Royal New Zealand Air Force

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Completely agree. There will always be a requirement for a man in the loop but that does not mean they need to be inside the aircraft. I think NZ should get experience with UAV. Start with ISR and then progress to a UCAV.
UAVs, UCAV, etc, cost money; e.g., at the present point in time Triton costsas much as a P8, so we will not see a P8 Triton combo wearing the kiwi. NZ govts are very adverse to spending big dollars on defence because NZ pollies and NZ media see it more as a luxury rather than a necessity. This attitude informs the public and you get a group of middle class trendy socialists who politicise defence issues.

Then you have the neoliberal economic and social policies which have held sway in NZ politics since 1984 which have marginalised a large part of the population because the core structure of this philosophy is the belief in individual responsibility regardless of circumstances and that governments should have a very minimal role in everyday life and that market forces will equitably distribute a nations wealth. This is the philosophy of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher but NZs variant is a more extreme variant, hence the large income disparities and marginalisation. So more money has to be spent on social programs in the long term and far less money in the pot for defence, which makes things extra difficult. In a way what we need here is to replace the neoliberal political philosophy with the US neoconservative political philosophy. That would ensure plenty of money for defence. Hmmm our pollies would probably want to invade Tasmania then :D :D

That's the background behind why NZ currently is poor on defence. Just one thing of note. The NZ Labour party voted in 1958 to adopt a policy of not having an ACF so what uncle Helen did castrating the RNZAF in 1999 wasn't a new policy for the Labour party. There is a photo floating around of uncle Helen and Phil Goff protesting tnebarrival of the A4 Skyhawks aboard USS Ranger at Auckland in 1970. The copies of that photo disappeared from the NZ archives and the NZ Herald archives sometime between 2000 and 2007. We know that photo exists because it has been seen.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hi everyone, I have been watching the site for a couple of months and thought it was time to join the conversation with a new RNZAF topic.

I am interested in the communities view on what the potential options for the Defence Capital Plan (DCP) Future Air Mobility Capability (FAMC) and Future Air Surveillance Capability (FASC) Projects (i.e. C-130/757/P-3K2 replacements) may be. I am interested in your vision of what type/number of platforms would meet the NZDFs current Mobility & Surveillance requirements, what are the advantages/disadvantages or your suggestions, how would the NZDF have to change the way it currently does business to utilise your suggestions and finally is this an affordable realistic option, both time wise and staying within the Governments stated budget intentions (links to any definitive costings would be appreciated).

It would be appreciated if you could provide the justification behind the statements you make so that everyone understands why you making the argument for one option over another, this allows for an understanding on the robustness of your choices. I look forward to reading your replies.
Hi Reaver, welcome aboard. Best idea is to have a read back through this thread (start around 2011) and the NZDF thread. I started you at page 101 which is in 2010 and you might have to flick forward a bit. Both these threads will give you a very good understanding. Any questions don't hesitate to ask. Feel free to pm as well. Re costings I'll put something up in next few days. Everybody does it differently so it can be very confusing.
 
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Zero Alpha

New Member
H

I am interested in the communities view on what the potential options for the Defence Capital Plan (DCP) Future Air Mobility Capability (FAMC) and Future Air Surveillance Capability (FASC) Projects (i.e. C-130/757/P-3K2 replacements) may be. I am interested in your vision of what type/number of platforms would meet the NZDFs current Mobility & Surveillance requirements, what are the advantages/disadvantages or your suggestions, how would the NZDF have to change the way it currently does business to utilise your suggestions and finally is this an affordable realistic option, both time wise and staying within the Governments stated budget intentions (links to any definitive costings would be appreciated).
One of the obstacles to having informed debate about some of these capability requirements is the lack of publicly available planning requirements. Unlike some countries, we don't declare that we need to be able to deploy X units, Y distance within Z time.

The fundamental issue that will shape future ISR requirements is whether or not government accepts the need for airborne ASW (not limited to sub-surface ISR).

If air delivered anti-sub munitions aren't required, then a common fleet based on Hercules or A400 and a twin-engine utility would fit the bill. Interchangeable palletised capabilities across a couple of platform sizes (long and medium range) would give additional flexibility and potentially reduce logistics costs. Operating a fleet that's more focused on mission payload than the platform will need a mindset shift, but nothing too radical.

