Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[cdxbow]

I don't want to put a damper on your enthusiasm but this forum is reserved for serious discussion of real defence issues. Its not a forum to promote photo shopped designs of imagined future ships and individuals wish lists, it drives the Moderators nuts.
If we all stick to reality it helps. Naval acquisitions are years in planning, fine tuning and dealing with political cycles, not 5 minute art work.

I have no wish to cause offence. I do understand the difficulty of any government procurement, particularly complex technological systems, and I don't wont to diminish it's importance or difficulty. Some people think visually and it helps them to be able to think about the issues if they can see a picture..

In each case these have been done following on from discussion in the forums, to illustrate some of what has been discussed. The issue of building something other than a Hobart on a Hobart hull to bridge 'the valley of death' is clearly a nonsense, and I hope the picture helps show that. I usually add some ideas, try to work them around a bit, and sometimes even add some humour.

I apologise for the offence and I thus won't post any more pictures.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I apologise for the offence and I thus won't post any more pictures.

It's not an issue about posting pictures per se, it's about trying to ensure that contributions are married to the real time constraints of acquiring the right vessels in the climate and govt constraints of the day.

by all means contribute imagery, but just exercise some caution in case its seen as a wishlist offering etc and excluding some of the realities that come with acquisition as well as service/user reqs....

 

[ngatimozart]

If you are going to propose an Absalon type vessel for the RAN (or RNZN) then why not start with the Absalon hull itself? It's new and has plenty of room for upgrades. The Danes are clever and if you look at their Ivor Huitfeld FFH which is based on the Absalon design it has the trapdoor in the flight deck to enable placement of 20ft ISO containers on the quarterdeck below. I'm very fond of that trick because it's some simple. I'm also like their Stanflex system because of its versatility. With regard to moving radars etc from the ANZACs to their replacements, I know in the RNZNs case the new hardware being installed will be fitted to the replacement vessels, which means one frigate out of commission for a long time, leaving the RNZN a one frigate navy for a very long period of time. I would presume that the RAN will follow a similar line especially after the ASMD upgrade but in a phased replacement they should not have the same issues as the RNZN. I think the T26 would be ideal as long as the poms are open to open architecture and wider versatility than maybe they are traditionally used to. Maybe they could take on board concepts such as those that the Danes have incorporated in their vessels.

 

[Oberon]

So how would an Oz T26 look? I have first illustrated an RN ship, next the 'australianised' version, followed by Canadian & NZ offerings. Because it's all the old empire, I have called it the Commonwealth class.

Added: some of the numbering is incorrect on the items labelled on the RN ship. You can work them out still.

The last is another 'recycled frigate', using mainly the Anzac bits, as done with the Hobart illustrations I posted earlier.

I like the canadianised version! Who said defencetalkers didn't have a sense of humour!

 

[John Fedup]

If you are going to propose an Absalon type vessel for the RAN (or RNZN) then why not start with the Absalon hull itself? It's new and has plenty of room for upgrades. The Danes are clever and if you look at their Ivor Huitfeld FFH which is based on the Absalon design it has the trapdoor in the flight deck to enable placement of 20ft ISO containers on the quarterdeck below. I'm very fond of that trick because it's some simple. I'm also like their Stanflex system because of its versatility. With regard to moving radars etc from the ANZACs to their replacements, I know in the RNZNs case the new hardware being installed will be fitted to the replacement vessels, which means one frigate out of commission for a long time, leaving the RNZN a one frigate navy for a very long period of time. I would presume that the RAN will follow a similar line especially after the ASMD upgrade but in a phased replacement they should not have the same issues as the RNZN. I think the T26 would be ideal as long as the poms are open to open architecture and wider versatility than maybe they are traditionally used to. Maybe they could take on board concepts such as those that the Danes have incorporated in their vessels.

An article appears on the Defence Spending - Military Procurement - Arctic Sovereignty - Canadian Forces - Aerospace Industry - CASR Index - Canadian American Strategic Review - Military Vehicles - Military Aircraft - Armoured Vehicles - CASR Background - In Detail - Modest P site proposing a modified Absalon as a possible future destroyer for the RCN.

 

[StingrayOZ]

An article appears on the Defence Spending - Military Procurement - Arctic Sovereignty - Canadian Forces - Aerospace Industry - CASR Index - Canadian American Strategic Review - Military Vehicles - Military Aircraft - Armoured Vehicles - CASR Background - In Detail - Modest P site proposing a modified Absalon as a possible future destroyer for the RCN.

