Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
How much of a drop in speed? Is that due to increased displacement for ballast?

Obviously, I'm told there are no issues :)
I believe (although I could be wrong) that they are now only capable of 26kt although it could actually be lower then that i.e. 24kt, 22kt being the worst I have heard and that is likely an exaggeration. It is due to the extra weight and deeper draft. Range would also be impacted.

I am not associated with that project and what I have heard would be called hearsay in a court of law, it is bloke who knows a bloke who was told something by someone who knows someone on the project etc.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
RAN's aviation training Damen OPV to be built in Vietnam?

Re the Damen 2400 OPV, is the RAN actually getting one, or is it just under consideration?
If we are to get one for training purposes, I would like to see us get half a dozen others to use as genuine offshore patrol vessels.
RAN's aviation training Damen OPV to be built in Vietnam? This is according to this report found here:
https://translate.googleusercontent...08.htm&usg=ALkJrhjF57MUQS6_3NUG8ROsYpzG9524iA

It's like... really???
 

Phd8511

Banned Member
I dont see anything wrong with CAMM or get the argument that the RNZN should buy ESSM instead. CAMM sounds nice and has a small anti-ship ability, targeting FIACs. And besides, its not like the Kiwis will automatically join the RAN and the USN in any conflict.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Same old story, bought to do one job then forced by government procurement decisions to do another. They were designed and built to be patrol frigates supporting a force of six to eight high end general purpose guided missile frigates / destroyers but were forced to step up and fill the shoes of these high end general purpose vessels when successive government failed to order proper replacements.

The first plan was the ANZAC WIP (Warfighting Improvement Program) where it was inteneded to fit AEGIS and SPY-1F to the ANZACs, I am not sure how much was wasted on this before it was realised that it wouldn't fit and would stuff stability. ASMD is the second attempt and appears to be a much more suitable system the trouble is the platform is still over loaded hence the significant reduction in speed. When I look at an ANZAC I can't help but wonder how much better off we would be if they had been followed by a stretched FFG version, with a larger VLS and greater stability margins, to replace the DDGs and FFGs; imagine these larger, more capable ships fitted with ASMD instead of the ANZACs, they would give the AWDs a run for their money, capability wise, while being far more affordable and permitting the RAN to have maintained hull numbers.
Never been a fan of the ANZAC drive train and that combined gear box arrangement is plain odd. IMHO this would have needed quite a bit of change/rejigging/increase in capacity (even from a power generation view) to stretch the thing.

I think the need for growth margin in ship size is a lesson we need to learn as this was a problem with both the ANZAC and FFG7 where margins were minimal and increasing capability (aka ASMD and Seahawk) often resulted in significant structural work and time in the yard (and money).

Cannot give categoric data on stability margins but plating in the quarter deck would have provided a significant boost to buoyant volume and, hence, transverse stability. This, combined with permanent ballast and structure changes appear to have given the margin for the ASMD growth (and again makes the point about designing growth in at the onset).

Looking at stability, the problem is not always the static stability but the dynamic stability which captures such gems as free surface effect. As such where the vessel burns fuel the free surface effect in a fuel tank will increase (the more it can slosh the greater the free surface moment) as the CoG goes up with loss of weight lower in the ship. Empty tanks are less of an issue but even residues can contribute to the overall free surface moment and you still of the loss of CoG.

As a result you can end up with operational limitations. The vessel can be quite stable when full of fuel but can get 'tender' with fuel burn, particularly at the limits of range. As Samoa noted in a previous post not all the ships in the class are the same in this regard due to changes during production run and it appears earlier ships may have less margin.

The 'initial' plans we saw had the extra FC system, harpoon behind the bridge, 16 cells and 2 CIWS ............... the word aspirational comes to mind.

I think the KIWI's are progressing in a manner that suits their needs. CAMM has some advantages (that ESSM may pick up with Block II ...... if funded) and I expect the cost of the the upgrade will be a LOT less than the ASMD and will still be quite capable for self defence. From what I understand the ASMD upgrade on ANZAC is bloody impressive but in a limited budget is this what the RNZN needs.

Any idea on Skipper101's background.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
I believe (although I could be wrong) that they are now only capable of 26kt although it could actually be lower then that i.e. 24kt, 22kt being the worst I have heard and that is likely an exaggeration. It is due to the extra weight and deeper draft. Range would also be impacted.

I am not associated with that project and what I have heard would be called hearsay in a court of law, it is bloke who knows a bloke who was told something by someone who knows someone on the project etc.
Perhaps RAN can further upgrade the ANZAC frigates like what the Kiwi did with their propulsion, etc.

