NZDF General discussion thread

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Hi Guys!

Don't know if any of you have had a look at the Australian Aviation website recently, there is an article about the new Chief of the RNZAF, comments with the usual criticism of the lack of a NZ air combat force and low levels of defence spending:

New RNZAF chief takes the reins | Australian Aviation


Anyway, if you see my comments, I've been doing my best to support you guys!!

Cheers,
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hi Guys!

Don't know if any of you have had a look at the Australian Aviation website recently, there is an article about the new Chief of the RNZAF, comments with the usual criticism of the lack of a NZ air combat force and low levels of defence spending:

New RNZAF chief takes the reins | Australian Aviation


Anyway, if you see my comments, I've been doing my best to support you guys!!

Cheers,
Gidday John, thanks for the pointer. Interesting discussion that and I couldn't resist putting my 1 cents worth in. I did see the article headline yesterday but hadn't read it or the comments as saw an article on NZDF site earlier. Anyway as usual you made some very good points on Au Av and appreciate the support for the kiwi side.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
Funding increase - context

It's important to put the additional funding allocation in to perspective.

The 100.9M additional in FY2014/15 isn't a lot for spending on a major project. For day to day costs though, it is a reasonable injection.

For comparison, some similar costs from the FY13/14 budget are below:

Naval Helicopter Force $86.5M
Naval Support Forces $99M
Offshore Patrol Forces $66.7M
Engineers $80M
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
It's important to put the additional funding allocation in to perspective.

The 100.9M additional in FY2014/15 isn't a lot for spending on a major project. For day to day costs though, it is a reasonable injection.

For comparison, some similar costs from the FY13/14 budget are below:

Naval Helicopter Force $86.5M
Naval Support Forces $99M
Offshore Patrol Forces $66.7M
Engineers $80M
ZA
Are those annual operating costs (wages, fuel, spares etc)?

BTW, great post in the RNZAF thread a few days ago
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Hi Guys!

Don't know if any of you have had a look at the Australian Aviation website recently, there is an article about the new Chief of the RNZAF, comments with the usual criticism of the lack of a NZ air combat force and low levels of defence spending:

New RNZAF chief takes the reins | Australian Aviation


Anyway, if you see my comments, I've been doing my best to support you guys!!

Cheers,
Noted with thanks, JN.

I've always been a bit mystified by the claims and counter-claims around 'freeloading'.
In a civilian context, no one claims that Australia is freeloading off NZ's much greater investment in earthquake preparedness, or that NZ is freeloading off Australia in bushfire prevention.
Different countries, different threats, and hence different priorities.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
ZA
Are those annual operating costs (wages, fuel, spares etc)?

BTW, great post in the RNZAF thread a few days ago
That's everything (including depreciation and other financial instruments). Wages, food, accommodation, repairs, munitions, exercises, etc. Data sourced from Vote Defence Force and NZDF Output Plan FY13/14.


Re: other post. Thanks. I'll be writing something on airborne ISR at some point.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Ngati

My mistake over the $2 billion vs. $4 billion. Just a typo - what's a couple of billion between friends.

I've been looking at the 2011 Capability Plan rather than the 2008 LTDP, although quite a bit of material was carried over from one to the other.

Re trucks, a split civilian/military buy is clearly signalled in 2011. We have got the military component from MAN. My guess is the civilian component (Hino?) is some way off, as they can probably flog the healthier half of the existing Unimog fleet for a few more years.

Re the defensive/offensive capabilities of the P3C, I haven't heard of any movement on these. If the gov't still wanted them, hard to believe they couldn't have been integrated into the refit just concluded. It seems crazy to have much of the fleet laid up for years on end, then put them back into re-fit as soon as they emerge.

No idea about the torpedoes - perhaps they have tracked down some low-mileage examples in a US storeroom somewhere? Only reference in the recent upgrade announcement was to anti-torpedo measures. Suggests to me they have found a solution.

