Nigerian students there are black people living in Ukraine and Russia, although very few. There are some photos from the Chechen wars of black soldiers in the Russian military. And a black candidate ran for mayor of Volgograd not too long ago.

So they may have very well killed a black Ukrainian soldier.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

Extremely graphic photos from the destroyed BTR-D in Shahtersk. Info coming out now says no government troops are in Shahtersk. A small column entered and was attacked and destroyed. Looks like they lost a BTR-D, a BTR-80, and two GAZ-66 trucks. At least 10 Ukrainian soldiers died. A few were taken prisoners.

kolokoll:
Andrei-bt -
jerry24_it:
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Óêðàèíñêèå âîåííûå ïîïàëè â çàñàäó áëèç Øàõòåðñêà: ïîãèáëè íå ìåíåå 10 ÷åëîâåê

Ukrainian prisoners in Shahtersk. Warning, graphic photos.

Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - 31.07 ШахтерÑк
Блог Ивана ОктÑбрÑ-КолорадÑкого - Пленные укропы в ШахтерÑке, отвоевалиÑÑŒ, каратели

A destroyed BRDM-2.

http://s16.postimg.org/u3gbsbs3p/10559836_839140319430109_1120467688205400204_n.jpg

Abandoned rebel armored tractor in Lisichansk.

jerry24_it:

Long video of battle damage in Lugansk. I haven't had a chance to watch the whole thing so it may contain graphic material. Watch at your own peril.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdA6BG_mwM0

A map of the fighting, from the rebel side.

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/kot_ivanov/71733898/7597/7597_original.jpg

Unconfirmed info that government troops have pulled back from Torez and Shahtersk.

Блог Ивана ОктÑбрÑ-КолорадÑкого -
kolokoll:

A Ukrainian UAV, either a Tu-143 or Tu-243 was shot down by the rebels. It's an old Soviet UAV.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Сбитый БПЛÐ

Rebel troops moving through Khartsyzk.

jerry24_it:

Ukraine, OSCE, and Russia have agreed on a prisoner exchange. It remains to be seen whether the rebels cooperate.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Êîíòàêòíàÿ ãðóïïà ïî Óêðàèíå äîãîâîðèëàñü îá îñâîáîæäåíèè ïëåííûõ ïî ñõåìå "20 íà 20"

The G-7 will block projects in Russia by the World Bank.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: G7 íàìåðåíà áëîêèðîâàòü ïðîåêòû Âñåìèðíîãî áàíêà â Ðîññèè

In Chernovtsi region, local women beat up a Rada deputy, for calling on people to go fight the war.

Ð§ÐµÑ€Ð½Ð°Ñ ÐœÐ¾Ð»Ð½Ð¸Ñ - Ð’ ЧерновицклаÑти на митинге против мобилизации женщины побили депутата

The EU passes sanctions blocking sales and purchases of weapons and dual-use technology to Russia.

ЧаÑтный руÑÑкий журнал - Оружейное Ñмбарго
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Эмбарго на импорт и ÑкÑпорт оружиÑ
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
One is a warship, the other a civilian airliner. Not exactly the same thing. We will see what this means for industrial cooperation projects like that one.
There is a plan to use the Q400 as an MPA - that was an israeli initiaitive
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
There is a plan to use the Q400 as an MPA - that was an israeli initiaitive
Russia has a plan to use the Q-400 as a maritime patrol plane? I find that hard to believe... :confused:

But that brings up a wider question. What is "dual use"? Technically any airplane can be turned into a military airplane. Look at the Sudanese rolling drums of explosive out the back ramp of an An-26. Any car can be a military vehicle, look at those pickups or dump trucks the Ukrainian National Guard (and the rebels) are using as technicals. Hell you can sell me a pencil, I can sharpen it and stab some people with it. I can even equip my military with "tactical pencils".

I understand the last example is absurd, but you see my point don't you? France justifies Mistral sales by saying they're not warships. Because they're being sold without weapons. Even though they're being sold for the express purpose of mounting weapons and using them as a Russian Naval asset. I know the Mistral doesn't fall under the current round of sanctions (the contract predates august 1st), but it does raise interesting questions about what does.