"In 2007, Te Kaha began undergoing a series of major upgrades as part of the four-stage Platform Systems Upgrade (PSU), planning for which started in 2004.[64] The four areas of modification under the PSU were improved stability and compartment configuration changes, overhaul of the propulsion system, installation of a new integrated platform management system (IPMS), and upgrades to onboard environmental control.[64] The stability upgrades were to accommodate predicted increases in displacement as updated equipment was installed on the ships.[64] As part of the modification, the ships' quarterdecks were enclosed, creating space for a gymnasium and improved laundry facilities.[64] Propulsion changes are primarily focused around replacing the TB83 diesel engines with the TB93, providing an additional 1.4 megawatts (1,900 hp) and higher speeds during diesel-only sailing.[64] The IPMS replacement is prompted by the perceived obsolescence of the current system by 2013; as of 2009, tendering for the new system was underway.[64] The environmental control upgrade is intended to improve personnel comfort during deployments to South East Asia, the Middle East, or similar climates, and will use more environmentally friendly products.[64] Each stage of the upgrade is organised to occur simultaneously with ship maintenance dockings, with the first two upgrades being installed during each ship's major maintenance docking in 2009 and 2010 respectively, then the other two upgrades during the next docking in the 2011–2012 period."
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think the KIWI's are progressing in a manner that suits their needs. CAMM has some advantages (that ESSM may pick up with Block II ...... if funded) and I expect the cost of the the upgrade will be a LOT less than the ASMD and will still be quite capable for self defence. From what I understand the ASMD upgrade on ANZAC is bloody impressive but in a limited budget is this what the RNZN needs.

Any idea on Skipper101's background.
That's pretty much been my take - the Kiwis will get something approaching an upgraded Type 23 in the main. When's OSD for them after the upgrade?

I like the ASMD upgrades the Aussies have just done (the radar in particular, I like lots) - but as you say, it's a very invasive upgrade and comes at a price.

Does Australia do any maint on ESSM ? Is there any grounds for the complaint that CAMM is a unique item in the hemisphere and represents a cost issue because of that?

I don't know what Skipper101's background is, but he's been sharply corrected on some USN stuff before by people who know wherof they speak.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
My learned colleagues - help me understand something - I was of the impression that the Kiwi and Australian Anzacs were on their top weight limits and that the Australian upgrades with CEAFAR etc were carefully managed affairs because of this, but I'm dealing with a total doughnut on another forum who insists otherwise.

Someone set me straight on this one please :)
Somewhere on the RAN website I found a news item which included a quote from the project manager or some such (an RAN officer - female), who called the ballasting & other changes needed to cope with the increased top weight a significant bit of engineering. I didn't keep the link, but it's fairly recent & should be findable with Google. That's how I found it.

Can't get more official than that, I'd say, though she didn't go into a lot of detail.

Aha! IIRC I linked to it in a reply to him. Hang on . . .

Here we are - Defence Materiel Organisation - DMO Bulletin

As the ASMD system increases the top weight of each ship, we have had to include some significant ballast and enclose our quarter decks – each of these activities on their own are significant projects.
He's ignoring that & still claiming there's no top weight issue, though.
 

Punta74

Member
Subs and LNG boom

Hi All - long time viewer, finally thought I'd register.

No Military background, just an interest in Australia's Defence.

Apologies if this has been raised, I couldn't locate anywhere.

With Australia's future purchase for up to 12 Submarines, and having read numerous articles over the past few years, particuly stating that one of the reasons for increasing numbers is the protection of Australia's potential 60 Billion LNG trade by 2020.

My Question is - By allocating Defence resourses to "protect" LNG reserves & Trade routes, are these companies subsidising the Submarine purchase in anyway ?

Cheers,
Darren
 

Oberon

Member
Hi All - long time viewer, finally thought I'd register.

No Military background, just an interest in Australia's Defence.

Apologies if this has been raised, I couldn't locate anywhere.

With Australia's future purchase for up to 12 Submarines, and having read numerous articles over the past few years, particuly stating that one of the reasons for increasing numbers is the protection of Australia's potential 60 Billion LNG trade by 2020.

My Question is - By allocating Defence resourses to "protect" LNG reserves & Trade routes, are these companies subsidising the Submarine purchase in anyway ?

Cheers,
Darren
Darren,

Welcome to the forum.

There is no special levy on any Australian individual or corporation to cover defence needs. The cost of defence is allocated from consolidated revenue. Trade and the protection of strategic assets, in private or governments hands, is the concern of all Australians and all taxpayers contribute their share through the tax system.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Darren,

Welcome to the forum.