I still feel that the 2020s are going to be the decade when the air force gets most of the spending. Based on the price Australia paid, even 4 Poseidons isn't going to leave any change from 2 billion. 4-5 A400s will run to significantly over $1 billion (at best). And that simply isn't going to leave room for much else. Hence, I think there is a bit of a scramble to knock off some of the smaller items on the shopping list before the 2020s when the Orion/Herc replacements won't be able to be deferred any longer.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
That's everything (including depreciation and other financial instruments). Wages, food, accommodation, repairs, munitions, exercises, etc. Data sourced from Vote Defence Force and NZDF Output Plan FY13/14.


Re: other post. Thanks. I'll be writing something on airborne ISR at some point.
Great, thanks.

Looking forward to your views on ISR.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Ngati
Re the defensive/offensive capabilities of the P3C, I haven't heard of any movement on these. If the gov't still wanted them, hard to believe they couldn't have been integrated into the refit just concluded. It seems crazy to have much of the fleet laid up for years on end, then put them back into re-fit as soon as they emerge.
I recall reading something once about wiring the P3 wings for ordinance delivery as part of an earlier re-winging. For whatever reason, the decision was made not to wire the new wings for weapons. Therefore, intergrating wing moundetd missiles on the P3's now would cost a lot more. Not sure what the bombay is able to accomodate in terms of anti-ship. Maybe someone with more knowledge can confirm
Cheers
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
I recall reading something once about wiring the P3 wings for ordinance delivery as part of an earlier re-winging. For whatever reason, the decision was made not to wire the new wings for weapons. Therefore, intergrating wing moundetd missiles on the P3's now would cost a lot more. Not sure what the bombay is able to accomodate in terms of anti-ship. Maybe someone with more knowledge can confirm
Cheers
The bay is too small for Harpoon.

If you want to drop a guided weapon, a JDAM conversion would almost certainly be most cost effective.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I recall reading something once about wiring the P3 wings for ordinance delivery as part of an earlier re-winging. For whatever reason, the decision was made not to wire the new wings for weapons. Therefore, intergrating wing moundetd missiles on the P3's now would cost a lot more. Not sure what the bombay is able to accomodate in terms of anti-ship. Maybe someone with more knowledge can confirm
Cheers
From what I recall, the P-3K wings did have the wiring for ordnance after the re-winging, but the decision had been not to upgrade the wiring and connections for MIL-STD-1760, which means any of the modern PGM's cannot be used.

IMO the decision to not have the wings wired for -1760 leaves the P-3K's virtually unable to do anything other than surveillance. What I am not certain of, is whether the decision to have the Kiwi Orions so limited was based off ideology, or a failure by Gov't/the bean counters to see value in spending just a little bit more money, to have a much wider range of options available in the Orions.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Better bring you guys back to a previous posting, in which it was stated that:

"The modification required to enable the P-3K to launch anti-ship missiles is relatively straightforward and could be done during routine maintenance once the upgraded sensors and mission system are installed."

The ADM article suggests Defence has various follow on projects once the P-3K2 mission system/surface-overland sensor upgrade project is complete (without looking up the details I think the last aircraft is being worked on). I suppose in a NZ context that's simply the way things work with the bean counters in light of other defence project set backs i.e. one project at a time. But the P-3K2 mission system/sensor upgrade project appears to have been a success, albeit after delayed by a number of years. So I guess as a result of the initial mission system project delays, the follow on projects have had to wait.

The follow on projects noted are an Electronic Warfare Self-Protection (EWSP) systems and a basic anti-ship strike capability.

We already know (it has been reported on and discussed here last year) that the NZDF is already working on a business case for an ASW upgrade (and know from the Timing is Everything study (ANU Press) that the upgraded mission systems/sensors will allow for easy integration of the ASW components. So not all doom and gloom, in fact things are looking good, although obviously dependant on funding priorities :)

ADM: Orion upgrade gets the go-ahead

ADM: NZ projects approach spending peak
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Better bring you guys back to a previous posting, in which it was stated that:

"The modification required to enable the P-3K to launch anti-ship missiles is relatively straightforward and could be done during routine maintenance once the upgraded sensors and mission system are installed."