Volvo seems to sell refueling trucks to the Russian military (I don't know the details, but they've been sighted). They're manufactured in Russia. You can pull the license, and refuse to do business, but Russia could nationalize the production line and keep the production open anyways. Trucks aren't that complicated. What about the French thermals? They're manufactured at a factory in the Urals, under license. I don't know what the level of localization is, but supposedly it's fairly high. Pull the license and Russian renames Katrin to Katyusha, and produces them anyways, while Thales takes a loss. Don't pull the license, and other companies will complain that Thales is getting special treatment.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Russia has a plan to use the Q-400 as a maritime patrol plane? I find that hard to believe... :confused:
no, there is an overall plan to market the Q400 as a P8 substitute - its primarily aimed at Baltic and Sth East Asian states though....

sanctions and dual use for shipbuilding:

Western sanctions will affect Russian shipbuilding | Barentsobserver

But that brings up a wider question. What is "dual use"? Technically any airplane can be turned into a military airplane. Look at the Sudanese rolling drums of explosive out the back ramp of an An-26. Any car can be a military vehicle, look at those pickups or dump trucks the Ukrainian National Guard (and the rebels) are using as technicals. Hell you can sell me a pencil, I can sharpen it and stab some people with it. I can even equip my military with "tactical pencils".

I understand the last example is absurd, but you see my point don't you? France justifies Mistral sales by saying they're not warships. Because they're being sold without weapons. Even though they're being sold for the express purpose of mounting weapons and using them as a Russian Naval asset. I know the Mistral doesn't fall under the current round of sanctions (the contract predates august 1st), but it does raise interesting questions about what does.

Volvo seems to sell refueling trucks to the Russian military (I don't know the details, but they've been sighted). They're manufactured in Russia. You can pull the license, and refuse to do business, but Russia could nationalize the production line and keep the production open anyways. Trucks aren't that complicated. What about the French thermals? They're manufactured at a factory in the Urals, under license. I don't know what the level of localization is, but supposedly it's fairly high. Pull the license and Russian renames Katrin to Katyusha, and produces them anyways, while Thales takes a loss. Don't pull the license, and other companies will complain that Thales is getting special treatment.
well, the chinese regularly breached dual use restrictions by arguing that the gear was required for anti-terrorism reqs during the Beijing Olympics

considering russias attitude to Norway and the Finns over the last 6 months, then they've made a rod for their own back
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
no, there is an overall plan to market the Q400 as a P8 substitute - its primarily aimed at Baltic and Sth East Asian states though....

sanctions and dual use for shipbuilding:

Western sanctions will affect Russian shipbuilding | Barentsobserver
Interesting info, thanks.

well, the chinese regularly breached dual use restrictions by arguing that the gear was required for anti-terrorism reqs during the Beijing Olympics
The current EU sanctions include a clause about things necessary to EU security being exempt. I wonder how that will be interpreted.

considering russias attitude to Norway and the Finns over the last 6 months, then they've made a rod for their own back
Can you elaborate on this? I haven't heard much, but then I haven't been paying attention.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Can you elaborate on this? I haven't heard much, but then I haven't been paying attention.
Russia has been slowly needling Norway over the last 6 months - from cross border issues to food supply issues, to overflights. They recently rejected Norwegian fish for being infected - something that is unheard of. Norway ties in the russian behaviour with geostrat issues on norwegian oil, russian gas, the artic boundary issue and Norways inclination to establish a new baltic security partnership in conjunction with but not separate to some NATO relationships

The Finns have been overtly threatened about damage to russo-finn relationships if they progress with the Baltic or NATO alliance. The new Finnish PM is pro NATO. The military is hardening its attitude to the russians constantly implying threat on what they see are sovereign decisions - and which are none of the russians (damn) business
 