There is no special levy on any Australian individual or corporation to cover defence needs. The cost of defence is allocated from consolidated revenue. Trade and the protection of strategic assets, in private or governments hands, is the concern of all Australians and all taxpayers contribute their share through the tax system.
It actually makes you wonder if there should be a specific levy, in particular for foreign owned and operated companies that don't pay very much tax in Australia but insist on being protected by the very services they are poaching personnel from.
 

ausklr76

New Member
It actually makes you wonder if there should be a specific levy, in particular for foreign owned and operated companies that don't pay very much tax in Australia but insist on being protected by the very services they are poaching personnel from.
I dont think Gina Reinhart and co. would like that very much? Look what happened to the last government that tried to put a tax on the mining industry.The LNP won alot of votes out of the scare tactics that if you tax the mining industry, foreign investment would dry up. I agree that Australia's natural resources and trade routes need to be protected, I just can't see any government trying to make foreign or Australian companies directly pay for it.

It could also bring up some conflict of interest issues. Say for example the Timor sea gas/oil fields, it is already a bit of a political hot potato. What is to say some company pressures the government to intervene because they pay for it in their extra tax/levies.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It actually makes you wonder if there should be a specific levy, in particular for foreign owned and operated companies that don't pay very much tax in Australia but insist on being protected by the very services they are poaching personnel from.
I'm strongly inclined to think not. One of the principle functions of any navy is the protection of trade routes to the benefit of not just their own nation but of all. Think for example of anti-piracy work off the coast of Africa by nations like Australia without much direct skin in the game. Should we be charging for it? Should the Dutch charge us for protecting 1% of the oil trade there destined to Australia?

Where does this actually end then? Bills from the Chinese for protecting ship loads of washing machines destined for Sydney and shipsloads of coal and iron ore going the other way?

oldsig
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
OPV based helicopter training ship

I have been waiting for some sort of formal announcement on the Damen built aviation training vessel before making comment. I note the Navy magazine (July - Sept 2014 edition) on page 23 states this has been announced. Not my faviorite magazine but I have to admit I missed the announcement itself.

The item makes one important point ...... the vessel is provided by Defence Maritime Services (DMS) though a charter. In short this is a commercial vessel ........ not a warship.
 

Punta74

Member
Darren,

Welcome to the forum.

There is no special levy on any Australian individual or corporation to cover defence needs. The cost of defence is allocated from consolidated revenue. Trade and the protection of strategic assets, in private or governments hands, is the concern of all Australians and all taxpayers contribute their share through the tax system.
Thanks Oberon.

I have one last query that I hope someone can answer, with the current tender and first pass approval on the RANs 2 x Replenishment ships, when is the (RFP) Request for proposal due ?

If requirements dictate, would Navantia potentially offer a variant of the Cantabria similar to the Aegir at 26,000t ?
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I have been waiting for some sort of formal announcement on the Damen built aviation training vessel before making comment. I note the Navy magazine (July - Sept 2014 edition) on page 23 states this has been announced. Not my faviorite magazine but I have to admit I missed the announcement itself.

The item makes one important point ...... the vessel is provided by Defence Maritime Services (DMS) though a charter. In short this is a commercial vessel ........ not a warship.
This has been clear since the original announcement in Singapore some months ago as I understood it. (discussed in this forum as well) It's something of a shame in my opinion, but at least may be a locally visible example of a class of ship that would be a better fit as an OPV than the current combat tinnies.

oldsig
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This has been clear since the original announcement in Singapore some months ago as I understood it. (discussed in this forum as well) It's something of a shame in my opinion, but at least may be a locally visible example of a class of ship that would be a better fit as an OPV than the current combat tinnies.

oldsig
The Janes article offered no specifics on the DMS involvement.

Again being careful not to go beyond what is in the public domain it is reasonable to conclude that the reason the Damen platform was picked will have a lot to do with the fact the ship was designed to commercial spec for helicopter operations.

Also it is important to note the vessel will be based on the 2400 vessel and will not necessarily carry everything that hull does.

When you think about it there is some sense in using a 'chartered' asset based on operating hours as you get what you pay for at a fixed price and this is attractive for training assets, particularly if they can be used for other commercial activities (be they Navy support or otherwise). The submarine rescue vessels also being procured to be operated by DMS (again in the public domain in DMS Scuttlebutt in 2012) are a case in point.

It will certainly give many a chance to look at the Damen designs as you note.
 
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