The ADM article suggests Defence has various follow on projects once the P-3K2 mission system/surface-overland sensor upgrade project is complete (without looking up the details I think the last aircraft is being worked on). I suppose in a NZ context that's simply the way things work with the bean counters in light of other defence project set backs i.e. one project at a time. But the P-3K2 mission system/sensor upgrade project appears to have been a success, albeit after delayed by a number of years. So I guess as a result of the initial mission system project delays, the follow on projects have had to wait.

The follow on projects noted are an Electronic Warfare Self-Protection (EWSP) systems and a basic anti-ship strike capability.

We already know (it has been reported on and discussed here last year) that the NZDF is already working on a business case for an ASW upgrade (and know from the Timing is Everything study (ANU Press) that the upgraded mission systems/sensors will allow for easy integration of the ASW components. So not all doom and gloom, in fact things are looking good, although obviously dependant on funding priorities :)

ADM: Orion upgrade gets the go-ahead

ADM: NZ projects approach spending peak
Let us just say that I the ADM article somewhat... suspect. I dug up this old post by Magoo from 2007 which touches on the topic of the P-3K2 upgrade which was getting underway at the time.

-Cheers
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the links. yes those article are encouraging. Good to see the figures for money put aside. But on the other hand, they were both published in 2008... and we haven't heard anything yet,
The articles appear to have been written 2006/2007 (2008 appears to be when they went online) and presumably any (projected) money to be "put aside" would have been in line with the then Labour Govt's LTDP's support and thinking (and from which NM quoted from on the previous page).

I would say, not withstanding Defence wanting the EWSP and anti-ship missiles at some point in time, the change of Govt (and their resultant DCP (forget the LTDP to some extent - it reflects the previous Govt's priority view from 2002-2008)) has seen priorities change. Unlike the previous Govt's antipathy to funding an underwater sensor/ASW upgrade, under the current Govt (like they were when last in power) are not adverse to Defence presenting a business case to seek funding for an ASW upgrade.

Which in the scheme of things seems entirely logical, in that NZDF in transforming the P-3 from a MPA platform to an Airborne Surveillance and Response Force, the priority would have to be to continue with the sensor upgrades (underwater sensor/ASW) to ensure the aircraft are totally relevant in a modern Coalition ISR context (remember in a modern Coalition environment, a RNZAF Orion would be one of many allied Orion types scanning an area of interest, the RNZAF Orion could always call upon another Coalition asset to prosecute a target, be that another airborne asset including fast air or a naval vessel etc. Mind you if a shooting war was on the horizon the Govt would fast-track any armament/EWSP upgrades anyway etc). But at this point in time, if that means delaying the anti-ship missile upgrade to allow the underwater sensor/ASW (then EWSP) upgrades to proceed next then so be it.

Remember these won't progress (be funded) until the current mission system/sensor upgrades are completed and in service, which has more or less been achieved. So roll on next project (underwater sensor upgrades etc).

Let us just say that I the ADM article somewhat... suspect. I dug up this old post by Magoo from 2007 which touches on the topic of the P-3K2 upgrade which was getting underway at the time.

-Cheers
Granted the ADM article doesn't quote exactly who said that anti-ship missile modifications would be relatively straightforward (eg if Defence said that then that statement is credible OTOH if a journo said that ... well sure there's potentially room for some doubt) but then again (as per Magoos comments you linked to) surely if the P-3's were re-winged even if in Korea they would have to be following LM's blue-prints so to speak, perhaps there was provision to accommodate the databus wiring in the future (or some of the wiring is in place), after all the RNZAF have been keen on acquiring anti-ship missiles for many years prior to the re-winging, I wouldn't be surprised if some allowances were made at the time etc. Also Magoo suggests "it isn't an issue" (unless he meant something else and it was lost in translation when he wrote his comments). Also interesting is NZLAVs comments above Magoos in which he quoted RNZAF sources suggesting an anti-ship missile is in the (then) pipeline. So I am lead to believe it is "relatively straightforward", it's just a matter of when i.e.priorities :)
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
From what I recall, the P-3K wings did have the wiring for ordnance after the re-winging, but the decision had been not to upgrade the wiring and connections for MIL-STD-1760, which means any of the modern PGM's cannot be used.