Twain

Active Member
Volvo seems to sell refueling trucks to the Russian military (I don't know the details, but they've been sighted). They're manufactured in Russia. You can pull the license, and refuse to do business, but Russia could nationalize the production line and keep the production open anyways. Trucks aren't that complicated. What about the French thermals? They're manufactured at a factory in the Urals, under license. I don't know what the level of localization is, but supposedly it's fairly high. Pull the license and Russian renames Katrin to Katyusha, and produces them anyways, while Thales takes a loss. Don't pull the license, and other companies will complain that Thales is getting special treatment.
From an economics standpoint, that is just about the worst thing russia could do. Russia is already experiencing a flight of capital out of the county to the tune of at least $100 billion this year. There is a $50 billion judgement against russia over the yukos deal. Granted they will probably never collect any of that but the point is, investors are already nervous about investing in russia, nationalizing more industries would only make them even more nervous and reluctant to invest. Now add in the fact that crude oil prices look set to drop below $104 per barrel, the price the russian federal budget is predicated upon, and you're looking at serious economic problems if anymore money leaves russia.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
From an economics standpoint, that is just about the worst thing russia could do. Russia is already experiencing a flight of capital out of the county to the tune of at least $100 billion this year. There is a $50 billion judgement against russia over the yukos deal. Granted they will probably never collect any of that but the point is, investors are already nervous about investing in russia, nationalizing more industries would only make them even more nervous and reluctant to invest. Now add in the fact that crude oil prices look set to drop below $104 per barrel, the price the russian federal budget is predicated upon, and you're looking at serious economic problems if anymore money leaves russia.
Maybe. But consider that if the license is pulled, then the capital has already left Russia. Now it's a question of whether Russia lets production cease and respects the copyright, or doesn't and continue production anyways. They could even take the middle road, shut down the actual license production, and take 6 months or a year to develop a suitable domestic alternative based on technology acquired from the license production process. The differences could be minimal. So it's not really the type of nationalization you're talking about.

The military is hardening its attitude to the russians constantly implying threat on what they see are sovereign decisions - and which are none of the russians (damn) business
Well that makes sense. Russia would much rather deal one on one with smaller countries then one on many with a powerful and not very friendly alliance. Not a good way to go about it though, in my opinion.
 

Twain

Active Member
Maybe. But consider that if the license is pulled, then the capital has already left Russia. Now it's a question of whether Russia lets production cease and respects the copyright, or doesn't and continue production anyways. They could even take the middle road, shut down the actual license production, and take 6 months or a year to develop a suitable domestic alternative based on technology acquired from the license production process. The differences could be minimal. So it's not really the type of nationalization you're talking about.
No only part of the capital has left russia in that scenario. If the licence is pulled only the capital necesary to cover variable costs is gone. When you nationalize the plant, you also owe for the physical plant and any machinery inside it, copyright,patent infringements etc.. But that's not the point, the point is investors are increasingly reluctant invest in Russia because of sanctions and because of situations like Yukos. Investors expect the russian government to respect their investments and ensure they won't be siezed for "unjust" reasons. The yukos judgements shows is not happening and nationalizing anymore companies would make things much worse.Capital outflow would definitely increase if that were to happen That's not something Russia can afford. The yukos judgement is bad enough by itself, moving farther down that road could easily be catastrohic in terms of outside investment.

As of the end of June, capital outflows from russia have totalled $75 billion and it's expected to reach at least $100 billion by year end. When you are looking at a total GDP of right at $2 trillion, You've just lost 5% of your GDP. That doesn't mean your gdp decreases by 5%, it's just a comparison to show the magnitude of the problem.

Russia won't go into default because of this since they have huge capital reserves, but economic growth will be flat to negative if this does happen.
 

SolarWind

Active Member
No only part of the capital has left russia in that scenario. If the licence is pulled only the capital necesary to cover variable costs is gone. When you nationalize the plant, you also owe for the physical plant and any machinery inside it, copyright,patent infringements etc.. But that's not the point, the point is investors are increasingly reluctant invest in Russia because of sanctions and because of situations like Yukos. Investors expect the russian government to respect their investments and ensure they won't be siezed for "unjust" reasons. The yukos judgements shows is not happening and nationalizing anymore companies would make things much worse.Capital outflow would definitely increase if that were to happen That's not something Russia can afford. The yukos judgement is bad enough by itself, moving farther down that road could easily be catastrohic in terms of outside investment.

As of the end of June, capital outflows from russia have totalled $75 billion and it's expected to reach at least $100 billion by year end. When you are looking at a total GDP of right at $2 trillion, You've just lost 5% of your GDP. That doesn't mean your gdp decreases by 5%, it's just a comparison to show the magnitude of the problem.

