NZDF General discussion thread

[Volkodav]

The issue with the ANZAC in the RAN was it was initially procured as a Tier 2 patrol frigate to serve along side Tier 1 DDGs and FFGs and Tier 3 corvettes but due to government decisions it was forced to fill most of the missions envisaged for the three tiers on its own. Initially there was the ANZAC WIP (Warfighting Improvement Program) that looked at shoehorning AEGIS and SPY into the ANZACs, too heave too much volume, too little return on investment and then the ANZAC ASMD which is now incorporating CEAFAR etc.

In NZs case the issue is even simpler, they planned for four hulls and got two. Four would have been fine but with only two the question arises would they have been better off spending slightly more on a pair of more capable platforms.

The ANZAC is not a bad ship, it is just not being used as intended.

As an aside just imagine ASMD being incorporated in a Kidd Class DDG, a RAN FFG or a Dutch M Class frigate or a UK Type 23.

 

[RegR]

Cheers guys, seen, Aus expecting them do do more with less operational wise and NZ the same but numbers wise (I think NZ will do this with future assets as well not just the frigates).

I guess it is in our nature to expect the best from everything with least effort and it all comes down to how much money govt is willing to throw at it at the end of the day otherwise maybe more definitive roles need to be set and adhered to IOT avoid wasted or stretched resources.

Hopefully all this will be avoided and remedied with the new generation replacements, we've got time but do we have commitment?

 

[ngatimozart]

ANZACs with CEAFAR are a potent vessel - there are a few who now think that a CEAFAR ANZAC should pick up the AWD role as in some areas they are regarded as superior

At a rough guess, would it be the cost to upgrade the RNZN ANZACs to CEAFAR now and then transfer the CEAFAR to their replacement?

 

[swerve]

We would never be going it alone, we'd always be part of a coaliation, a big offshore patrol boat would have the legs, how often has naval artillary support been needed by NZ, you can always add CIWS to a patrol boat. A big patrol boat or even a Corvette would do the job for us and enable us to have more hulls on the water.

The Patrol Frigate version of the Legend Class Cutters look like a cost effective platform, around 500m a pop, we could have 3-4 at the price....

It's a capable platform. It lacks the weapons & sensors of the ANZACs.. Unless the intention is to transfer across weapons & other equipment from the ANZACs (of which NZ only has two sets), upgrading them to the same fighting abilities would considerably increase the price, & therefore adversely affect the cost-effectiveness. And they aren't cheap: the USCG cutter version (i.e. without warship bells & whistles) cost US$650mn each for the first six. The sixth cost US$735mn. Note that this is for a ship with no missiles, & a 1990s-vintage radar the manufacturer advertises as suitable for small ships up to the size of a corvette, etc.

 

[StobieWan]

You could definitely get more for less money - the Legend has really long legs but you can get a Eurofrigate for $600m easy.
FREMM for instance ...

Type 26 would be in that area or a bit less depending on spec.

 

[old faithful]

Hmmmm, Kiwi,s operating FREMM,s.....HMNZS Rainbow Warrior?
I cant see the Kiwi,s operating a French warship, however, I would love to see them operating 3 capable frigates at least, in the future. Considering they are planning their future force as amphib all arms, saying that they'll never be going it alone is a cop out. The NZ govt owes it to their force to protect it whilst deploying the best they can, from air, surface and sub surface threats. Explain to the nation why they lost 1/3 of their entire armed forces to a missile attack, " oh, the yanks/Aussies or Poms were responsible for air defence, not us, we dont have anything that can do it" , is mad.

 

[t68]

Considering they are planning their future force as amphib all arms, saying that they'll never be going it alone is a cop out. The NZ govt owes it to their force to protect it whilst deploying the best they can, from air, surface and sub surface threats. Explain to the nation why they lost 1/3 of their entire armed forces to a missile attack, " oh, the yanks/Aussies or Poms were responsible for air defence, not us, we dont have anything that can do it" , is mad.

Yep agree 100% it is the governments duty of care to give its members with the best available equipment if can afford as their are no second chances

 

[RegR]

Hmmmm, Kiwi,s operating FREMM,s.....HMNZS Rainbow Warrior?
I cant see the Kiwi,s operating a French warship, however, I would love to see them operating 3 capable frigates at least, in the future. Considering they are planning their future force as amphib all arms, saying that they'll never be going it alone is a cop out. The NZ govt owes it to their force to protect it whilst deploying the best they can, from air, surface and sub surface threats. Explain to the nation why they lost 1/3 of their entire armed forces to a missile attack, " oh, the yanks/Aussies or Poms were responsible for air defence, not us, we dont have anything that can do it" , is mad.