IMO the decision to not have the wings wired for -1760 leaves the P-3K's virtually unable to do anything other than surveillance. What I am not certain of, is whether the decision to have the Kiwi Orions so limited was based off ideology, or a failure by Gov't/the bean counters to see value in spending just a little bit more money, to have a much wider range of options available in the Orions.
The rewiring of the P-3's was proposed and it was not going to cost a hell of a lot extra to intergrate this into the project. This option was not signed off at the political level.

Anyhow it was all simply based off a prevailing ideology at that time about the role of the RNZAF in creating a sustainable defence force to meet New Zealand's needs. .....the RNZAF was not to have a weapons capability.

If there is a change of government the defence policy will look more like this than the current Government. Please enjoy'

https://www.greens.org.nz/policy/summary/defence

The current Labour opposition has essentially a similar defence outlook though maybe not culling the Frigates or establishing a training unit to educate people in non violence resistance techniques if NZ comes under attack.
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Whilst we are on the topic of Maritime ISR I should chip with some comments concerning the potentiality of a NZDF Triton capability. With a DWP to come and I understand the opportunity to make submissions later in the year, the context of this may be helpful.

The US DoD are factoring that the average operational utilization per MQ-4C Triton is between 2200 - 2500 flight hours per annum (90 sorties up to 28 hours) and that the ideal number of aircraft per MOB (Main Operating Base) and Forward Operating Base (FOB) is 4 airframes. They consider that the type will have a service life of up to 20-25 years or 51000 hours whatever comes first. ( The IOC FY 2016 examples are expected to provide service until FY 2039) In comparison the USN are using their current P-8A’s for 620 flight hours per year thus with respect to the ISR role there is a huge margin in the Tritons favour though the P-8 utilisation rate is to rise as the platform matures into operations. The aging P-3 aircraft in USN hands are now doing slightly under 400 hours per annum. Our P-3 fleet of 6 has over time averaged around 3000 hours per annum (fluctuations due to depot servicing, upgrades, tight budgets allocations yada yada yada). .

The envisaged operating cost per Triton flight hour is something I do not have full details on. However, I would hazard a guess that it would likely be cheaper than a P3K2 or P-8. Nevertheless the US DoD puts the unit operating cost per each Triton platform as US17m per annum. This includes depot maintenance and servicing, spares, support systems, and baseline Sqd costs such as crew, admin and fuel. It does not include purchase price divisable by length of service life. A back of the envelope calculation works this out to be US$6800 per hour if the platform is utilised to its envisaged operating potential of conducting 90 sorties each year fulfilling 2500 hours of ISR. If NZ was to operate a fleet of 3 Tritons at full operating capacity providing 7500 hours that would essentially be US153m per annum. For context the A4-K cost us NZ$150m in its last full year of operation. The total ACF spend of 2, 14 and 75 Sqds was NZ$210m. You look could upon Triton as a nominal replacement of the ACF albeit in another contextual capability form. A belated replacement for a 2nd tier minus combat aircraft with a 1st tier plus Maritime ISR capability.

Each Triton will screen more than 7 million square kilometres in a single mission 28 hour mission. It will have the ability to perform 24/7 intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance with a range of 3700 kilometres miles will allow our manned ISR/MPA aircraft and surface vessels to concentrate on their core missions.