All-in, there's probably around 3.5 billion to spend across airlift and ISR.
 

Reaver

New Member
Zero Alpha, I am interested in what people think the options are to provide the NZDF with a realistic set of Capabilities for the future, my comment around the costings was to hopefully weed out the unrealistic visions of vast fleets of various types aircraft, requiring huge Introduction into Service costs that would blow the overall Defence budget.

I would be nice to see some of the reasoning behind the some of the opinions that are expressed on the forum and an understanding that every option has advantages and disadvantages. Unless these are considered it is hard to determin if the suggestion is a realistic option or just a "wouldn't it be cool if we brought" comment.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Whilst I don't want to harp on about the ACF as part of a RNZAF capabilty but the loss of an offensive aircraft within the NZ orbat was at a detrimit to the overall capabilty of a layerd defence force, if i remember correctly it was either disband the ACF or only two frigates, aunty really did a number on you blokes.

The RNZAF must be able to respond in a timely manner and, if it becomes necessary, to engage hostile ships at some distance from New Zealand. Maintaining that ability was an important part of deterrence: ensuring this type of threatening situation does not eventuate. With an uncertain future in regards to the SCS and Pacfic ocean in general an ACF in Kiwi colours was an extension to the overall capabilty of the RAAF in general as part of an overall strategy of hedging your bets as part of numerous international treaty such as FPDA and ANZUS, whilst their was a cooling of the latter Australia still treated NZ as part of that alliance
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Zero Alpha, I am interested in what people think the options are to provide the NZDF with a realistic set of Capabilities for the future, my comment around the costings was to hopefully weed out the unrealistic visions of vast fleets of various types aircraft, requiring huge Introduction into Service costs that would blow the overall Defence budget.

I would be nice to see some of the reasoning behind the some of the opinions that are expressed on the forum and an understanding that every option has advantages and disadvantages. Unless these are considered it is hard to determin if the suggestion is a realistic option or just a "wouldn't it be cool if we brought" comment.
Zero Alpha does state a main determinant in choosing particular platform(s) to assess prior to purchase. That is what are you going to use the platform for and what level of capability do you want it to have? Once you have decided the answers to that then you can start looking at specifics. For instance, the P8MMA offers more capability across the board than a Sea Herc, C295MPA or an A400 MPA could because of certain capabilities within the P8MMA platform.

With regard to airlift capabilities, some of us have differing opinions. We have to look at the needs of NZDF and what it is required to move. At present the RNZAF has five ancient C130H(NZ)s and two B757-200 Combis. The B757s are used for pax, VIP pax, medivac and freight or combinations thereof. They have their advantages in that they can move 180 odd pax over greater distance than the B737-800 or A320 can but less than the B767 or A330 MRT can. However the B757s do not have self protection suites like the C130H(NZ)s so, for example, they could not fly into Kabul because they did not meet ISAF requirements.

The Hercs have a max payload lift capability of 20 tons and it has a fixed fuselage cross section, so there is not much potential for any further reasonable developmental increase in the payload capability and / or the fuselage cross section. However whilst the aircraft size hasn't increased exponentially in 50 years, the size and mass of the equipment that it is required to convey has. For example the Hercs were quite capable of carrying the Scorpion tanks, the Bedford RL trucks or the Unimogs, however they will be struggling to carry the NZLAV and probably the new heavy MAN vehicles and they cannot carry the NH90 helicopters. Therefore replacing the Hercs with a newer Herc is not really a viable option. Another thing we have to look at is that whatever replaces our Hercs will be expected to be operational for 50 years. The USAF has started a program to look at C130 replacement, so we do not want to be 40 years down the track with an orphan fleet because an orphan fleet means extra costs and time finding parts. Then when the Andovers were retired they weren't replaced so we don't have a tactical airlifter with the Hercs filling both the tactical and strategic role.