Agreed, and that goes for all the services, enough on here seem to be in the mindset that we can leave certain aspects of our defence up to our allies so imagine what govt is thinking. To a certain point this is true out of nescessity, funding and ability, however politicians will in turn use and sell this to joe public and it will become the norm for even the more achievable capabilities we should be maintaining ourselves. Defence is easy to cut, difficult to maintain but even harder to bring up to standard once degraded enough.

 

[KiwiRob]

Hmmmm, Kiwi,s operating FREMM,s.....HMNZS Rainbow Warrior?
I cant see the Kiwi,s operating a French warship,

NZ could always buy Italian FREMMS

 

[MrConservative]

NZ could always buy Italian FREMMS

or we could really go for the jugular and get Aizuki Class DD19's ....

or maybe not at a billion dollars at a pop ...

 

[ngatimozart]

or we could really go for the jugular and get Aizuki Class DD19's ....

or maybe not at a billion dollars at a pop ...

Nah not big enough. Go Hyūga class - bound to cause more than a few coronaries in treasury and the greenies & other lefties

 

[Volkodav]

Nah not big enough. Go Hyūga class - bound to cause more than a few coronaries in treasury and the greenies & other lefties

Just buy it without out guns or missiles and all is good, in fact if you painted it white with red crosses on it you could use budget share from foreign affairs and health and keep it off the defence book s all together.

 

[Joe Black]

On a serious note, I think RNZN could consider replacing HMNZS Canterbury with the Endurance class LPD designed by Singapore Technology Marine. The would get a great LPD with similar spec and size, and arguably better capability for what they paid for HMNZS Canterbury... ok maybe for a little bit more....

 

[Volkodav]

Just imagine if NZ had decided to buy a modernised Majestic or even Hermes class carrier instead of the Dido Class cruisers from the UK post WWII as the centre piece of their fleet? It was apparently on the cards at one point as there were actually far more experienced NZ naval aviators than Australian as NZ was a major contributor to the British Pacific Fleet and the RN FAA in general.

Would a combined RNZAF / RNZN FAA ACF have been as easy to do away with?

A bit of an interesting, if completely off the track, concept to play around with. A single carrier and a shared ACF between the services. A pair of high end escorts and another pair of intermediate ones as well as a fleet tanker, not unaffordable or unsustainable. Replaced with an Invincible, SCS, or Garibaldi in the 80s or if it had been a Hermes it could still be soldiering on to be replaced by a Cavour or modified Hyuga type now.

I wonder if it could have worked, cost wise vs the cruisers that were in service instead.

 

[t68]

Just imagine if NZ had decided to buy a modernised Majestic or even Hermes class carrier instead of the Dido Class cruisers from the UK post WWII as the centre piece of their fleet? It was apparently on the cards at one point as there were actually far more experienced NZ naval aviators than Australian as NZ was a major contributor to the British Pacific Fleet and the RN FAA in general.

Would a combined RNZAF / RNZN FAA ACF have been as easy to do away with?

A bit of an interesting, if completely off the track, concept to play around with. A single carrier and a shared ACF between the services. A pair of high end escorts and another pair of intermediate ones as well as a fleet tanker, not unaffordable or unsustainable. Replaced with an Invincible, SCS, or Garibaldi in the 80s or if it had been a Hermes it could still be soldiering on to be replaced by a Cavour or modified Hyuga type now.

I wonder if it could have worked, cost wise vs the cruisers that were in service instead.

I have often wondered about something like that between Aus/NZ if RAN were to get a 2x QEC would an Anzac Squadron be doable from a political sense after all NZ could contribute aircraft as well as pers

 

[ngatimozart]

I have often wondered about something like that between Aus/NZ if RAN were to get a 2x QEC would an Anzac Squadron be doable from a political sense after all NZ could contribute aircraft as well as pers

QEC carriers out of question and context. To expensive.

In a hypothetical sense if the ADF & NZDF were to have a carrier variant of the Canberra Class LHDs built then it could be possible. The aircraft would have to be F35B with, IMO V22 Osprey as COD and AEW (US company developing bolt on AEW using AESA capability to give 360 degree coverage) it has the range and speed, NH90 as utility and an AW109 as Captains gig. Would have to be tri service manning from both countries and locked in ring fenced funding over minimum 20 year period with annual increments for inflation etc., from both countries. Personally I think that type of capability would tie up both the RNZN and RAN at the expense of existing and potential other capabilities and could be an anchor around their necks. It would also potentially absorb money from existing and potential ADF and NZDF capabilities. Like I said it's possible but I strongly believe it isn't feasible in the current political and fiscal climate, if ever.

 

[t68]

QEC carriers out of question and context. To expensive.