Well its interesting.

Australia seems to be moving away from a type 26 putting money up on a F100 design based frigate (~$80 million).

Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence – Boosting Australia

I wonder if Canada is still genuinely interested in the type 26. But I don't know if the British really want to link their program to a Canadian program that doesn't really go anywhere. The Canadian amphibious ship project just flat out evaporated in the time it took Australia to spec out, approve, tender, sign off, commence and almost finish the project completely despite multiple change of governments in Australia and a financial crisis.

In Australia there is consensus we don't need delays, we need action. It is quiet clear from what is happening in our region the time to piss around the sides in procurement are over. We need real, low risk, straight forward solutions for today's problems.

Anything fancy/risky is value adding not providing essential capability (ie getting the saab combat system to CEC would be risky but choosing the saab combat doesn't risk the frigates primary role even without CEC). Where as building some fantasy land stealth ship would be risky in all endeavors.

 

[StobieWan]

Canada very publicly disavowed any interest in Type 26 a couple of years back as they were urgently looking at solutions to their ageing fleet and had no interest in a design that didn't even exist. Since then, their ships have gotten a bit older, and they've scraped some earth forth and back in the yards intended to urgently build whatever they choose and nothing else has happened.

Meanwhile Type 26 has plodded on towards becoming a working design so I'm not sure if they'd want to revisit the decision if Type 26 ends up in the water as a working product.

With Australia, we're all a bit surprised as we'd expected a Frigate replacement to be a bit away yet, so this sudden scramble to get something done is a bit of a shock.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Canada very publicly disavowed any interest in Type 26 a couple of years back as they were urgently looking at solutions to their ageing fleet and had no interest in a design that didn't even exist. Since then, their ships have gotten a bit older, and they've scraped some earth forth and back in the yards intended to urgently build whatever they choose and nothing else has happened.

pretty damning when you consider how fast it took for techport yo get built in Adelaide

With Australia, we're all a bit surprised as we'd expected a Frigate replacement to be a bit away yet, so this sudden scramble to get something done is a bit of a shock.

well, nobody wants to talk about it publicly, but chinas behaviour since 2010 has turned everyone (and I mean everyone) in the region into pessimists - the theoretical date for a regional scrap used to be 2030 - some now think it could be as early as 2020, 2025 if generous

 

[weegee]

well, nobody wants to talk about it publicly, but chinas behaviour since 2010 has turned everyone (and I mean everyone) in the region into pessimists - the theoretical date for a regional scrap used to be 2030 - some now think it could be as early as 2020, 2025 if generous

Really? Is China that unbelievably arrogant that they believe that if they keep pushing nobody will push back? Some countries in the region can give China a fairly bloody nose.

 

[aussienscale]

well, nobody wants to talk about it publicly, but chinas behaviour since 2010 has turned everyone (and I mean everyone) in the region into pessimists - the theoretical date for a regional scrap used to be 2030 - some now think it could be as early as 2020, 2025 if generous

Really? Is China that unbelievably arrogant that they believe that if they keep pushing nobody will push back? Some countries in the region can give China a fairly bloody nose.

And some others, NK, might take the op for a few pot shots as well to stir the pot, and join in if things really go pear shaped

 

[StobieWan]

pretty damning when you consider how fast it took for techport yo get built in Adelaide




well, nobody wants to talk about it publicly, but chinas behaviour since 2010 has turned everyone (and I mean everyone) in the region into pessimists - the theoretical date for a regional scrap used to be 2030 - some now think it could be as early as 2020, 2025 if generous

Ah - that puts an interesting complexion on the matter- yes, if you were possibly going toe to toe with a nascent Chinese blue water fleet, you'd want something a bit sharper.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Ah - that puts an interesting complexion on the matter- yes, if you were possibly going toe to toe with a nascent Chinese blue water fleet, you'd want something a bit sharper.

the fastest growing acquisitions in the PACRIM are subs, and the largest numbers of subs are now in the PACRIM - basically most countries in territorial dispute with china are buying subs - the few that aren't buying or already equipped are modernising their skimmer fleets

there are also more looking at getting LHA's/LHD's for expeditionary (and I suspect ASW flag) work

 

[aussienscale]

the fastest growing acquisitions in the PACRIM are subs, and the largest numbers of subs are now in the PACRIM - basically most countries in territorial dispute with china are buying subs - the few that aren't buying or already equipped are modernising their skimmer fleets

there are also more looking at getting LHA's/LHD's for expeditionary (and I suspect ASW flag) work

There was several articles on sub acquisitions a couple of years ago and at that time it put the international submarine market over the next 25 years at 250-300B, of which, IIRC, up to 200-250B was expected in the Pacrim region !