Therefore when we are looking at replacement platforms we do have to take into account the variables I have alluded to above and what the latest DWP and DCP state. Remember at the end of the day that it is the NZG i.e, Cabinet, who determine the roles and the capability and it is they who make the final decision on any major equipment purchase. That is always a political and financial decision.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Until the NZDF releases information on the transport study, the best of us can only make some guesses and informed suggestions.

There are several variables which make it difficult to determine what airlift needs are most pressing. There are basically four variables which come into play and they are;

  1. What is being airlifted (kit, personnel, etc)
  2. How much space does it occupy
  3. How much does it weigh
  4. How far does it have to be airlifted

One airlift factor realized by the US and Oz, is that many of the larger airlifters (like the C-130) would be flying missions while partially empty on a regular basis. This was usually because a smaller cargo was needed somewhere too far to be transported via helicopter or a small/short-ranged airlifter.

IMO the RNZAF does need to have at least some examples of a large airlifter like the A400M to have heavy or outsized cargoes, and/or cover strategic distances. However, give the cost of run such large aircraft, and the fact that regularly a small load of perhaps only a pallet or two might need to be moved, then some smaller airlifters would also be a wise idea.

What tends to muddy the issue for NZ is that while the most required loads might be tactical loads, often the distance is strategic.
 

Reaver

New Member
Thanks for the comments so far, it is good to see there is a understanding of the problems when you crystal ball gaze into future requirements. However what would be nice to see is some potential solutions based on what you think is the best "bang for buck" to the NZDF based on your own perceptions of what you believe is required. From this I believe there will be quality debate on what suggestions have merit and what is just wishful thinking as advantages & disadvantages are discussed.

For example,

FAMC - Five C-130J & Two C-17
FASC - Four P-8 & two Tritions

Advantages
Modern mature platforms (P-8 excluded), Compatability with allies, Keeps existing RNZAF C-130 experience, Self Protection Sytems installed, Air to Ground missles, greater load carridge (e.g. NH90), Large worldwide fleet numbers, US based OEMs.

Disadvantages
Expensive both CAPEX & OPEX probably unaffordable, complex ILS, performance issues when operating out of WP, massive Mission Support overheads, mixed & small fleet sizes, new infrastructure (hangars, simulators, mission support). Increased personnel required, does not address VIP Strat transport, ITAR issues, P-8 is still developmental.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
There are several variables which make it difficult to determine what airlift needs are most pressing. There are basically four variables which come into play and they are;

  1. What is being airlifted (kit, personnel, etc)
  2. How much space does it occupy
  3. How much does it weigh
  4. How far does it have to be airlifted
There's another key element too -

  • How long do we have to get it there?

You're looking at a Surge Cycle Rate X Fleet Size calculation.

Depending on your planning distance, at a certain point sealift will be more efficient and faster. The trick for NZ is to hit the sweet spot that allows a surge capacity to cope with scenarios that need X cargo deployed faster than a ship can get there.

Having an ability to deploy a light company group by air in one wave is probably a reasonable assumption for planning. Distance wise, Darwin/Timor would be great, but the Solomons/Tonga/Fiji/Samoa is more realistic. Doing it without disrupting scheduled tasks would be even better.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
There's another key element too -

  • How long do we have to get it there?

You're looking at a Surge Cycle Rate X Fleet Size calculation.

Depending on your planning distance, at a certain point sealift will be more efficient and faster. The trick for NZ is to hit the sweet spot that allows a surge capacity to cope with scenarios that need X cargo deployed faster than a ship can get there.

Having an ability to deploy a light company group by air in one wave is probably a reasonable assumption for planning. Distance wise, Darwin/Timor would be great, but the Solomons/Tonga/Fiji/Samoa is more realistic. Doing it without disrupting scheduled tasks would be even better.
Actually distance is only one of the indicators for when sealift is more efficient. Perhaps the primary indicator would actually be volume/weight required, as a sealift vessel can transport a vastly larger amount of supplies and kit than even a fleet of aircraft can.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Actually distance is only one of the indicators for when sealift is more efficient. Perhaps the primary indicator would actually be volume/weight required, as a sealift vessel can transport a vastly larger amount of supplies and kit than even a fleet of aircraft can.
I wonder. Given the type of lifting, would NZ consider a fast ferry (JHSV style) in leiu of say a C130. Moving say 600t/ 200 troops from NZ to Sydney (or Fiji) in say 30hrs. And you could move loads that are incompatible with C-130's. From Sydney they could be flown via C-17 globally (or leased aircraft), or in the case of Fiji, you have something that could support operations for 24-48 hrs until a LHD or other ships arrived, then fall back to intra-theater support operations. Also useful for patrol, humanitarian and ASW with useful helo support.