In a hypothetical sense if the ADF & NZDF were to have a carrier variant of the Canberra Class LHDs built then it could be possible. The aircraft would have to be F35B with, IMO V22 Osprey as COD and AEW (US company developing bolt on AEW using AESA capability to give 360 degree coverage) it has the range and speed, NH90 as utility and an AW109 as Captains gig. Would have to be tri service manning from both countries and locked in ring fenced funding over minimum 20 year period with annual increments for inflation etc., from both countries. Personally I think that type of capability would tie up both the RNZN and RAN at the expense of existing and potential other capabilities and could be an anchor around their necks. It would also potentially absorb money from existing and potential ADF and NZDF capabilities. Like I said it's possible but I strongly believe it isn't feasible in the current political and fiscal climate, if ever.

The political angle in both countries put it out of contention but disagree on your choice of platform, if its going to be a dual hat with each contributing to the manning and a JCA you may aswell get more bang for your $.

We are a bit different to the UK on how they intend to use the QE/ POW it's going to be their strike carrier and Amphiboius Assult, we don't need the ship to do that i was actually advocating something that will bring a meaningfull contribution in peace as well as conflict.

When at a reduced manned level it should be 18xF/A-18F 4x E/A-18G 3x E2D Hawkeye 4/6x MH-60R depending on the situation this can be bring it up full strength of 36x F/A-18F 6x E/A-18G plus the supporting aircraft mentioned above.

For this to work it needs to be along the lines of the UK JCA between us each having 2Squadrons of 18 aircraft each plus support aircraft the carrier should be designed from the outset which was from memory the QEC was to be 300m long and should have redundancy built in with twin bow and waist cats or the same size as USS Forrestal but with the manning of QEC

You could also subtract the Growler and use the S3Viking and bring her more into the AsW fold but would rather keep the the G

 

[Volkodav]

It seems a huge leap from where the RNZN is today but if you took WWII and the British Pacific Fleet as the start point with the hot transfer of a Colossus class carrier as the start point followed by that ships replacement with a Modernised Majestic or Centaur post Korea or even a Modernised Hermes in the early 60s instead of the trio of Didos they had instead that would have been an entirely different base for the fleet to have been built on.

 

[t68]

It seems a huge leap from where the RNZN is today but if you took WWII and the British Pacific Fleet as the start point with the hot transfer of a Colossus class carrier as the start point followed by that ships replacement with a Modernised Majestic or Centaur post Korea or even a Modernised Hermes in the early 60s instead of the trio of Didos they had instead that would have been an entirely different base for the fleet to have been built on.

The same could be said of the RAN if we built the cat&trap Essex class carrier to replace Melbourne. Ah the mind can run wild think of all the only what if's.

 

[MrConservative]

It seems a huge leap from where the RNZN is today but if you took WWII and the British Pacific Fleet as the start point with the hot transfer of a Colossus class carrier as the start point followed by that ships replacement with a Modernised Majestic or Centaur post Korea or even a Modernised Hermes in the early 60s instead of the trio of Didos they had instead that would have been an entirely different base for the fleet to have been built on.

Volk I understand that the NZ Govt was sounded out after the war about a mothballled Colossus Class along with the other ''Dominions''. They bit and we didn't. We went with running 2 Crusiers and 6 Loch Class Frigates instead as the no doubt the operating costs of even a small carrier and Fleet Air Arm were far too high. In those days the late 1940s to1960s the Army and the RNZAF were stronger politically and regarded as the real Kiwi services and would have stopped such nonsense. The Airforce would have seen encroachment on its Jet plans and the Army in those Cold War days was structured around a deployable Division. Where as the RNZN had few NZ born officers above Lt Cdr. Many senior officers were RN on loan and though very Posh - they were not a real part of the 1950s NZ establishment of ex WW2 senior Air and Army officers, top Civil Servants and Politicans - thus not the networks and not the influence. For example we did not get our first Kiwi born CDRE until 1959 and our first CNS at RADM until 1963 and VADM until 1965 and not until the late 1960s that all of the Naval Board were all Kiwi. Incidently the last 2 RNZN Cruisers the Royalist and Black Prince were not really wanted by the Naval Board and Government at the time. The NZ Govt were very pressured by the Eden Government to take the Royalist in 1956, which in a way harmed the steady re-equiping of the RNZN in the 1960s. They were keen to get in on the early Type 12 Whitby Class frigates to replace both the six Loch Class and the two Cruisers which eventually happened though in less numbers in the 1960s. However in those days Whitehall had huge influence over NZ as the UK was virtually our only shopfront with respect to trade. In some ways with a Treasury then flush with cash one could imagine a RNZN Frigate Squadron of six Type 12s from the late 1950s and not the huge cost of keeping a Cruiser at sea for a decade..