In my view NZ could work with the ADF in their platform support and sustainment project and that option exists also for the P-8. If 3 (minimum operative baseline of airframes) or 4 (ideal package) the NZDF would be getting whatever way you slice and dice it a massive increase in ISR capability into its area of interest (which is a massive part to the earths maritime surface that we only currently cover a fraction of with respect to the P-3K2) at a substantial cost advantage over time. With a NZ MOB and the potential to FOB a Triton off the runways at Raro and Niue it simply is transformational with respect to the BAMS capabilities of the NZDF and our Allies in the security of the wider region.

Supplemented with our P-3K2 and later P-8 aircraft we would be an ISR generator of global significance. With a combined ADF/NZDF Anzac mix of 12 P-8 and 11 Triton aircraft hooked up to WGS, together we would be able to cover halfway way across the Indian Ocean, the Southern Ocean and half way across the Southern Pacific such is the dimensionality of why this should important to us.

Cheers MrC
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
For another reason why fitting the P3Cs with Harpoon may not have been pursued, take a look at this recent press release from the US govt on their recent Harpoon sale to Brazil.

http://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/brazil_14-09.pdf

The money quote is
The Government of Brazil has requested a possible sale of 16 AGM-84L Harpoon Block II Missiles, 4 CATM-
84L Harpoon Block II Captive Air Training Missiles, containers, spare and repair parts, support and test
equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S.
Government and contractor representatives’ technical assistance, engineering and logistics support services, and
other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $169 million.
That's $169 mil USD for 16 missiles, plus training and all the add-ons. As near as dammit $200 mil kiwi.

Hell, we could buy the littoral warfare support ship for that, or 3/4 of a tanker. Either of which would get a lot more use.

If these costs are in any way comparable to what NZ would face, I'd say we have better ways to spend the money.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
The rewiring of the P-3's was proposed and it was not going to cost a hell of a lot extra to intergrate this into the project. This option was not signed off at the political level.
I don't know enough about the ins and outs of what was proposed to understand fully what happened, but I think it would be worthwhile reflecting on a couple of possibilities.

One possible reason is ideological. It's entirely possible that the government of the day didn't see an armed role for aircraft. However, I doubt this in itself would see a political intervention dictating how the wings were wired (it's unlikely to have been a distinctly identifiable part of the aircraft rewiring).

It would be hard to rule out timing either. On a project risk management basis, introducing a new capability and the subsequent integration issues into the mission systems may have been seen as an avoidable risk in a project that was primarily based on restoring and enhancing a C3I platform.

Policy and doctrine seem the most likely reason to me. A response that would require a long range anti-ship missile is only conceivable in the output classes relating to major changes in regional security, where the territorial integrity of Australia or other aligned states is directly challenged, or where trade routes are threatened. In those scenarios its inconceivable that you'd be using a P-3 in a maritime strike role by itself, purely for doctrine reasons. Western doctrine typically calls for coordinated missile strikes from multiple axis arriving on target simultaneously. That simply can't be achieved by one P-3 - it's the wrong tool for the job, and is too expensive with too many crew to risk.

On the other hand, if you're Brazil and your planning included the possibility of your maritime patrol platform having a chance encounter with a hostile neighbor's submarine on the surface, you'd be silly not to have capability to take the shot at it - it might be the only chance you get. If the RNZAF was still seriously in the business of hunting submarines it might be a useful capability, but it's not.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
For another reason why fitting the P3Cs with Harpoon may not have been pursued, take a look at this recent press release from the US govt on their recent Harpoon sale to Brazil.

http://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/brazil_14-09.pdf

The money quote is


That's $169 mil USD for 16 missiles, plus training and all the add-ons. As near as dammit $200 mil kiwi.

Hell, we could buy the littoral warfare support ship for that, or 3/4 of a tanker. Either of which would get a lot more use.

If these costs are in any way comparable to what NZ would face, I'd say we have better ways to spend the money.
Keeping in mind that the deal includes training, parts/spares, and "related" logistical support. Going off pricing mentioned at Naval-technology the per-missile price for an AGM-84L Harpoon Block II is between USD$1.6 mil - 2.0 mil. and that is based off fixed price contracts with Boeing in 2012 and 2011 respectively. This would be that the cost for just the missiles for Brazil would be ~USD$32 mil. or only about 19% of the total contract cost. That leads me to believe that the support package being purchased either covers significantly more than the article appears to suggest, or that the training and support will be for more than just 16 missiles.