A C-130 to move 600t would take ~ 4hr + 4hr each flight and need 30 flights. 240 hrs and at much greater expense. 1 JHSV could do the work of 8+ C-130 in pure lift. Even a C-17 would take 8 flights (~40hrs). Plus you have something very useful in and can support (for vshort periods) operations after arriving and can travel where there is no airport and only minimal port facilities (port wall).

Freeing C-130 to move the light/less voluminous stuff that they are good at. Using it as a force multiplier. Given the region NZ is in and what might be needed for any operation, would seem to be something useful to augment airlift capability.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I wonder. Given the type of lifting, would NZ consider a fast ferry (JHSV style) in leiu of say a C130. Moving say 600t/ 200 troops from NZ to Sydney (or Fiji) in say 30hrs. And you could move loads that are incompatible with C-130's. From Sydney they could be flown via C-17 globally (or leased aircraft), or in the case of Fiji, you have something that could support operations for 24-48 hrs until a LHD or other ships arrived, then fall back to intra-theater support operations. Also useful for patrol, humanitarian and ASW with useful helo support.

A C-130 to move 600t would take ~ 4hr + 4hr each flight and need 30 flights. 240 hrs and at much greater expense. 1 JHSV could do the work of 8+ C-130 in pure lift. Even a C-17 would take 8 flights (~40hrs). Plus you have something very useful in and can support (for vshort periods) operations after arriving and can travel where there is no airport and only minimal port facilities (port wall).

Freeing C-130 to move the light/less voluminous stuff that they are good at. Using it as a force multiplier. Given the region NZ is in and what might be needed for any operation, would seem to be something useful to augment airlift capability.

Thought the Navy was looking at a JSS type vessel to replace the Endevour. Something like the Dutch Karel Doorman?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for the comments so far, it is good to see there is a understanding of the problems when you crystal ball gaze into future requirements. However what would be nice to see is some potential solutions based on what you think is the best "bang for buck" to the NZDF based on your own perceptions of what you believe is required. From this I believe there will be quality debate on what suggestions have merit and what is just wishful thinking as advantages & disadvantages are discussed.

For example,

FAMC - Five C-130J & Two C-17
FASC - Four P-8 & two Tritions

Advantages
Modern mature platforms (P-8 excluded), Compatability with allies, Keeps existing RNZAF C-130 experience, Self Protection Sytems installed, Air to Ground missles, greater load carridge (e.g. NH90), Large worldwide fleet numbers, US based OEMs.

Disadvantages
Expensive both CAPEX & OPEX probably unaffordable, complex ILS, performance issues when operating out of WP, massive Mission Support overheads, mixed & small fleet sizes, new infrastructure (hangars, simulators, mission support). Increased personnel required, does not address VIP Strat transport, ITAR issues, P-8 is still developmental.
OK let's look at specifics in the examples you use and this is my point of view with some logic applied.

First the C130J. As I said earlier the C130 is near the end of it's viable life as a strategic transport in NZ terms. So in reality we have to say that it has a major liability in that there is no room for future platform growth, which for the NZDF is a major issue. We cannot afford to replace whole fleets every 15 or 20 years. Therefore we have to look at platforms that allows that growth, but are not overly large in that they are to large and expensive for us. So on that basis the C17 is excluded, apart from the fact that Boeing are no longer taking new orders for it because production is ceasing. So my suggestion would be five A400M and five or six C295, the ones with the more powerful engines that Airbus are now installing as standard.