Not sure if that is still the same, but speaks volumes I think

Cheers

 

[weegee]

Rimpac

I came along this article this morning.
Air of excitement as Success departs for RIMPAC | Navy Daily

I was surprised to see that only HMAS Success and HMAS Sheean were heading over to Rimpac for next month's activities? No frigates going why is that? I would have thought that Rimpac would have been a perfect time to put HMAS Perth through some extensive scenarios with partner nations to see how the mods really compare in a real world activities.

 

[Milne Bay]

I came along this article this morning.
Air of excitement as Success departs for RIMPAC | Navy Daily

I was surprised to see that only HMAS Success and HMAS Sheean were heading over to Rimpac for next month's activities? No frigates going why is that? I would have thought that Rimpac would have been a perfect time to put HMAS Perth through some extensive scenarios with partner nations to see how the mods really compare in a real world activities.

AFAIK, HMAS Perth has already exercised with its new suites and the verdict was very good indeed.
There are several frigates in various stages of upgrade ATM and a couple going to and from MEO (I think)
Given other commitments and the working up of HMAS Canberra, I think that the RAN is a bit skinny for the time being.
MB

 

[Gordon Branch]

HMAS PERTH participated in RIMPAC 2012 where she won the Gunnery Prize.

HMAS Perth (III) wins gunnery prize at RIMPAC 2012 | Royal Australian Navy

 

[weegee]

AFAIK, HMAS Perth has already exercised with its new suites and the verdict was very good indeed.
There are several frigates in various stages of upgrade ATM and a couple going to and from MEO (I think)
Given other commitments and the working up of HMAS Canberra, I think that the RAN is a bit skinny for the time being.
MB

Ok thanks guys I wasn't aware that she was post mod active at the last Rimpac (how time fly's huh?)
The only thing I ever really heard was how successful her testing went at the missile test range over near Hawaii, it now occurs to me that it was probably around the same time haha.

 

[aussienscale]

I came along this article this morning.
Air of excitement as Success departs for RIMPAC | Navy Daily

I was surprised to see that only HMAS Success and HMAS Sheean were heading over to Rimpac for next month's activities? No frigates going why is that? I would have thought that Rimpac would have been a perfect time to put HMAS Perth through some extensive scenarios with partner nations to see how the mods really compare in a real world activities.

I think you will find that as was mentioned in the RAAF Thread re Red Flag that it would be more about the dollars at the moment too

 

[ASSAIL]

Its good to have HMAS Arunta back after a very long time of extended readiness and ASMD upgrade.
Now that we have 6 Anzacs operating and 2 in upgrade we once again may have a spare unit to send to RIMPAC in 2016

https://twitter.com/CN_Australia/status/479712154887540736/photo/1

Mind you, if we had an OCV a FFH/G would not be required for OP Resolute

 

[John Fedup]

Well its interesting.

Australia seems to be moving away from a type 26 putting money up on a F100 design based frigate (~$80 million).

Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence – Boosting Australia

I wonder if Canada is still genuinely interested in the type 26. But I don't know if the British really want to link their program to a Canadian program that doesn't really go anywhere. The Canadian amphibious ship project just flat out evaporated in the time it took Australia to spec out, approve, tender, sign off, commence and almost finish the project completely despite multiple change of governments in Australia and a financial crisis.

In Australia there is consensus we don't need delays, we need action. It is quiet clear from what is happening in our region the time to piss around the sides in procurement are over. We need real, low risk, straight forward solutions for today's problems.

Anything fancy/risky is value adding not providing essential capability (ie getting the saab combat system to CEC would be risky but choosing the saab combat doesn't risk the frigates primary role even without CEC). Where as building some fantasy land stealth ship would be risky in all endeavors.

As others have said, Canada did indeed say no to the Type 26 because it was a design in progress and a proven design was desired. Needless to say the Type 26 progress has surpassed the progress of our non-functional defence procurement ministry. Australia, considering the region's volatility, can not afford to dick around with defence like Canada does.