Russia won't go into default because of this since they have huge capital reserves, but economic growth will be flat to negative if this does happen.
Whatever western capital may be liquified, may very well flee Russia. But what about plants, production facilities, other physical property? I seriously doubt Russia would allow any physical capital to leave the country at this point. Russia has been cut from US and EU credit markets. If licenses are pulled I could see Russia taking a step to nationalize US and EU property and default on US and EU loans. That step would only be more assured if after trying to sue the west for the sanctions through the WTO, a west-favoring decision is reached by WTO judicial. The bottom line is that it may in the end be in Russia's best interest to nationalize western property and default on western loans once capital has fled and relations have soured to a point of no return. If relations keep souring at the rate they have, we just might see it happening.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Someone here asked about what kinds of posts arne't acceptable. This would be a prime example of the kind of material we're talking about.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I believe Field Aviation and Boeing are working on a P8 light using a Bombardier Challenger 605 business jet but perhaps others are utilizing the Q400 for MPA. In any event it is messy to pin down dual use stuff when sanctions are being discussed.
 
Whatever western capital may be liquified, may very well flee Russia. But what about plants, production facilities, other physical property? I seriously doubt Russia would allow any physical capital to leave the country at this point. Russia has been cut from US and EU credit markets. If licenses are pulled I could see Russia taking a step to nationalize US and EU property and default on US and EU loans. That step would only be more assured if after trying to sue the west for the sanctions through the WTO, a west-favoring decision is reached by WTO judicial. The bottom line is that it may in the end be in Russia's best interest to nationalize western property and default on western loans once capital has fled and relations have soured to a point of no return. If relations keep souring at the rate they have, we just might see it happening.
Truth be told the current capital/ debt market outflow(s) will affect the economy (including manufacturing and physical infrastructure) through the banking system. Top four domestic institutional banks have heavy bond issues dominated in EURO, USD and CHF which require constant refinancing based on value-at-risk. Manufacturing/ capital infrastructure are dependant on this outlet for funding . If it dries at the top, it has a trickle- down effect. This is just the institutional capital markets.

You look at the government borrowing levels and again this becomes bleaker. Prior to the last round of imposed sanction issued 3-4 days ago, WSJ provided some basic numbers from early July. In 2015, Russian Finance ministry is doubling the borrowing requirement. This number will go up and esitmates from the Economist and some other sources expect this to triple based from 2014 actuals. Russia Plans More Domestic Borrowing as Options Narrow - WSJ

World bank is now reviewing participation and funding for Russian Dev projects. Many others (IMF, EBRD etc) will follow by choice or regulation requirements

Rating agencies, capital market borrowing and further Ruble risks (down trade-weighted 9% and that's likely to fall to below May levels) highlight how dangerous it could become.

You mentioned the WTO, which is a great point to illustrate what is at risk. Russia fought 'tooth and nail' to gain member status. Nationalising the current international partnership 'assets' inside the Russian federation would have grave consequences for the domestic economy over the next 7-10 years. Nationalising would be a message that Russia would not want to contemplate on any serious wholesale level as you propose.

Argentina with Repsol as a recent example. In the long term you will have to pay it back, if you want to play with everyone again..

In fact the Yukos court ruling from a few days back ($50b USD) to pay shareholders for exactly what you are mentioning above.. expropriating the assets of Yukos in a "politically motivated attack" Rouble reaches weakest level since May - FT.com

I agree with Twain and you seem to be underestimating this impact from an economic perspective. An economy such as the Russian, is not in a vacuum by any stretch. Certain Govt polices may have some short term help / relief, but essentially in the medium- long term the consequences aren't great and look worse as we progress

To say this might be the 'point of no return' is a tad incorrect IMV and a little premature. Diplomatically this has hardly started...
 
Last edited:

Twain

Active Member
Whatever western capital may be liquified, may very well flee Russia. But what about plants, production facilities, other physical property? I seriously doubt Russia would allow any physical capital to leave the country at this point. Russia has been cut from US and EU credit markets. If licenses are pulled I could see Russia taking a step to nationalize US and EU property and default on US and EU loans. That step would only be more assured if after trying to sue the west for the sanctions through the WTO, a west-favoring decision is reached by WTO judicial. The bottom line is that it may in the end be in Russia's best interest to nationalize western property and default on western loans once capital has fled and relations have soured to a point of no return. If relations keep souring at the rate they have, we just might see it happening.
Nick covered a lot of the needed reply already but I'm not sure you realize the consequences to widespread nationalization of companies. While it is legal to nationalize companies, the country that does the nationalization is required to pay the shareholders the fair market value of the seized assets. If Russia were to refuse to pay the consequences would be disastrous. Things like capital outflows, seizure of Russian assets held outside of Russia, potentially total denial of access to foreign banking etc.