With regard to the P8 and the Triton, whilst the Triton would be nice, in reality I don't see NZ buying it because it costs as much can P8, so logically the NZG may prefer spending the money on another P8. That brings me to another point. Quality is also a very good thing and in a NZ context the current NZG has finally realised that cheap can mean not good quality and more expense in the long term. However numbers or should I say quantity also has a quality of its own and never more so than when you have a small force such as the NZDF. We currently have six P3K2 and replacing them with four P8, albeit with greater capability in each aircraft, however degrades the overall capability of the force because you have reduced the force strength by two units. In the military there is a fundamental rule that governs all forces and their ability to generate forces. It is the rule of threes: one unit is always fully operational, the second is in training and low level maintenance, whilst the third is in deep maintenance. This applies to aircraft, soldiers ships etc. Step outside that rule by having a reduced number of units then you have force generation issues that if not dealt with will lead to reduction in capabilities and / or prove to be very expensive in peace time or disastrous in combat. An example of this is the SH2G(NZ) Seasprite saga.

So now it can be seen why quantity is very important quality in a NZ context especially where aircraft, in this instance, are concerned.
 
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Zero Alpha

New Member
I'm not convinced NZ is going to have too many choices for either the transport or the maritime patrol roles.

The C-17 production line closes next year.

The P-8 production line is scheduled to close in 2019. There aren't huge prospects for an export order that will keep the line open for long after that.

The P3K2 aren't scheduled to be retired until approximatley 2025. The Hercules and Boeing fleets are scheduled for retirement between 2018 and 2025.

My short term focus would be to address the short/medium range surveillance and transport gap. The C-295 seems to be the best option around for that space, and I'd be looking for half a dozen airframes, and having the missions systems as modular as possible. I would expect that introducing something like this into service would reduce the workload on the P-3s to push out the fleet life another couple of years, and potentially buy some time for the C-130s too.

In the mean time, we get to see which way the chips fall with both the P-8 and a MPA version of the A400 and make a call then. I'd prefer to replace both the P-3s and Hercs with A400s on a 1 for 1 basis, but there is some developmental risk with a A400 variant and I'd prefer someone else takes it on first.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I'm not convinced NZ is going to have too many choices for either the transport or the maritime patrol roles.

The C-17 production line closes next year.

The P-8 production line is scheduled to close in 2019. There aren't huge prospects for an export order that will keep the line open for long after that.

The P3K2 aren't scheduled to be retired until approximatley 2025. The Hercules and Boeing fleets are scheduled for retirement between 2018 and 2025.

My short term focus would be to address the short/medium range surveillance and transport gap. The C-295 seems to be the best option around for that space, and I'd be looking for half a dozen airframes, and having the missions systems as modular as possible. I would expect that introducing something like this into service would reduce the workload on the P-3s to push out the fleet life another couple of years, and potentially buy some time for the C-130s too.

In the mean time, we get to see which way the chips fall with both the P-8 and a MPA version of the A400 and make a call then. I'd prefer to replace both the P-3s and Hercs with A400s on a 1 for 1 basis, but there is some developmental risk with a A400 variant and I'd prefer someone else takes it on first.
A bit of a quibble, but the P-8 Poseidon production line is the same line Boeing is using to build B737 NG's, and AFAIK Boeing has no plans to stop construction of them anytime soon. Where the P-8 is a little different is that the wings used are from the B737-900, with some hardpoints added, a bomb bay, and windowless fuselage.

Once the airframe itself has been assembled, Boeing takes the airframe to another location in the plant to fit the required mission systems.

That suggests that once P-8 production ends, it should not be particularly difficult to restart product, when compared to a production line which has been completely closed.

Honestly, I would not count C-130J's out for a Kiwi replacement. A very great deal is going to centre on what percentage of airlift missions are required for different distances, and require either more cargo capacity, volume, or range than the C-130 can provide. By the same token, it might well turn out that the primary airlift mission profile is only for perhaps 1-2 pallets, in which case something like the C-130 might be overkill and the C-295 or C-27J would be more appropriate.