I don't know enough about the ins and outs of what was proposed to understand fully what happened, but I think it would be worthwhile reflecting on a couple of possibilities.

One possible reason is ideological. It's entirely possible that the government of the day didn't see an armed role for aircraft. However, I doubt this in itself would see a political intervention dictating how the wings were wired (it's unlikely to have been a distinctly identifiable part of the aircraft rewiring).

It would be hard to rule out timing either. On a project risk management basis, introducing a new capability and the subsequent integration issues into the mission systems may have been seen as an avoidable risk in a project that was primarily based on restoring and enhancing a C3I platform.

Policy and doctrine seem the most likely reason to me. A response that would require a long range anti-ship missile is only conceivable in the output classes relating to major changes in regional security, where the territorial integrity of Australia or other aligned states is directly challenged, or where trade routes are threatened. In those scenarios its inconceivable that you'd be using a P-3 in a maritime strike role by itself, purely for doctrine reasons. Western doctrine typically calls for coordinated missile strikes from multiple axis arriving on target simultaneously. That simply can't be achieved by one P-3 - it's the wrong tool for the job, and is too expensive with too many crew to risk.

On the other hand, if you're Brazil and your planning included the possibility of your maritime patrol platform having a chance encounter with a hostile neighbor's submarine on the surface, you'd be silly not to have capability to take the shot at it - it might be the only chance you get. If the RNZAF was still seriously in the business of hunting submarines it might be a useful capability, but it's not.
A few things about this, that people seem to either not be understanding, or missing. The wings themselves AFAIK were/are fitted with MIL-STD-1553 wiring, before and after the re-winging. What was not done during the re-winging was to upgrade the wiring to the MIL-STD-1760 electrical interface. What this means in terms of service capability is that the P-3K2 can carry/drop/launch external stores like Harpoon (Block I), Mk 82, etc. Where the lack of a MIL-STD-1760 interface gets felt is the ability to use the more advanced munition capabilities, targeting pods, etc. A P-3K2 hypothetically could carry and launch a Harpoon Block II at a target, but detection, targeting and guidance would rest solely with sensors and computers onboard the Harpoon itself. The much more capable sensors and computers aboard the Orion would have no communication or control over the Harpoon, because the interface between aircraft and missile Is incompatible, preventing the aircraft avionics from 'talking' to the Harpoon.

As for the notion that not including an interface upgrade was to reduce programme risk over adding new capabilities... I personally doubt that for a number of reasons. For one thing, the change itself has to do with the wiring interface, and the change would be to a newer standard for the connections, not something particularly costly, difficult, or risky. The other is that by changing to the new interface, it did not add new capability to the P-3K2 on its own, but it would allow the Kiwi Orions more flexibility in the future for capabilities.

The new (like around and in service for a decade or so now) external stores like JDAM's, PGM's, fuel drop tanks, targeting pods, etc all use the -1760 interface.

By not having those interfaces changed, the ability for the P-3K2 to keep up with new developments is made more difficult and costly. Granted they could still get the interfaces updated, but it would require removing the wings and opening them and parts of the airframe up.

In many respects I equate the refusal or failure to upgrade the interfaces to being the same as a homeowner who does a full scale renovation and remodel of their home. Complete to the point that their home was stripped down to the studs and framing, but the homeowner refuses to have the electrical service in a significant portion of their home upgraded to current standards, instead keeping the 1970's era wiring, ungrounded sockets, fuses instead of circuit breakers, no GFCI's, etc.

Given that the risky and expensive part (re-winging) was already being done, a failure to keep potential future options open by updating the interfaces at the same time seems almost to be a deliberate action to limit future capabilities.

-Cheers
 
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