Russia chose a few years back to become part of the world economy, the price of that is to also follow the rules of international trade. While in theory they could again withdraw from the world economy, the costs would be devastating. If you want to see an example of what happens when you start nationalizing everything in sight, take a look at the colombian economy. The russian government already owns or controls almost 50% of the russian economy, couple that with a withdrawl from world markets and you have nothing more than the Soviet Union V2.0.
 

SolarWind

Active Member
Nick covered a lot of the needed reply already but I'm not sure you realize the consequences to widespread nationalization of companies. While it is legal to nationalize companies, the country that does the nationalization is required to pay the shareholders the fair market value of the seized assets. If Russia were to refuse to pay the consequences would be disastrous. Things like capital outflows, seizure of Russian assets held outside of Russia, potentially total denial of access to foreign banking etc.

Russia chose a few years back to become part of the world economy, the price of that is to also follow the rules of international trade. While in theory they could again withdraw from the world economy, the costs would be devastating. If you want to see an example of what happens when you start nationalizing everything in sight, take a look at the colombian economy. The russian government already owns or controls almost 50% of the russian economy, couple that with a withdrawl from world markets and you have nothing more than the Soviet Union V2.0.
In my understanding, the game of isolating russia that is currently being played on the world stage may in the extreme case lead to the withdrawal of russia from the western markets to have something resembling Soviet Union V2.0 as you say. That is if russia is not already going there anyway. This is something that I hope will not happen.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Updates.

A T-64BV destroyed near Avdeevka.

Gur Khan attacks!:

Fighting continues on the outskirts of Donetsk. One of the TV towers is damaged, limiting access to Russian TV. Rebel sources say that government troops had taken Staro-Mikhailovka, Mari'inka, and Aleksandrovka, but were pushed out of the last two by the end of the day. They also say fighting is continuing around Shahtersk. A couple of interesting videos in the third link.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Óêðàèíñêàÿ àðìèÿ ñ áîåì âûøëà íà îêðàèíó Äîíåöêà
zloy_odessit -
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Поле Ð±Ð¾Ñ - Украина...

Lugansk has lost water and electricity due to government shelling.

Personal Comment: in other words, it's not a problem with providing basic services, it's simply battle damage.

КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - ЛуганÑк обÑтреливают, нет ÑвÑзи и Ñвета

Btln Donbass near Pervomaysk operating an ATGM from the top of a civilian van.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - ÐžÑ€Ð¸Ð³Ð¸Ð½Ð°Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ð°Ñ ÐºÐ¾Ð»ÐµÑÐ½Ð°Ñ Ð±Ð°Ð·Ð° Ð´Ð»Ñ ÐŸÐ¢Ð Ðš

Rebels in Donetsk.

КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - День ВДВ в Донецке
КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - а в Ñто Ð²Ñ€ÐµÐ¼Ñ Ð² Донецке

A BTR-4 in the conflict zone.

zloy_odessit -

A video shot by the rebels. They claim that they fought off a government offensive at Shahtersk. You'll note that the entire rebel column is in civilian cars. Usually rebels are seen in trucks or even armored vehicles.

Personal Comment: I suspect that this is because people naturally take video and photos of rebel armored columns. The real rebel forces probably look more like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkJEzGFc27c

Rebels training in use of MANPADS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBTpfgZH2lE

The rebel confirm that they have executed some of their own personnel for crimes, under military law.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ñîâåòíèê Ñòðåëêîâà-Ãèðêèíà ïîäòâåðäèë ôàêò êàçíåé "ïî çàêîíàì âîåííîãî âðåìåíè"

Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs says that the EU has effectively removed the arms embargo on Ukraine.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: ÌÈÄ: Åâðîñîþç "ïî-òèõîìó" ñíÿë çàïðåò íà ïîñòàâêè îðóæèÿ Óêðàèíå

The US will provide Ukraine with 19 mln USD worth of funds for equipping the National Guard. 4 companies, and one tactical HQ.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Âàøèíãòîí äàñò Óêðàèíå 19 ìëí äîëëàðîâ íà ïîäãîòîâêó è îñíàùåíèå íàöãâàðäèè

Major European companies are declaring that they will suffer from the sanctions against Russia.

Personal comment: I suspect a lot of EU business will push for exemptions or exceptions to the sanctions.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Êðóïíûå åâðîïåéñêèå êîìïàíèè çàÿâèëè îá óáûòêàõ èç-çà ñàíêöèé ïðîòèâ Ðîññèè
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top