What I suspect is that 3-5 A400M's would be appropriate for the longer-ranged lift missions, and/or outsized/heavy cargoes. That I do not feel would be common missions, but occur often enough for the NZDF to find the capability useful. I feel that most of the missions are going to be more along the lines of a tactical airlifter, i.e. moving a few pallets 5,000 - 10,000 kg and much of those missions could be done by a C-295 or C-27J. If that is the case, then perhaps 5-8 such aircraft might be in order. IMO the RNZAF should drop the civilian airliner capability. I can go over why again, but I have mentioned this previously earlier in this thread and the NZDF thread IIRC.

I would like to see the RNZAF get a 2nd tier MPA, both to ease the burdens of the P-3K2 and provide additional capabilities. As NG mentioned quoting Stalin, quantity is a quality all its own. Four P-8's should provide a considerable capability to the NZDF, above what the P-3K2 can do (ignore the altitude pun...) but with less aircraft, there will likely be less availability for mission tasking. This is actually where some of the BAMS UAV develops are supposed to come into play, to provide a wide area ISR resource so that the more limited manned assets can be concentrated on areas of interest. With the significant cost for some of the more capable UAS, a 2nd tier MPA would likely be a better route for NZ to take. Especially if there is some commonality between the airframe of the 2nd tier MPA and either the tactical or strategic airlifter.

-Cheers
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
That suggests that once P-8 production ends, it should not be particularly difficult to restart product, when compared to a production line which has been completely closed.
Yes. Very hard to know what's going to be available. If the line is closed, re-starting it will cost something. No idea what that cost is likely to be.


Honestly, I would not count C-130J's out for a Kiwi replacement.
Neither would I. I would estimate the odds are at least even. Unlike when the J was considered last time, it's now a mature product with the tactical mission system accepted into service (it wasn't when the upgrade or replacement option was looked at).

What I suspect is that 3-5 A400M's would be appropriate for the longer-ranged lift missions, and/or outsized/heavy cargoes.
A reliable source told me that the C17 was evaluated some years ago, and NZDF concluded they only have 500 hours annually where it would be the most appropriate aircraft. Scaling that down a bit, there's probably enough medium-heavy lift to justify at least a couple of A400s on that basis. Deeper analysis would be needed to look at point of original and final destination, rather than sectors flown, to see how the A400 would substitute. I suspect once a capability was acquired, the usage patterns would change. Army is exercising more overseas with equipment now they have easy access to HMNZS Canterbury for instance.

IMO the RNZAF should drop the civilian airliner capability.
I think that depends on what the ultimate use is. I don't think it's justified for VIP or aeromedical, and It's a stretch for cargo. If a civilian-type design is chosen, it needs to have longer legs than the 757. I'd like to see the A330MRTT, if we need an airliner at all. A probe and drogue refuelling capability would be very useful for increasing cargo capacity on whatever air lifter we end up with, and giving a safety margin for operations to places like Antarctica. It could also make a stand-alone contribution to a coalition.

I would like to see the RNZAF get a 2nd tier MPA, both to ease the burdens of the P-3K2 and provide additional capabilities.

I'm not sure what you mean by second tier. Fewer capabilities yes, but not necessarily lower quality for the ones in common.

I am actually pretty skeptical the P-8 is the right aircraft for us at all. High altitude ASW isn't something I know anything about, but I can say that flying a low altitude profile on a long range search and rescue operation doesn't seem like a good idea in a converted airliner. I just don't think there is any reliable fatigue data on what that will do to the life of the airframe. I also don't think throwing a raft out the passenger door is a great idea either. At least the basic Hercules design has a huge amount of engineering data behind it on just how the airframe will fatigue and we know what to expect.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I'm not sure what you mean by second tier. Fewer capabilities yes, but not necessarily lower quality for the ones in common.

I am actually pretty skeptical the P-8 is the right aircraft for us at all. High altitude ASW isn't something I know anything about, but I can say that flying a low altitude profile on a long range search and rescue operation doesn't seem like a good idea in a converted airliner. I just don't think there is any reliable fatigue data on what that will do to the life of the airframe. I also don't think throwing a raft out the passenger door is a great idea either. At least the basic Hercules design has a huge amount of engineering data behind it on just how the airframe will fatigue and we know what to expect.
I mean 2nd tier in terms of overall sensor capability, capacity for sensors, workstations, power generation, etc. The P-8A is a leading (perhaps bleeding) edge MPA/airborne ISR asset, and I suspect it has or will have at some point, the ability to control and perhaps even deploy unmanned vehicles in their patrol sectors. All of these are capabilities that IMO NZ needs to have some of, and some familiarity with.

However, there is also a need for airframes available so that more 'routine' patrolling can be done to monitor the EEZ, SAR, maintaining SA around NZ claims, etc. There should be some sort of combat capability for them, in the event that NZ does find itself facing off against a hostile (either around NZ, in support of allies or deployed forces).

As for the P-8's altitude issues, IIRC there was development work done to allow the P-8 to drop stores (like torpedoes) from high altitude without requiring the aircraft to descend to 12k ft which should help with the wear and tear on the aircraft, and also allow the aircraft to be more fuel efficient since the airframe design is optimized to cruise at 30k+ feet. Plus for a number of the broad area sensors, the greater the altitude, the greater the area scanned.

-Cheers
 

Gracie1234

Well-Known Member
If i remember correctly NZ EEZ surveillance capability does not met the need. We are not able to effectively enforce our EEZ. With increased over fishing and pressure on global resources NZ IMO will need to met this pressure with increased capability. This will require additional funding. Our requirements leads itself to having multiple platforms to achieve this task.
Shorter range with simple sensors such as radar and optics and no weapons, C295, to longer range with high end sensor such as the P8 and BAMS. These will also have the sharp end pure military capabilities.
I feel pretty confident that the pollies will also acknowledge this fact and NZ finances will be in a position that will allow increase funding to be made available. For a long time we could get away with stating we are in a benign environment and we were too far away from problems. But the world is smaller and we are a lot closer to the centre of the world, Asia, now. We can no longer hide. The choice will be to act or let other nations rob us blind in our own back yard. I do not think that is a choice our pollies would make or would they.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
We currently have six P3K2 and replacing them with four P8, albeit with greater capability in each aircraft, however degrades the overall capability of the force because you have reduced the force strength by two units. In the military there is a fundamental rule that governs all forces and their ability to generate forces. It is the rule of threes: one unit is always fully operational, the second is in training and low level maintenance, whilst the third is in deep maintenance. This applies to aircraft, soldiers ships etc. Step outside that rule by having a reduced number of units then you have force generation issues that if not dealt with will lead to reduction in capabilities and / or prove to be very expensive in peace time or disastrous in combat. An example of this is the SH2G(NZ) Seasprite saga.

So now it can be seen why quantity is very important quality in a NZ context especially where aircraft, in this instance, are concerned.
All very good points NG, going from a fleet of 6 P-3K2 down to 4 P-8A's, it will be interesting to see how those numbers would work out, especially when heavy maintenance was required from time to time, (if in fact 4 is the number that is likely to be purchased, depending on funds available).

The parallel that I was thinking of was when the RAAF purchased the original 4 C-17A's and just before the 5th airframe was ordered.

I was reading an article which was saying that in 12mths time (as it was then), that the first of the C-17A's was due to return to the US for a 6 mth heavy maintenance overhaul and that as the first one returned the next would leave for its 6 mth overhaul, and so on, basically it would have meant that the fleet would have been down to three airframes for a period of two years.

So going by the rule of three's (if the 5th and subsequent 6th airframe hadn't been ordered), I would imagine that would have made availability very very tight indeed for that two year period, especially if one had been on deployment O/S, as they appear to do regularly.

I don't know what sort of heavy maintenance schedule applies to a P-8A (as opposed to a C-17A), but I would imagine that after X thousand hours of flight that there would come a time where that long heavy maintenance period would be required, could that be done in NZ (or here in OZ) or would they go back to the US? In any event, I would imagine that if the heavy maintenance period was somewhere between 3-6 mths, it would mean that at various times in their service life the RNZAF would be down to three airframes for periods ranging from 1-2 years if they follow each other as the RAAF's C-17A's did.

I know this is all a 'back of the envelope' calculation by me, but I think that four airframes is cutting it a bit thin, obviously six would be better, but maybe the minimum required is five.
 
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